One day I hope to pay only '13.9% tax'

[quade 3]

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Sure, it sounds like it comes from a worldly and wise tough guy, but it's a bullshit philosophy to live by for humanity.

And just *WHERE* did I claim it was a philosophy for humanity, pray tell? Maybe you should stick to playing the ball instead of the player, Mr. Moderator.

Do not flatter yourself. I wasn't talking about you. I do not see you as "worldly and wise."

Nice PA, Mr. Person who's SUPPOSED to enforce the rules.

Hey man, if you're going to make assumptions about my posts and attack me for them, well . . . you leave me no option but to point out the realities of my words.

You made direct mention of me instead of making it a general statement - "I don't really want to know you" instead of "I don't really want to know a person like that".
I wouldn't expect someone who is supposedly a wordsmith to make elementary mistakes like that.

Mike, we've had this discussion before. You, Mike, seem to be confused by the indefinite pronoun, "you." You, Mike, might want to read up on it; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_pronoun

My use is perfectly acceptable and if you, Mike, can't understand it. Well, I can't help you, Mike.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,400]

>Right now that's absolutely not the case between income earned through labor
>versus income earned thought investments.

I just don't get why there's an issue with them being different. I pay state and federal income tax; they have different tax brackets and different rates. I pay a different rate on my "first" dollar than on my "last" dollar for both. I pay sales tax and excise taxes; none of them are the same rates. If I contribute to my 401k I pay a different tax rate as a result. My house changes my tax rate. The income I make as a skydiving contractor is taxed differently than the income I make as an engineer. I am taxed differently on income I make on short term capital gains, long term capital gains and salaried income.

I don't see why any of them have to be made equal to be made "fair." Indeed, since we only charge people who make less than $8000-$12000 10% federal income tax, that seems more than fair. They pay far less than those capital gainers pay.

[Jockeyshifter63 0]

Hey, I'm not opposed to a properly calculated flat tax. Let's just make sure we apply it to everything equally. Right now that's absolutely not the case between income earned through labor versus income earned thought investments.
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Quade,
Let me take a stab at this. I started quite literally working in the proverbial ditch with a shovel. Lots of hard work and very little play later I am pretty comfortable. I have both earned income from what I pay myself and I also have investment income. The investment income comes from within my own businesses and in the markets.
After I make the money I earn I then pay taxes at the higher rate. I take what is left (after bills) and invest it. In other words I put that money at risk. For keeping that money in play I am given a bit of a tax break on any profit it earns. That [investment] money and all the other investment money is what capitalizes most of the businesses in this country. These businesses employ people and pay taxes etc, etc, etc. I could just stick it in a can and bury it. Very little risk in that and it helps no one, plus I'll never pay any tax on it ever again unless I spend it.
My point is that the tax law is designed to get that money back in play and working for all of us. I believe that is the idea behind the lower investment income tax rate. In my opinion it stands a much better chance of doing good by creating a job or helping a business grow than it would by giving it to the govt as a tax. It isn't designed to screw the little guy but to eventually help the little guy get a job buy a house and try to become successful himself.
BTW I too am in favor of a flat earned income tax (10%) on all the population, but I will always be in favor of a lower rate for investment income in order to stimulate all business.

[rehmwa 2]

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I will always be in favor of a lower rate for investment income in order to stimulate all business.

"I will always be in favor of a lower rate for investment income in order to subsidize Wall Street" this is what I see that phrase

we should stop picking winners and losers




one thing, changing the rules to tax ALL income the same means a flat tax with no credits, no deductions, EVERYBODY PAYS, no mortgage deduction, no tax deferment, no big corporate 'special' taxes (oil companies), no big corporate subsidies, no 'encouraging' green energy, no deductions for food, clothing, anything, no benefits for any income bracket high or low, etc etc etc etc

to do it truly, everybody loses their pet benefits


understand THAT, and then lets see how many people REALLY have the stomach to do it all out, and for real

that's fair

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

Your example was unclear and your sloppy use of language led to the misunderstanding.

That, of course, was usage utilizing the indefinite pronoun and does not constitute a personal attack.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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Your example was unclear and your sloppy use of language led to the misunderstanding.
That, of course, was usage utilizing the indefinite pronoun and does not constitute a personal attack.

Oh Mikey, you're so adorable when you get all flustered and try to justify your outrage. Really it's like looking at a cute, little, fluffy pussy cat.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jockeyshifter63 0]

I don't have a problem investing my money in wall street, as long as I pick the right companies. Pull all the money out of wall street and you will see this country drop into the shitter in a heartbeat. Any idea how many businesses and jobs depend on those publicly traded companies staying capitalized? Almost every person with a retirement is in "Wall Street". If the Traded Companies are strong then American business is strong, the economy is strong and we all win. (BTW that is not a guarantee but it sure makes it easier for someone to become successful if the business climate in America is strong).

