Christians - how do you rationalise your belief?

[lurch 0]

"Oh, I see...you have created yourself this scarecrow god made of straw simply to despise it.

...typical. "


Not at all. And, might I add, what a vicious imagination you have. My attitude is far more benign. Its simple.

It doesn't even matter whether you think I'm picking on some vicious caricature idea of god, or the one that fits the definition that -you- believe in, or any other.

Prayer: The act of holding an inner monologue, often spoken aloud, with the earnest intention of communicating with and typically asking favors of, intervention from, or supervision by, one's top rank deity of choice, typically referred to as "god", defined as the creative force of the universe with certain supposed characteristics they are certain of, including the certainty that they know what said deity wants, and will reward evidenceless faith by direct intervention, if asked a certain way.

This is called magical thinking. Its no different when you do it than it was when the Romans did.

I don't even...(I'll invent a new word: Devangelize!) devangelize about it, I do not directly object to prayer, I politely respect it and leave it alone when I see it. I just interpret it as another flavor of meditation behavior.

Whatever helps you calm your mind. Its the insistence that yours defines reality that bothers people. I knew a tai-chi guy once who was just as bad with it, endlessly bringing everything back to all about how if you'd just learn to move your chi like this you could fix bla bla bla.

When he can light up a light bulb with it, I'll be impressed. Until then its just another mind game franchise.

However literal-minded expectation of divine intervention upon request is both irrational and incredibly hazardous thinking. And it is a massive waste of time especially in a crisis.

Intense Belief with a capital B is a very powerful and useful tool if used rationally, actually. I just choose to use it conciously. In your case, when you hit rock bottom and converted wholeheatedly to hardcore christianity, you chose a certain specific insane program to believe in, and used the strength of that belief to get control of yourself and get your life together. Congratulations. With no sarcasm whatsoever. I may think the cultural I.D. of the technique you used to be a bit silly but that doesn't take away from the nature of the achievement itself. I just think its a shame you'll never let yourself take credit for your own salvation because you're stuck with the aftereffects of rational judgement lockout you had to accept to run the program and achieve the goal in the first place.

The program you are running will not allow you to comprehend the previous paragraph. But I can give you a thumbnail gist your religion may at least allow you to consider:

God didn't do it. You did by creating self discipline off that belief.

I prefer deliberate use of belief. I think it should be rational. Tied to reality, it actually WORKS. I believe "I can fix a..." whatever. I start with that belief even though at first I usually do not fully understand the problem. I am starting from a slightly irrational position of faith.

But it is faith based on rationality. Previous experience solving problems, plus previous experience solving them even when I did not at first think they were soluble. Persistent effort has succeeded in initially impossible-looking circumstances. If I learn enough it will again. One way or another, it always has. Surprise: Us atheists can make leaps of faith, too, you know.

My objection is to the idea of surrendering your will to your imaginary X and letting IT solve the problem. It won't. Reality does not work that way.

We had a lady at my factory for awhile. Cute, nice little old lady, always struck me as ever so faintly dotty, though, like everything she said was in reply to a slightly different conversation than everyone else was having.

I overheard a conversation in the cafeteria once about driving in snow and ice.

Now, my take: I deal with it by buying a jeep, investing in serious tires, using the 4wd and driving to the conditions. I read the road and expect hidden ice when hidden ice is possible. I know how to threshold brake, steer through a slide, deliberately powerslide, and use grazing/half-plowing contact with snowbanks as last ditch emergency braking. I drive planning for unexpected slides, and increase my following distance by as much as 10x normal to make DAMN sure I don't slide into anybody. This is responsible and rational. I haven't hit shit since I was 19 years old. Driving in winter is fun and challenging and its no problem if I'm not stupid.

I don't pray about the storm or ask my favorite god to deliver it from us or protect me from it, I just handle it and its no big deal.

Everyone else is going off about how they're afraid of the next storm and how bad its going to be. (I say nothing: Jeep can handle 30 inches easily. I'm looking forward to it because driving it in storms is fun, done slowly.)

And this lady says "But sometimes if it spins all the way, you just have to let go of the wheel and leave it in Jesus' hands." With total sincerity.

Then I understood. The lady is just plain nuts. And sooner or later, she's going to do that in traffic and kill somebody.

Yay, belief.
(Facepalm)
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Skyrad 0]

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Irony: I put a lot more "faith" in the atheists I know because they're MUCH better in a crisis. They have no impulse to throw up their hands, go helpless and start begging for help. They know there is no help but what we make, and so, like me, when the shit hits the fan they just start handling it. "Beg for help from unicorns" is simply not in their option list. Nor mine.
-B

Yea because people who believe in God are crap in a crisis

Like these guys?

http://veteransprayers.tripod.com/id30.html

I'd rather have them next to me in a crisis than you.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Doyle 0]

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Irony: I put a lot more "faith" in the atheists I know because they're MUCH better in a crisis. They have no impulse to throw up their hands, go helpless and start begging for help. They know there is no help but what we make, and so, like me, when the shit hits the fan they just start handling it. "Beg for help from unicorns" is simply not in their option list. Nor mine.
-B

Yea because people who believe in God are crap in a crisis

Like these guys?

http://veteransprayers.tripod.com/id30.html

I'd rather have them next to me in a crisis than you.

And those people, regardless of their beliefs are trained to combat the problem at hand fast and according to the skills and procedures they have been taught. I can assure you that nowhere in their training would they be told to take no action and let god sort it out. They are taught the exact opposite, I would be worried if this was not the case and I hope you would be too.

