mikempb 0 #26 January 5, 2012 That's not exactly how it was to be interpreted. There is energy all around us. When the scientist made the device to run the test and made a vacuum there was energy in there already. We have no technology that I know of to void that out of the equation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #27 January 5, 2012 >When the scientist made the device to run the test and made a vacuum there was >energy in there already. We have no technology that I know of to void that out of the >equation. Right, and that's why it's so significant. There IS energy and matter in vacuum, and in some cases energy and matter CAN come from nothing. (Hawking radiation is an example.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikempb 0 #28 January 5, 2012 Not sure what you mean. by timeless I mean he was before time. He always was. To truly be infinite there is no beginning or end. The universe is finite it had a beginning and it will have an end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikempb 0 #29 January 5, 2012 I'm on my I phone and I'm taking short cuts. Let me put it this way. There are no perfect vacuumes in a laboratory they are defined by how close to perfect they are. But they are not perfect. I know a vacuum is a place void of matter as you know but until that test is done in a pecect vacuum and then matter created it stands in dispute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #30 January 5, 2012 QuoteThe universe is finite it had a beginning and it will have an end. What if the end leads to the beginning?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #31 January 5, 2012 QuoteI'm on my I phone and I'm taking short cuts. Do you think that's going to help take the discussion in the direction you want it to go?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikempb 0 #32 January 5, 2012 Good question but there still had to be a point it came into being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #33 January 5, 2012 >But they are not perfect. I know a vacuum is a place void of matter as you know but >until that test is done in a pecect vacuum and then matter created it stands in dispute. Not really. The Casimir Effect is real and it's exactly the OPPOSITE of what you'd expect if there were atmosphere present between the plates - the two plates in the experiment are pulled together, not pushed apart. It's not due to "extra stuff" being there that you can't pump out. It's because there is energy inherent in vacuum, and that energy is expressed by virtual particles and antiparticle creation/annihilation. Google "quantum foam" for more info. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikempb 0 #34 January 5, 2012 No that's why I explained myself rather carefully after that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #35 January 5, 2012 QuoteCosmological Unless we disagree here its probably agreed the universe had a beginning. My premise is that something can not come out of nothing. Space Time Matter according to Einstein must all be present this is Natural law. So if there is a creator and I said IF then he must be timeless. Space less and immaterial. Any objections so far?[/reply We agree that there is a nothing. A vacuum. That matter exists is a proof. Explain the existence of matter from that nothing. Unexplainable. That's about as far as anyone can go. To quantify the unquantifiable ends any further discussion. The debate then shifts to the qualities and attributes imagined that the unexplainable entity has been anointed with by the debaters. Human intellectual speculation. All that is left after that is faith, and the 7000+ years old discussion that surrounds it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,257 #36 January 5, 2012 QuoteGood question but there still had to be a point it came into being. Since your next point is going to be to argue for the existence of a being that does not have to have a point where it came into being, my question to you is why? Why does there have to be a point where it came into being?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoogeyMan 0 #37 January 5, 2012 Quote>But they are not perfect. I know a vacuum is a place void of matter as you know but >until that test is done in a pecect vacuum and then matter created it stands in dispute. Not really. The Casimir Effect is real and it's exactly the OPPOSITE of what you'd expect if there were atmosphere present between the plates - the two plates in the experiment are pulled together, not pushed apart. It's not due to "extra stuff" being there that you can't pump out. It's because there is energy inherent in vacuum, and that energy is expressed by virtual particles and antiparticle creation/annihilation. Google "quantum foam" for more info. Subatomic particles, energy, radiation and even possibly the unproven quantum foam may all exist. If it exists, where did it originate from? Unexplainable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Southern_Man 0 #38 January 5, 2012 Quote The universe is finite it had a beginning and it will have an end. Appears to be expanding according to the best cosmological understanding. No end is expected."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #39 January 5, 2012 >If it exists, where did it originate from? Unexplainable. ?? We can explain a lot of what you just listed. We know where energy comes from - how it originates, where it goes, what it does and how it changes with time. We know what subatomic particles make up what parts of matter and how they interact. We understand radiation and how _it_ works; we can even manipulate it to make X-rays of things, transmute elements for nuclear medicine, build reactors to make power for us. We can even create nuclear fusion in labs and prototype reactors. We still have things to learn (why we have CP violation for example) but history has demonstrated that physics is not unexplainable - it's just hard to explain, and it takes a long time to understand it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gher 0 #40 January 5, 2012 QuoteQuoteCosmological My niece is studying cosmology. She's really quite the artist at it. Surplus Eastern Bloc firearms are often stored covered in Cosmoline. It's a bitch to clean off without powerful solvents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoogeyMan 0 #41 January 6, 2012 Quote>If it exists, where did it originate from? Unexplainable. ?? We can explain a lot of what you just listed. We know where energy comes