emmiwy 0 #1 Posted November 22, 2011 Perhaps this article could be considered pertinent to the women's forum, in re: the chance of two people meeting. As much as I am a romantic, I have to defer to the math and probability as presented in this article. Of course the author is not making a completely unerring argument; some of the statistics are not necessarily verified (e.g., chance of two people's relationship turning into a long-term relationship, chance of that long-term relationship resulting in offspring) to support the probability that is finally calculated. Still, the argument is convincing enough to me that I am curious to know--to all you fatalists out there--how one can support the contrary idea of two people meeting is inevitable and based purely on fate? http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/abinazir/2011/06/15/what-are-chances-you-would-be-born/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elite_Marksman 0 #2 November 22, 2011 And that number only takes into account everything that had to happen before we existed. Not only did Earth have to form, it had to form the right distance from the right star. It had to be massive enough to have a molten metallic core (otherwise no magnetic field), and large enough to cool slowly (Mars used to have a magnetic field, but the core has since solidified and the magnetic field is gone. Humans could not survive on Mars without EM shielding even if it had an Earth-like atmosphere.) The right combination of chemicals had to be present in right environments to form a self-replicating organism. That first organism had to have the right mutation to create the next link in the ancestry of mankind, as did every subsequent generation. Each of those organisms with the right mutations had to survive long enough to reproduce. The various major events in Earth's history (Ice Ages, meteor strikes, etc) had to happen at the right time and in the right place, lest the chain of the correct mutations be broken... And that's probably not even close to complicated enough. Basically statistics say there is absolutely no rational reason why we should exist and not some other organism, and even less reason why an individual person, with their unique physical and psychological traits should exist, and yet we do. Both viewpoints - probability of you existing and certainty of you existing - share a common trait with religion. Neither opinion is objectively correct nor objectively incorrect, they are simply different belief systems used by people to explain what is probably the two questions we will never answer. Why do we exist, and what is the purpose, if any, of our existence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #3 November 22, 2011 You're missing the forest for the trees. If you take for granted that Humans were supposed to turn out in our current state and then try to go back and calculate the probability of everything happening to allow for that you're going to come up with some pretty thin odds. But if you set aside that assumption and realize that we would simply be something else (but perhaps still able to ask these same kinds of philosophical questions) for many of the links in the chain you laid out, you'll realize that we are quite remarkable, but not so mind-blowingly and religion-creatingly infeasible as you might first think. A similar critique applies to the article in the OP. When it comes to perspective, conditional probabilities are your friend. (Also, who you are is more than your DNA) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elite_Marksman 0 #4 November 22, 2011 I realize that the chances of sentient life in general existing are much larger, but my point is that the chances of us existing in exactly the way we do today with all of our unique (as a species and as individuals) characteristics is unimaginably small. Off topic, but for things of similar unimaginability... The value of pi was recently calculated to 10 trillion digits. If you wanted to store a 10 trillion digit number on your computer it would take just shy of 4 TERAbytes of storage... At DVD quality, 4TB is 2127 hours of video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #5 November 22, 2011 The purpose of our existence is to feed our cats. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #6 November 22, 2011 QuoteWhy do we exist, and what is the purpose, if any, of our existence? I'm almost completely sure that there is no purpose, but that doesn't mean you can't make up your own purpose if you want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 150 #7 November 22, 2011 Quote Quote Why do we exist, and what is the purpose, if any, of our existence? I'm almost completely sure that there is no purpose, but that doesn't mean you can't make up your own purpose if you want. Well I like the old T-shirt "eat, fuck, skydive" It seems applicable here.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #8 November 22, 2011 QuoteI'm almost completely sure that there is no purpose What's holding you back, that still small voice in the back of your head that you just can't shake?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #9 November 22, 2011 QuoteWhat's holding you back, that still small voice in the back of your head that you just can't shake? The fact that I can't proof there is no purpose. I'm just being agnostic about it, but I'm 99,99999999% sure that life is void of purpose and meaning. We're just smart bald apes leading small insignificant lives on a run of the mill rock that orbits a run of the mill star in a run of the mill galaxy. I don't really understand why people are so scared of the obvious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #10 November 22, 2011 QuoteI don't really understand why people are so scared of the obvious. That wouldn't be scarry...but I can understand why you'd be scared of being held accountable for not fulfilling your purpose...So it makes sense why you would deny that purpose exists. Just something to think about: "If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." -C.S LewisYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emmiwy 0 #11 November 22, 2011 Quote Basically statistics say there is absolutely no rational reason why we should exist and not some other organism, and even less reason why an individual person, with their unique physical and psychological traits should exist, and yet we do. Maybe no rationale, but I can appreciate the logic of what led to our existence. And this returns to what I think is the author's main argument, that we're all very lucky to be alive, or living miracles if you prefer. Quote Why do we exist, and what is the purpose, if any, of our existence? If you think about it, life really has no purpose but to pass the time. It moves on regardless of everything that we may think constrain our capacity for living. So we may as well the best of time and do everything we can to be fulfilled for ourselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #12 November 22, 2011 QuoteSo we may as well the best of time and do everything we can to be fulfilled for ourselves. I believe it is because of this type of selfishness that our world has constantly been in a state of turmoil since the beginning.