billvon 2,406 #201 January 25, 2012 >Yet in one instance you opt to be able to save yourself, and in another you >don't. Inconsistent. And some of us get training that allows us to save ourselves without guns. And yet some of us can't be bothered, and need to carry a dangerous device instead. Odd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #202 January 25, 2012 Quote>Yet in one instance you opt to be able to save yourself, and in another you >don't. Inconsistent. And some of us get training that allows us to save ourselves without guns. And yet some of us can't be bothered, and need to carry a dangerous device instead. Odd. What training do you mean? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #203 January 25, 2012 >What training do you mean? For me it was Taekwondo, although I think if I had to do it over it would have been Aikido. There was a 60 year old woman in the Aikido class that met in the same dojo we did; no one could touch her and she never broke a sweat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #204 January 25, 2012 Quote>What training do you mean? For me it was Taekwondo, although I think if I had to do it over it would have been Aikido. There was a 60 year old woman in the Aikido class that met in the same dojo we did; no one could touch her and she never broke a sweat. I received a Black Belt in Tae kwon do back in 1978...fought full contact for a few years and did fairly well. I have found myself in situations that even with that training & experience I've been woefully over matched. It's great for single opponent unarmed conflicts, against two or more or someone that IS armed it's not much of an equalizer. Older & wiser I do take precautions of consciously trying to stay far away from situations that could put me in harms way. I also feel that being 'older' I tend to project a bit more vulnerability that I use to at say 25... I keep myself aware of my surrounds and try not to increase the odds of something bad happening. A necessity for survival but an infringement on my 'freedoms' so to speak. It's a sad statement on society that one must exclude areas or times of travel, but it is what it is. Self defense training though beneficial is not an effective deterrence in most conflict situations, having a firearm is more of one as is simple good judgement. I rely on all three because I can, I always try NOT to ever be a victim...most times there aren't any do-overs when it comes to saving your life. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #205 January 25, 2012 QuoteThe odds vary, but the principle of being prepared to save your life remains the same. Yet in one instance you opt to be able to save yourself, and in another you don't. Inconsistent. Do you have a fire extinguisher in your home? How many house fires have you had? Prepared is better than dead. agreed one exception - the damn CO detector in the damn camper - the thing goes off for about everything BUT CO. Usually in the middle of the night, and usually won't clear.....EVER disconnect that thing, I'll take my chances ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeJD 0 #206 January 25, 2012 Quote The odds vary, but the principle of being prepared to save your life remains the same. Yet in one instance you opt to be able to save yourself, and in another you don't. Inconsistent. It'd be inconsistent if I judged the likelihood of threat from an assailant to equal that of my main parachute malfunctioning - or indeed if I judged the outcome of pulling a gun as predictable as the outcome of pulling a reserve handle. Clearly I don't. Surely the balance of risk vs reward, or risk vs inconvenience, is what counts here. We all play that game, all the time. Your judgement differs from mine, and that's fine. Quote Do you have a fire extinguisher in your home? No, but I probably should, and thanks for the prompt - I'll get hold of one soon. I'm far more likely to need an extinguisher than a handgun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #207 January 25, 2012 >Self defense training though beneficial is not an effective deterrence in most >conflict situations, having a firearm is more of one as is simple good judgement. Agreed on all three. Any martial art is a great thing to have as a baseline, because no one can use it against you, no one can take it away from you, it's always there and it's unlikely to be misused by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Firearms are good additions to that provided you have the appropriate trainign and take appropriate care when carrying it. And good judgment is more important than either one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #208 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuote>Yet in one instance you opt to be able to save yourself, and in another you >don't. Inconsistent. And some of us get training that allows us to save ourselves without guns. And yet some of us can't be bothered, and need to carry a dangerous device instead. Odd. What training do you mean? Chuck Norris, of course! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #209 January 25, 2012 Quote>Yet in one instance you opt to be able to save yourself, and in another you >don't. Inconsistent. And some of us get training that allows us to save ourselves without guns. How's that work out for the 80 year old, 90 lb granny facing a 20 year old, 200 lb criminal? QuoteAnd yet some of us can't be bothered, and need to carry a dangerous device instead. And yet some would rather have the old, weak and disabled at the mercy of the young, strong and hale. QuoteOdd. Indeed.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #210 January 25, 2012 >How's that work out for the 80 year old, 90 lb granny facing a 20 year old, 200 lb criminal? If she had the skills of the old woman in the Aikido class I mentioned - he would likely move on to an easier mark after finding himself unexpectedly on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #211 January 25, 2012 Surely the balance of risk vs reward, or risk vs inconvenience, is what counts here. We all play that game, all the time. Your judgement differs from mine, and that's fine. Quote Logical & well stated...no argument there. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #212 January 25, 2012 Quote>How's that work out for the 80 year old, 90 lb granny facing a 20 year old, 200 lb criminal? If she had the skills of the old woman in the Aikido class I mentioned - he would likely move on to an easier mark after finding himself unexpectedly on the ground. *IF* IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years of training to get to that level.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #213 January 25, 2012 >IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #214 January 25, 2012 Quote>IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #215 January 25, 2012 >And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker. As she is if they snatch her purse with the gun in it. And then they have a neat weapon to use against, say, JerseyShawn. No system is perfect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #216 January 25, 2012 Quote It'd be inconsistent if I judged the likelihood of threat from an assailant to equal that of my main parachute malfunctioning - or indeed if I judged the outcome of pulling a gun as predictable as the outcome of pulling a reserve handle. Clearly I don't. On point 1 - UK victimization rates show clearly that crime is more likely than main parachute failure (unless your packing sucks). But on point 2, I'll agree that UK deaths show the failed main to be a bigger threat to your life. No judgement (reliable data) on comparison of substantial physical or mental injuries. But it is clear that you do not have attractive options, esp when you're no longer a young male. It's a bit easier for me to say, "why worry," than it is for my girl friend who is a foot shorter and 100lbs lighter. The problem with averages is that it presumes all situations are the same. If you live in a sketchier neighborhood, the average is not reliable. If you have a stalker ex, the average is not reliable. 10x so if you're smaller than the ex. If someone recently threatened you, the average is not reliable. The last two are situations where I would want to have the option to carry, and might do so in spite of California laws against it. You have a little more control over where you live/work, but not everyone can live or work in the best neighborhood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #217 January 25, 2012 Quote>And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker. As she is if they snatch her purse with the gun in it. And then they have a neat weapon to use against, say, JerseyShawn. No system is perfect. That assumes the weapon is in her purse and they get close enough to snatch it. I'm in favor of a system that anyone can use and doesn't rely upon the attacker being within arm's reach.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #218 January 25, 2012 Quote>IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. At 80 years, esp at that weight, there are factors beyond her control. All the skill in the world can't overcome ostereoperosis. And with the slow rate of healing, minor injuries sustained in a fight are more substantial. It's use it or lose it, but suffer a broken hip and many never recover from the downtime. I'd prefer the gun - much better odds of no one getting hurt as the bad guy runs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #219 January 25, 2012 Quote >Self defense training though beneficial is not an effective deterrence in most >conflict situations, having a firearm is more of one as is simple good judgement. Agreed on all three. Any martial art is a great thing to have as a baseline, because no one can use it against you, no one can take it away from you, it's always there and it's unlikely to be misused by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Firearms are good additions to that provided you have the appropriate trainign and take appropriate care when carrying it. And good judgment is more important than either one. I often wonder why that is such a hard concept for some to grasp. It's not universal (good judgement) but it is something that 'should' always be carried and can be utilized to avoid/prevent/defuse 95% of situations. Although able I don't see the necessity of carrying deadly force at all times, and to be quite honest I know people that DO, that really shouldn't. I wish 'good judgement' was as easy to get as a firearm sometimes! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #220 January 25, 2012 Quote>How's that work out for the 80 year old, 90 lb granny facing a 20 year old, 200 lb criminal? If she had the skills of the old woman in the Aikido class I mentioned - he would likely move on to an easier mark after finding himself unexpectedly on the ground. I took Korean and Japanese Karate for a couple years. I used to read all the Black Belt Magazines. My favorite movie back then was "Kung Fu". Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee were my heroes. After a while it all almost seemed real.... We never made contact when we sparred in Karate. Many many of the moves were fakey and unrealistic. Maybe full contact karate would be different...but I truly feel that a lot of the karate that is taught would be good for nothing but getting you in trouble. I watched a guy let out a scary holler once. He put himself into his best karate stance. The other guy then proceeded to pummel the hell out of him. His karate didn't work. I'd like to see an 80 year old woman take on a young buck. We need to get real here.... Now this ground fighting that the cops do.The cage match wrestling, and jujitsu...Their is nothing fake about that. I wouldn't mind learning some of that. But for a woman, or an old fart, or even most people, a gun would be a much better defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #221 January 25, 2012 >Maybe full contact karate would be different...but I truly feel that a lot of the >karate that is taught would be good for nothing but getting you in trouble. Which is why if I could go back and do it again I'd take aikido. If you ever get a chance to watch someone