from - how it originates, where it goes, what it does and how it changes with time. We know what subatomic particles make up what parts of matter and how they interact. We understand radiation and how _it_ works; we can even manipulate it to make X-rays of things, transmute elements for nuclear medicine, build reactors to make power for us. We can even create nuclear fusion in labs and prototype reactors. We still have things to learn (why we have CP violation for example) but history has demonstrated that physics is not unexplainable - it's just hard to explain, and it takes a long time to understand it all. We are not discussing the why of physics. The debate is how can physics be used to discuss religion. Since matter ( sub atomic particles, radiation et al) is not creatable, yet can be changed.... so forth..... as far as we know, the question of where from the void did matter originate is unexplainable. Any further debate boils down to a discussion of what powers the debaters accede to as belonging to a deity or their version of a deity. To simply throw out that there is "nothing" is denied by the physical fact that matter does exist. EDIT.... BTW, we stand on the shoulders of Aristotle, and other great thinkers as we are echoing them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoogeyMan 0 #42 January 6, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteCosmological My niece is studying cosmology. She's really quite the artist at it. Surplus Eastern Bloc firearms are often stored covered in Cosmoline. It's a bitch to clean off without powerful solvents. High test gasoline. It works great for me. You may have to soak a bit, but all three of my SKS's and Mosin Nagants cleaned up like arsenal new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #43 January 6, 2012 QuoteNot sure what you mean. by timeless I mean he was before time. He always was. To truly be infinite there is no beginning or end. The universe is finite it had a beginning and it will have an end. There is no before time, it does not have a beginning. This premise was interesting during Lewis's day, before people like Einstein and Hawking taught us a better understanding (or, more accurately, taught those with a much better grasp of math than myself) of the nature of time. Time compresses just like space in certain energy neighbourhoods so concepts like "always was" or "the beginning of time" which depend upon a linear progression of time simply have no solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #44 January 6, 2012 QuoteYou need to look up the definition of "Christian apologist" it's not what you think. And you need to develop your ability to detect tongue-in-cheek satire. Now I'm going to get out of the way and enjoy the good conversation that is going on here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikempb 0 #45 January 6, 2012 Let's all agree to disagree. I would love to bring up the moral argument to see what crazy roller coaster ride that will be If I may, another avenue for further evidence for me is objective and relative beliefs. You may believe something is right or wrong and I may believe something completely different. That is relative beliefs. But there is a universal right and wrong out there. Where does that universal moral come from. It can't come from us because we are imperfect therfore we cannot agree to know what is perfect truth Let's start there and I'll give examples in a bit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,146 #46 January 6, 2012 Is there an absolute morality? I submit that the only thing that most people can agree on is that people are the center of their own universe, and that not damaging people in our own tribe is the biggest moral law out there. Pretty much everything else comes from that. The Bible says that you can enslave and kill enemies; some cultures have successful multiple-marriage possibilities. There are anthropofagous cultures that are also long-term successful. How do you define an absolute morality? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikempb 0 #47 January 6, 2012 Well I'd like to leave the bible out of it for now. I think absolute morality comes from an unchanging perfect entity . My reasoning is if we are all here by chance then we are just chemical reactions and nothing we do is right or wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Southern_Man 0 #48 January 6, 2012 QuoteWell I'd like to leave the bible out of it for now. I think absolute morality comes from an unchanging perfect entity . My reasoning is if we are all here by chance then we are just chemical reactions and nothing we do is right or wrong. This is just a tautology."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #49 January 6, 2012 QuoteThe Casimir Effect Hey, what do you know....look what popped up.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #50 January 6, 2012 QuoteWell I'd like to leave the bible out of it for now. Without the Bible anything goes, like all the wild eyed musings from smoking dope.... I like structure...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 13 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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jakee 1,257 #36 January 5, 2012 QuoteGood question but there still had to be a point it came into being. Since your next point is going to be to argue for the existence of a being that does not have to have a point where it came into being, my question to you is why? Why does there have to be a point where it came into being?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #37 January 5, 2012 Quote>But they are not perfect. I know a vacuum is a place void of matter as you know but >until that test is done in a pecect vacuum and then matter created it stands in dispute. Not really. The Casimir Effect is real and it's exactly the OPPOSITE of what you'd expect if there were atmosphere present between the plates - the two plates in the experiment are pulled together, not pushed apart. It's not due to "extra stuff" being there that you can't pump out. It's because there is energy inherent in vacuum, and that energy is expressed by virtual particles and antiparticle creation/annihilation. Google "quantum foam" for more info. Subatomic particles, energy, radiation and even possibly the unproven quantum foam may all exist. If it exists, where did it originate from? Unexplainable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #38 January 5, 2012 Quote The universe is finite it had a beginning and it will have an end. Appears to be expanding according to the best cosmological understanding. No end is expected."