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #13 November 22, 2011 QuoteJust something to think about: "If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." -C.S Lewis I thought about it. It's a non-sequitur.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #14 November 22, 2011 QuoteI realize that the chances of sentient life in general existing are much larger, but my point is that the chances of us existing in exactly the way we do today with all of our unique (as a species and as individuals) characteristics is unimaginably small. So? If it wasn't us, it'd be something else, and the chances of exactly that thing would be unimaginably small. But if it wasn't that thing, it'd be something alse again, and the chances of that other thing would be equally unimaginably small. But it wasn't those other things, it was us. So when we sit here all fait accompli and ask 'what are the chances' - the chances are 1.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #15 November 22, 2011 Quote Still, the argument is convincing enough to me that I am curious to know--to all you fatalists out there--how one can support the contrary idea of two people meeting is inevitable and based purely on fate? http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/abinazir/2011/06/15/what-are-chances-you-would-be-born/ This blog misstates the question. His answer is not what are the chances of you coming into being. It's the number of different ways you could have turned out. The chances of you coming into being is in fact 100%. The ID folks try to answer the first question and come up with an impressively improbable number. Then again, the odds of winning the mega millions lottery is pretty steep and someone wins that every few weeks. It only has to happen once for you to become a millionaire, or for the universe to come into being. And if it didn't, we wouldn't be here to debate the odds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emmiwy 0 #16 November 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo we may as well the best of time and do everything we can to be fulfilled for ourselves. I believe it is because of this type of selfishness that our world has constantly been in a state of turmoil since the beginning. I generally agree with this. But you can also see this perceived selfishness in the way of nurturing your own individuality to serve a greater purpose. Without paying attention to our own needs and aspirations, we wouldn't have the focus, energy, creativity and positive affect in realizing what we are capable of and carrying this out for others/the world/life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #17 November 22, 2011 Quote those benighted souls who still cling to user-hostile British measures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #18 November 22, 2011 Quote But you can also see this perceived selfishness in the way of nurturing your own individuality *in a polite and playful tone...no offense* I'm not quite sure if that is a euphamism or just good ol' fashioned weasel wording. Quote to serve a greater purpose. I don't perceive it to be selfish to serve a purpose greater than ourselves that is beyond just "passing time." Quote Without paying attention to our own needs and aspirations, we wouldn't have the focus, energy, creativity and positive affect in realizing what we are capable of and carrying this out for others/the world/life. Not so sure about that...the focus, energy, and creativity would be driven by the true desire for the betterment of others/life/world (society) itself, thus creating a pleasant equilibrium with our enviornment in which to fullfill our reasonably hedonistic desires...however, the problem as usual is that this of course would have to be a concerted effort among people with self control.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emmiwy 0 #19 November 22, 2011 Quote *in a polite and playful tone...no offense* I'm not quite sure if that is a euphamism or just good ol' fashioned weasel wording. No worries, could be easily seen as euphemism. I tend to carry a positive and alternative way of seeing things which can be equated to psychobabble :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #20 November 22, 2011 Quote I tend to carry a positive and alternative way of seeing things which can be equated to psychobabble :) That's nothing, I have a way of seeing things that people here equate to being psycho... Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #21 November 23, 2011 C.S. Lewis would have been my bitch if he were still alive. The man just wasn't very bright, or he wasn't a good liar. He was full of shit, that much is clear. As for not fulfilling my purpose. try my best to be a decent human being. I won't suck up to a Jew that was crucified 1978 years ago because I don't think that adds to the world Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #22 November 23, 2011 QuoteC.S. Lewis would have been my bitch if he were still alive. The man just wasn't very bright, or he wasn't a good liar. He was full of shit, that much is clear. Only to expected from an Oxford man.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #23 November 23, 2011 QuoteI believe it is because of this type of selfishness that our world has constantly been in a state of turmoil since the beginning. No, it's the religious people that are so egocentric they actually believe they deserve to live forever. Because beneath all the quasi humble BS that's what you think you deserve: eternal fucking life. And if history taught us anything it's the fact your kind is prepared to kill for that imaginary eternal existence. There's no length people like you won't go to prevent dying. Religious people, especially Abrahamic ones are just too pathetic to see that they're the ego trippers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #24 November 23, 2011 QuoteOnly to expected from an Oxford man. Well, Oxford sounds good, but come on: Lunatic, Liar or Lord? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #25 November 23, 2011 QuoteQuoteOnly to expected from an Oxford man. Well, Oxford sounds good, but come on: Lunatic, Liar or Lord? www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world Everyone knows that Cambridge is far superior to Oxford.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