good I highly recommend it. It's not a way to attack someone else - it's a way to make sure their attacks don't work. Indeed, the only reason there _are_ attacks in aikido is you need a realistic way to practice. >I'd like to see an 80 year old woman take on a young buck. We Well, like I said I've seen 60 year old women take on young bucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #222 January 26, 2012 Quote You lug around a 10-lb reserve parachute every time you jump based upon the small chance that you might need it. Why not just leave that behind? Think how much more free you'll be in the sky without all that extra dead weight on your back! Geez, John. You're making me wonder just how much stuff you lug around "based upon the small chance that you might need it". I have a visual: Trunk loaded to the point of rear bumper dragging. Large, extra large backpack. Ruck sack Steamer trunk Bandoliers ...and more. Something tells me I don't want to see your garage and attic. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #223 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote >IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker. There will always be predator and prey.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #224 January 26, 2012 QuoteGeez, John. You're making me wonder just how much stuff you lug around "based upon the small chance that you might need it". I have a visual: Trunk loaded to the point of rear bumper dragging... Being prepared for normal emergencies is not something for which anyone should feel the need to apologize or feel guilty, nor is that reason for others to make fun of those who choose to be prepared. I spend some time in the boonies. My trunk includes things like a bottle of water, toilet paper, quart of oil, spare serpentine drive belt, tow strap, tool bag and tire inflator. I also live in hurricane country, where power failures can last for a week or more, and during those seasons it's prudent to have things like a supply of water and canned goods, and spare gasoline. If you don't want to take those kinds of precautions, that's okay with me. If you're unprepared and have a breakdown, maybe you'll get lucky and someone like me will come along and be able to help you out. When the zombie apocolypse happens, I might even be willing to loan you a rifle. If you say "pretty please". And who will be laughing then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #225 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote I'd rather have and not need than need and not have Could say the same thing about a personal lightning conductor, but I wouldn't want to lug one around. Never met anyone struck by lightning, or saved by such a thing. Know a few people who would not be here had they not been carrying as well. No one plans on having to shoot a bad guy. And I don't plan on having a car wreck either. But I still put my seat belt on.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Next Page 9 of 13 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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mnealtx 0 #212 January 25, 2012 Quote>How's that work out for the 80 year old, 90 lb granny facing a 20 year old, 200 lb criminal? If she had the skills of the old woman in the Aikido class I mentioned - he would likely move on to an easier mark after finding himself unexpectedly on the ground. *IF* IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years of training to get to that level.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #213 January 25, 2012 >IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #214 January 25, 2012 Quote>IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #215 January 25, 2012 >And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker. As she is if they snatch her purse with the gun in it. And then they have a neat weapon to use against, say, JerseyShawn. No system is perfect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #216 January 25, 2012 Quote It'd be inconsistent if I judged the likelihood of threat from an assailant to equal that of my main parachute malfunctioning - or indeed if I judged the outcome of pulling a gun as predictable as the outcome of pulling a reserve handle. Clearly I don't. On point 1 - UK victimization rates show clearly that crime is more likely than main parachute failure (unless your packing sucks). But on point 2, I'll agree that UK deaths show the failed main to be a bigger threat to your life. No judgement (reliable data) on comparison of substantial physical or mental injuries. But it is clear that you do not have attractive options, esp when you're no longer a young male. It's a bit easier for me to say, "why worry," than it is for my girl friend who is a foot shorter and 100lbs lighter. The problem with averages is that it presumes all situations are the same. If you live in a sketchier neighborhood, the average is not reliable. If you have a stalker ex, the average is not reliable. 10x so if you're smaller than the ex. If someone recently threatened you, the average is not reliable. The last two are situations where I would want to have the option to carry, and might do so in spite of California laws against it. You have a little more control over where you live/work, but not everyone can live or work in the best neighborhood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #217 January 25, 2012 Quote>And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker. As she is if they snatch her purse with the gun in it. And then they have a neat weapon to use against, say, JerseyShawn. No system is perfect. That assumes the weapon is in her purse and they get close enough to snatch it. I'm in favor of a system that anyone can use and doesn't rely upon the attacker being within arm's reach.