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #39 January 5, 2012 >If it exists, where did it originate from? Unexplainable. ?? We can explain a lot of what you just listed. We know where energy comes from - how it originates, where it goes, what it does and how it changes with time. We know what subatomic particles make up what parts of matter and how they interact. We understand radiation and how _it_ works; we can even manipulate it to make X-rays of things, transmute elements for nuclear medicine, build reactors to make power for us. We can even create nuclear fusion in labs and prototype reactors. We still have things to learn (why we have CP violation for example) but history has demonstrated that physics is not unexplainable - it's just hard to explain, and it takes a long time to understand it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gher 0 #40 January 5, 2012 QuoteQuoteCosmological My niece is studying cosmology. She's really quite the artist at it. Surplus Eastern Bloc firearms are often stored covered in Cosmoline. It's a bitch to clean off without powerful solvents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #41 January 6, 2012 Quote>If it exists, where did it originate from? Unexplainable. ?? We can explain a lot of what you just listed. We know where energy comes from - how it originates, where it goes, what it does and how it changes with time. We know what subatomic particles make up what parts of matter and how they interact. We understand radiation and how _it_ works; we can even manipulate it to make X-rays of things, transmute elements for nuclear medicine, build reactors to make power for us. We can even create nuclear fusion in labs and prototype reactors. We still have things to learn (why we have CP violation for example) but history has demonstrated that physics is not unexplainable - it's just hard to explain, and it takes a long time to understand it all. We are not discussing the why of physics. The debate is how can physics be used to discuss religion. Since matter ( sub atomic particles, radiation et al) is not creatable, yet can be changed.... so forth..... as far as we know, the question of where from the void did matter originate is unexplainable. Any further debate boils down to a discussion of what powers the debaters accede to as belonging to a deity or their version of a deity. To simply throw out that there is "nothing" is denied by the physical fact that matter does exist. EDIT.... BTW, we stand on the shoulders of Aristotle, and other great thinkers as we are echoing them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #42 January 6, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteCosmological My niece is studying cosmology. She's really quite the artist at it. Surplus Eastern Bloc firearms are often stored covered in Cosmoline. It's a bitch to clean off without powerful solvents. High test gasoline. It works great for me. You may have to soak a bit, but all three of my SKS's and Mosin Nagants cleaned up like arsenal new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #43 January 6, 2012 QuoteNot sure what you mean. by timeless I mean he was before time. He always was. To truly be infinite there is no beginning or end. The universe is finite it had a beginning and it will have an end. There is no before time, it does not have a beginning. This premise was interesting during Lewis's day, before people like Einstein and Hawking taught us a better understanding (or, more accurately, taught those with a much better grasp of math than myself) of the nature of time. Time compresses just like space in certain energy neighbourhoods so concepts like "always was" or "the beginning of time" which depend upon a linear progression of time simply have no solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #44 January 6, 2012 QuoteYou need to look up the definition of "Christian apologist" it's not what you think. And you need to develop your ability to detect tongue-in-cheek satire. Now I'm going to get out of the way and enjoy the good conversation that is going on here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikempb 0 #45 January 6, 2012 Let's all agree to disagree. I would love to bring up the moral argument to see what crazy roller coaster ride that will be If I may, another avenue for further evidence for me is objective and relative beliefs. You may believe something is right or wrong and I may believe something completely different. That is relative beliefs. But there is a universal right and wrong out there. Where does that universal moral come from. It can't come from us because we are imperfect therfore we cannot agree to know what is perfect truth Let's start there and I'll give examples in a bit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,146 #46 January 6, 2012 Is there an absolute morality? I submit that the only thing that most people can agree on is that people are the center of their own universe, and that not damaging people in our own tribe is the biggest moral law out there. Pretty much everything else comes from that. The Bible says that you can enslave and kill enemies; some cultures have successful multiple-marriage possibilities. There are anthropofagous cultures that are also long-term successful. How do you define an absolute morality? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikempb 0 #47 January 6, 2012 Well I'd like to leave the bible out of it for now. I think absolute morality comes from an unchanging perfect entity . My reasoning is if we are all here by chance then we are just chemical reactions and nothing we do is right or wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #48 January 6, 2012 QuoteWell I'd like to leave the bible out of it for now. I think absolute morality comes from an unchanging perfect entity . My reasoning is if we are all here by chance then we are just chemical reactions and nothing we do is right or wrong. This is just a tautology."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #49 January 6, 2012 QuoteThe Casimir Effect Hey, what do you know....look what popped up.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #50 January 6, 2012 QuoteWell I'd like to leave the bible out of it for now. Without the Bible anything goes, like all the wild eyed musings from smoking dope.... I like structure...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