Now, that doesn't mean I don't have a problem with giving tax money to bail out specific companies. I agree the govt shouldn't be in the business of picking winners and losers. To me that is a problem and a whole different topic.

As far as the second part; your comments about the flat tax, I have absolutely no problem with any of what you mention. In fact I do believe that is what a flat tax is all about.

[mnealtx 0]

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Your example was unclear and your sloppy use of language led to the misunderstanding.
That, of course, was usage utilizing the indefinite pronoun and does not constitute a personal attack.

Oh Mikey, you're so adorable when you get all flustered and try to justify your outrage. Really it's like looking at a cute, little, fluffy pussy cat.

Don't give up your day job for the Kreskin gig, Paul.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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Your example was unclear and your sloppy use of language led to the misunderstanding.
That, of course, was usage utilizing the indefinite pronoun and does not constitute a personal attack.

Oh Mikey, you're so adorable when you get all flustered and try to justify your outrage. Really it's like looking at a cute, little, fluffy pussy cat.

any chance you could flex those moderator powers and strip out of this thread these silly banters between you and him over ongoing abuse of forum rules? (may meet letter of law, but certainly not spirit.)

You two are like pigs in the mud (and it's not really mud).

While you're at it, why don't you call it a project to educate pigs on the internet, and deduct the time spent on it as a business loss.

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't have a problem investing my money in wall street, as long as I pick the right companies. Pull all the money out of wall street and you will see this country drop into the shitter in a heartbeat.

I don't see any advocate of "pulling all the money out of Wall Street". I do see advocates saying tax the gains at the same rate as any other income.

It's "less" incentive (less artificial incentive actually). But the free market still exists, and people will still do their research and invest where they think it's profitable.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diablopilot 2]

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So now you have to MAKE the money the "right way".

Nope. Read it again. The remark was about having equal opportunity and being taxed fairly.

1) We don't all have an equal opportunity to make money the way he did.

I must have missed that in the Bill of Rights. Ill go back and look for it....

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2) Investment income shouldn't be considered "special" money and taxed at a different rate.

Go ahead and see how interested in investing people get when you raise the rates.

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BTW, bolding you text doesn't make it more valid either.

Neither does whining about your lot in life.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mirage62 0]

Quad, could you please explain HOW it was unfair the way Romney made his money. I'm really trying to understand your stance, but so far all you've come up wth is just bs. You write well and you print a LOT but so far....well nothing.

Romney made the money - it appears - and invested it and pays the legal tax rate but you indicate that he isn't a good person because of that.

You have it better than others in life, aren't you a good person?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[quade 3]

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Quad, could you please explain HOW it was unfair the way Romney made his money.

For about the bajillionth time . . . it's not unfair how he MADE the money, but rather how the money is TAXED.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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Quad, could you please explain HOW it was unfair the way Romney made his money.

For about the bajillionth time . . . it's not unfair how he MADE the money, but rather how the money is TAXED.

It's taxed the same for anyone that invests...how is that unfair?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

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Quad, could you please explain HOW it was unfair the way Romney made his money.

For about the bajillionth time . . . it's not unfair how he MADE the money, but rather how the money is TAXED.

It's taxed the same for anyone that invests...how is that unfair?

There is little doubt that the tax code is a mess

But in the end it is not about what is fair but rather, the big green monster and how it eats some people up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Quad, could you please explain HOW it was unfair the way Romney made his money.

For about the bajillionth time . . . it's not unfair how he MADE the money, but rather how the money is TAXED.

Would you want retirement income such as IRA's and pensions taxed at the same rate as other investment income? Suppose someone decided to retire at age 40?

[mirage62 0]

"1) We don't all have an equal opportunity to make money the way he did."

and

"it's not unfair how he MADE the money, but rather how the money is TAXED."

Which statement are you standing behind - if either? Seems to me that you said he had and unfair advantage making the money (But you never said what it was) And NOW your saying it was fair.

Quade your just all over the place on this one.

FWIW I admire successful people. They pay a fare share now, they may actually need to pay more to help the county out, along with spending cuts.

Oh yeah and using made up words like "bajillionth" won't get your point across any better.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rehmwa 2]

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Would you want retirement income such as IRA's and pensions taxed at the same rate as other investment income? Suppose someone decided to retire at age 40?

Tax ALL types of income the same.

I think we actually should move in that direction and it will affect the rich, the poor, the middle class (of course it will, even it were only applied in a sloppy patchwork to even just one group like the "rich").

We need to realize, that all the 'special' considerations have been applied across the spectrum of taxpayers and each and every one is Keynesian (how's it working out so far?) and each and every one would likely have been fine without. But now we are stuck with them.

yes, I love my mortgage deduction, yes, I love my 401K and my daughter's 529 college fund, etc etc etc.

but, no one has the balls to totally revamp the system, so to slowly clean up the code would take a very long time

it's pretty unlikely, that's why this discussion, to me, is likely interesting, but moot.