[Coreece 190]

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And this lady says "But sometimes if it spins all the way, you just have to let go of the wheel and leave it in Jesus' hands." With total sincerity.

Then I understood. The lady is just plain nuts. And sooner or later, she's going to do that in traffic and kill somebody.

You don't know that...Maybe this nice little old lady is able to recognize her limitations when the time comes. Perhaps if she were in a full spin out and tried to "handle the situation" beyound her ability to control it in the proper manner, she'd jump the curb and kill you...

All I can really do is pray that you recognize your limitations and come to the realization that you're not invincible and taste the sweet nectar of humility and the grace of God that abounds once cultivated...until then, your vain attempts to understand spirituality by reckoning your misconceptions with other's misconceptions will only continue to backwash an innacurate appraisal of Christianity.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Doyle 0]

csb

[normiss 622]

Thanks for clarifying organized religion.

[beowulf 1]

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And this lady says "But sometimes if it spins all the way, you just have to let go of the wheel and leave it in Jesus' hands." With total sincerity.

Then I understood. The lady is just plain nuts. And sooner or later, she's going to do that in traffic and kill somebody.

You don't know that...Maybe this nice little old lady is able to recognize her limitations when the time comes. Perhaps if she were in a full spin out and tried to "handle the situation" beyound her ability to control it in the proper manner, she'd jump the curb and kill you...

All I can really do is pray that you recognize your limitations and come to the realization that you're not invincible and taste the sweet nectar of humility and the grace of God that abounds once cultivated...until then, your vain attempts to understand spirituality by reckoning your misconceptions with other's misconceptions will only continue to backwash an innacurate appraisal of Christianity.

A fine example of religous "logic".

[Coreece 190]

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And this lady says "But sometimes if it spins all the way, you just have to let go of the wheel and leave it in Jesus' hands." With total sincerity.

Then I understood. The lady is just plain nuts. And sooner or later, she's going to do that in traffic and kill somebody.

You don't know that...Maybe this nice little old lady is able to recognize her limitations when the time comes. Perhaps if she were in a full spin out and tried to "handle the situation" beyound her ability to control it in the proper manner, she'd jump the curb and kill you...

All I can really do is pray that you recognize your limitations and come to the realization that you're not invincible and taste the sweet nectar of humility and the grace of God that abounds once cultivated...until then, your vain attempts to understand spirituality by reckoning your misconceptions with other's misconceptions will only continue to backwash an innacurate appraisal of Christianity.

A fine example of religous "logic".

I'm not saying that I agree with the little old lady, I was just providing an example to illustrate that he cannot predict the outcome of such an abrupt situation where people instictively react on impulse anyway. And who knows, maybe the little old lady could've been talking about an uncontrollable situation where it wouldn't have mattered what you did if there was even anything that could be done in the first place.

Besides this idea of letting go and letting God in this context is not even biblical nor taught anywhere in scripture. There is no reference to Jesus being your own personal utilitarian jeanie and certainly no reference to him ever being your chauffeur. Lurch basically took this misconception, mixed it with his own and added to the list of christian scarecrows...that was my point, not to advocate a new wave of ghost riding.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[winsor 187]

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I'm not saying that I agree with the little old lady, I was just providing an example to illustrate that he cannot predict the outcome of such an abrupt situation where people instictively react on impulse anyway. And who knows, maybe the little old lady could've been talking about an uncontrollable situation where it wouldn't have mattered what you did if there was even anything that could be done in the first place.

...

"If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible." Bob Hoover

[lurch 0]

Exactly. You keep flying the (car, canopy, aircraft, whatever) until it disintegrates around you. If Captain Sully had been the type to leave it to god, 168 people wouldn't have walked away from the only successful airliner water landing in history. You do not give up and you do not let go of the controls until everything stops.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[wmw999 2,147]

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If Captain Sully had been the type to leave it to god

According to Wikipedia, at least, Capt. Sullenberger is a Methodist.

I don't qualify as a Christian to Ron and those folks, but to characterize all Christians as alike in their sheeplike inaction is just as inaccurate as it is to say that all atheists are as well-spoken as Christopher Hitchens

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bertt 0]

"For God so loved the world that he gave us Pi." John 3.14159....

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[The111 1]

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Prayer: The act of holding an inner monologue, often spoken aloud, with the earnest intention of communicating with and typically asking favors of, intervention from, or supervision by, one's top rank deity of choice, typically referred to as "god", defined as the creative force of the universe with certain supposed characteristics they are certain of, including the certainty that they know what said deity wants, and will reward evidenceless faith by direct intervention, if asked a certain way.

Lurch, my favorite memory from being brought up in the church was the concept of a "prayer chain." If you're not familiar with it, people with urgent needs present those needs to the entire congregation, and the congregation agrees to "team up," each praying for the needs of many in their own time. I think in some cases they literally pass those needs along person to person over the phone, hence the "chain" terminology. You sign up to be a member of the prayer chain and get to present your own needs to the group, but also agree to pray for all the other needs brought by other members.

To me, this implies that you can extort your god. Power in numbers or something. I really get a kick out of the idea of a benevolent, omniscient deity who is more likely to respond to a request if it is brought to him in by a large mob. Maybe he has a busy schedule and this is the best way to get his attention? Then again, this is the same god who knows how many hairs I have on my head, I've heard.

Yes I'm sure to those who believe in it, it's much more than extortion. Sharing, community, etc... which is probably the tangible benefit that it actually offers.

While I do agree overall with Billvon that if your beliefs harm nobody else you are free to have them... I still do get a kick out of the above ideas.

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