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #218 January 25, 2012 Quote>IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. At 80 years, esp at that weight, there are factors beyond her control. All the skill in the world can't overcome ostereoperosis. And with the slow rate of healing, minor injuries sustained in a fight are more substantial. It's use it or lose it, but suffer a broken hip and many never recover from the downtime. I'd prefer the gun - much better odds of no one getting hurt as the bad guy runs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #219 January 25, 2012 Quote >Self defense training though beneficial is not an effective deterrence in most >conflict situations, having a firearm is more of one as is simple good judgement. Agreed on all three. Any martial art is a great thing to have as a baseline, because no one can use it against you, no one can take it away from you, it's always there and it's unlikely to be misused by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Firearms are good additions to that provided you have the appropriate trainign and take appropriate care when carrying it. And good judgment is more important than either one. I often wonder why that is such a hard concept for some to grasp. It's not universal (good judgement) but it is something that 'should' always be carried and can be utilized to avoid/prevent/defuse 95% of situations. Although able I don't see the necessity of carrying deadly force at all times, and to be quite honest I know people that DO, that really shouldn't. I wish 'good judgement' was as easy to get as a firearm sometimes! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #220 January 25, 2012 Quote>How's that work out for the 80 year old, 90 lb granny facing a 20 year old, 200 lb criminal? If she had the skills of the old woman in the Aikido class I mentioned - he would likely move on to an easier mark after finding himself unexpectedly on the ground. I took Korean and Japanese Karate for a couple years. I used to read all the Black Belt Magazines. My favorite movie back then was "Kung Fu". Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee were my heroes. After a while it all almost seemed real.... We never made contact when we sparred in Karate. Many many of the moves were fakey and unrealistic. Maybe full contact karate would be different...but I truly feel that a lot of the karate that is taught would be good for nothing but getting you in trouble. I watched a guy let out a scary holler once. He put himself into his best karate stance. The other guy then proceeded to pummel the hell out of him. His karate didn't work. I'd like to see an 80 year old woman take on a young buck. We need to get real here.... Now this ground fighting that the cops do.The cage match wrestling, and jujitsu...Their is nothing fake about that. I wouldn't mind learning some of that. But for a woman, or an old fart, or even most people, a gun would be a much better defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #221 January 25, 2012 >Maybe full contact karate would be different...but I truly feel that a lot of the >karate that is taught would be good for nothing but getting you in trouble. Which is why if I could go back and do it again I'd take aikido. If you ever get a chance to watch someone good I highly recommend it. It's not a way to attack someone else - it's a way to make sure their attacks don't work. Indeed, the only reason there _are_ attacks in aikido is you need a realistic way to practice. >I'd like to see an 80 year old woman take on a young buck. We Well, like I said I've seen 60 year old women take on young bucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #222 January 26, 2012 Quote You lug around a 10-lb reserve parachute every time you jump based upon the small chance that you might need it. Why not just leave that behind? Think how much more free you'll be in the sky without all that extra dead weight on your back! Geez, John. You're making me wonder just how much stuff you lug around "based upon the small chance that you might need it". I have a visual: Trunk loaded to the point of rear bumper dragging. Large, extra large backpack. Ruck sack Steamer trunk Bandoliers ...and more. Something tells me I don't want to see your garage and attic. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #223 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote >IF she was physically capable of gaining the skills.... IF she could afford the years >of training to get to that level. Yep. Some things take effort to learn to do. And if she can't do those things, she's still at the mercy of her attacker. There will always be predator and prey.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #224 January 26, 2012 QuoteGeez, John. You're making me wonder just how much stuff you lug around "based upon the small chance that you might need it". I have a visual: Trunk loaded to the point of rear bumper dragging... Being prepared for normal emergencies is not something for which anyone should feel the need to apologize or feel guilty, nor is that reason for others to make fun of those who choose to be prepared. I spend some time in the boonies. My trunk includes things like a bottle of water, toilet paper, quart of oil, spare serpentine drive belt, tow strap, tool bag and tire inflator. I also live in hurricane country, where power failures can last for a week or more, and during those seasons it's prudent to have things like a supply of water and canned goods, and spare gasoline. If you don't want to take those kinds of precautions, that's okay with me. If you're unprepared and have a breakdown, maybe you'll get lucky and someone like me will come along and be able to help you out. When the zombie apocolypse happens, I might even be willing to loan you a rifle. If you say "pretty please". And who will be laughing then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #225 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote I'd rather have and not need than need and not have Could say the same thing about a personal lightning conductor, but I wouldn't want to lug one around. Never met anyone struck by lightning, or saved by such a thing. Know a few people who would not be here had they not been carrying as well. No one plans on having to shoot a bad guy. And I don't plan on having a car wreck either. But I still put my seat belt on.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