Sure, they'll hit some scapegoat with a big change, but it'll be a small group directly hit and then the shit hits the fan when the consequences propagate to everybody else.


short answer - I'd LOVE a flat tax RATE on everybody, that starts with the 1st dollar and finishes with the last dollar. With no deductions, no subsidies, no penalties, no special rates regardless of how the money was collected - nothing nada, zilch


I also wonder how many people complaining about the 15% cap gains rate are paying 0% on their tip or cash income????? it is a skydiver's site

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Would you want retirement income such as IRA's and pensions taxed at the same rate as other investment income? Suppose someone decided to retire at age 40?

Tax ALL types of income the same.

I think we actually should move in that direction and it will affect the rich, the poor, the middle class (of course it will, even it were only applied in a sloppy patchwork to even just one group like the "rich").

The if it's taxed one time as income, and then invested, should the income from the investment then be taxed as dditional income? If so that brings us back to whether we should tax all :capital gains" including retirement income at the same level.

We need to realize, that all the 'special' considerations have been applied across the spectrum of taxpayers and each and every one is Keynesian (how's it working out so far?) and each and every one would likely have been fine without. But now we are stuck with them.

yes, I love my mortgage deduction, yes, I love my 401K and my daughter's 529 college fund, etc etc etc.

but, no one has the balls to totally revamp the system, so to slowly clean up the code would take a very long time

Agreed, but changes always take time and can be painful until adjusted correctly for any unanticipated inequities I'd really like for someone to get the ball rolling on a better tax system instead of all the jibber-jabber.

it's pretty unlikely, that's why this discussion, to me, is likely interesting, but moot.

Well, there's alway Hope it will Change.


Sure, they'll hit some scapegoat with a big change, but it'll be a small group directly hit and then the shit hits the fan when the consequences propagate to everybody else.


short answer - I'd LOVE a flat tax RATE on everybody, that starts with the 1st dollar and finishes with the last dollar. With no deductions, no subsidies, no penalties, no special rates regardless of how the money was collected - nothing nada, zilch

Not going to happen as long as the Lobbyists control our Government.


I also wonder how many people complaining about the 15% cap gains rate are paying 0% on their tip or cash income????? it is a skydiver's site

Oh, I suspect that's quite rampant.

[rehmwa 2]

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The if it's taxed one time as income, and then invested, should the income from the investment then be taxed as dditional income? If so that brings us back to whether we should tax all :capital gains" including retirement income at the same level.

I would think just the profits are true income. You invest $100 and, when you sell, you get $150, then you have $50 of income - tax it just like you made it digging ditches.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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The if it's taxed one time as income, and then invested, should the income from the investment then be taxed as dditional income? If so that brings us back to whether we should tax all :capital gains" including retirement income at the same level.

I would think just the profits are true income. You invest $100 and, when you sell, you get $150, then you have $50 of income - tax it just like you made it digging ditches.

So would you apply the same tax rate to retirement income? After all, it's investment income, too.

[rehmwa 2]

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The if it's taxed one time as income, and then invested, should the income from the investment then be taxed as dditional income? If so that brings us back to whether we should tax all :capital gains" including retirement income at the same level.

I would think just the profits are true income. You invest $100 and, when you sell, you get $150, then you have $50 of income - tax it just like you made it digging ditches.

So would you apply the same tax rate to retirement income? After all, it's investment income, too.

why don't you just assume that when I've said tax 'all types' income the 'same' about fifty different times in 4 different threads, that I mean it in this philosophical discussion.

then you can tell me either: I'm cruel and heartless to "insert special group here" people. or;

that I don't understand just how complicated ((the government purposely and needlessly designed)) the tax code and I just don't understand why "insert special interest group" NEEDS to be treated unequally for the sake of the mankind.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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The if it's taxed one time as income, and then invested, should the income from the investment then be taxed as dditional income? If so that brings us back to whether we should tax all :capital gains" including retirement income at the same level.

I would think just the profits are true income. You invest $100 and, when you sell, you get $150, then you have $50 of income - tax it just like you made it digging ditches.

So would you apply the same tax rate to retirement income? After all, it's investment income, too.

why don't you just assume that when I've said tax 'all types' income the 'same' about fifty different times in 4 different threads, that I mean it in this philosophical discussion.

Because I don't read every post of every thread.

then you can tell me either: I'm cruel and heartless to "insert special group here" people. or;

OK, you are cruel heartless.

that I don't understand just how complicated ((the government purposely and needlessly designed)) the tax code and I just don't understand why "insert special interest group" NEEDS to be treated unequally for the sake of the mankind.

Why do I have to make a choice? Can't I accuse you of all those things? What, do you think you are special or something?

[rehmwa 2]

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Why do I have to make a choice? Can't I accuse you of all those things? What, do you think you are special or something?

I am special - can I get a lower tax rate than my neighbor?


for the children

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Why do I have to make a choice? Can't I accuse you of all those things? What, do you think you are special or something?

I am special - can I get a lower tax rate than my neighbor?

There's an app. for that.