billvon 2,433 #151 October 7, 2011 >Yeah, like I said before, it's still all speculation. Nope. The actual, observable evidence (like the microwave background radiation) is certainly not speculation, nor is Hubble's Constant, galactic distribution, or elemental distribution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #152 October 7, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe only way God is truly knocked out of the picture is to show the entire Universe coming from nothing, which we haven't done . . . Actually, we have. Further, it's not all that hard to understand the basics of it. Just because you seem to have not made the effort to do so doesn't mean its not out there. Here are some of the basics to get you started; http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/space-exploration/did-god-create-universe-episode.htm Yeah, like I said before, it's still all speculation. "What ifs, Maybes, Might, Couldas" What we have in essence, even if we allow the "it might be possible for the universe to spring into existence" is not from nothing, but from the very laws of the Universe. That's hardly coming from nothing at all. Why should those laws even exist outside where we are at? We could run that train of thought all over the place, and even the vids you linked to state we haven't the slightest clue on explaining said laws or their existence. If everything you believe is bullshit layered upon bullshit, I can see how you might assume that everyone else is subject to similar limitations. That is, however, not the case. The argument that an in invisible friend MUST exist to account for the existence of everything, since it is impossible for anything to exist without explanation - except for an invisible friend - is not just invalid, it is insane. BSBD, WinsorWhen you're argument is reduced to "everything you believe is bullshit layered upon bullshit" it speaks more to the strength of your beliefs than mine.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #153 October 7, 2011 Quote Actually it is. It all comes from nothing. Furthermore, it's not all that abstract and follows a very logical progression from Big Bang, to the creation of the solar system, to life, to us chatting about it on the internet.Not according to previous posts and the links provided. The universe came forth because certain laws demanded it, more or less. That is something coming from something (the universe coming from laws). Quote There aren't really any missing links. There isn't really anything requires any intelligent design or gods. No "What ifs, Maybes, Might, Couldas" -- it's all an inevitable consequence of physics and chemistry. All 13,750,000,000 years of it leading up to this point we're living in right now. All of it, what our great grandparents might have called the "mysteries of the universe," available for anyone to understand if they choose to. Look what you just wrote. "it's all an inevitable consequence of physics and chemistry" THAT is something. I'm not even arguing anything supernatural in those 13,750,000,000 years from the BB to present. I'm saying that science, "In the beginning" has never once been able to show that all of this, from the very moment the Universe came to be, came from literally nothing. No other universes. No outside energy fields. No pre-existing laws. Nothing, nothing. The moment you start invoking physics (or anything else) you've got "something". For a group of people that seem to like to ask questions and find origins of things, it's strange that the most obvious questions, "Where did these laws come from?" and "Why are they even in existence?" are so shunned.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #154 October 7, 2011 Quote>Yeah, like I said before, it's still all speculation. Nope. The actual, observable evidence (like the microwave background radiation) is certainly not speculation, nor is Hubble's Constant, galactic distribution, or elemental distribution.None of that points to the Universe springing from absolutely nothing. That's all internal. You're confusing what point I'm making.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #155 October 7, 2011 QuoteI'm saying that science, "In the beginning" has never once been able to show that all of this, from the very moment the Universe came to be, came from literally nothing. I think I see your problem. You think that for the Big Bang to be true that "everything came from nothing". That's not what the Big Bang theory says. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #156 October 7, 2011 Quote I never said your joke wasn't funny. Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #157 October 7, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe only way God is truly knocked out of the picture is to show the entire Universe coming from nothing, which we haven't done . . . Actually, we have. Further, it's not all that hard to understand the basics of it. Just because you seem to have not made the effort to do so doesn't mean its not out there. Here are some of the basics to get you started; http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/space-exploration/did-god-create-universe-episode.htm Where in your link does it state that the universe (everything) came from nothing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #158 October 7, 2011 Quote Look what you just wrote. "it's all an inevitable consequence of physics and chemistry" THAT is something. I'm not even arguing anything supernatural in those 13,750,000,000 years from the BB to present. I'm saying that science, "In the beginning" has never once been able to show that all of this, from the very moment the Universe came to be, came from literally nothing. No other universes. No outside energy fields. No pre-existing laws. Nothing, nothing. The moment you start invoking physics (or anything else) you've got "something". For a group of people that seem to like to ask questions and find origins of things, it's strange that the most obvious questions, "Where did these laws come from?" and "Why are they even in existence?" are so shunned. No, they aren't shunned. There are numerous hypothesis on how the Big Bang came to be and what was before it. Many (perhaps most, maybe even all) of them are wrong. It's possible that man may never find the answer to the question of what came before, how it came about and why. But there's a big difference between not knowing and assuming that because we don't know, then "God must have done it." I'm not conversant with that branch of physics so I'm not familar with the thoughts and ideas of Pre-BB conditions. But I'd bet heavily that there isn't one that assumes a giant intergalactic, hyperdimensional bunny pooping out the singularity as a rabbit turd. I kinda doubt that one assuming a transfinite cat puked up the singularity as a hyperspatial hairball is there either. And I'd put an old guy clapping his hands and saying "Let there be light" in the same category. Note: I've heard an anecdote about Newton. He observed over time that the planets didn't quite follow his predictions. Finding no perceptible flaws in his calculations, he assumed that God would just reach down and fix any irregularites. He never thought that there was more to the situation than he was aware. Like the fact that his own motion within the system would alter his perceptions. Relativistically. This is a really good example of what I mean when I state "Not knowing doesn't mean we should assume that God does it." I searched around a bit but couldn't find the story anywhere. If someone could confirm or deny the truth of that I'd appreciate it."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #159 October 7, 2011 Quote>Now can you apply that certainty to the discussion at hand - existence of God? QuoteNo, for several reasons, the primary one (for me) being the ambiguous nature of the question. It's easy to say that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is X - it's a lot harder to even define terms for the God question. Hence the absurdity of arguing the point at all. Quote"OK, OK, let's assume....... OK, OK, let's assume....... .....If you go far enough down that path the answer becomes "maybe." (Needless to say so does the possibility of a lot of gods.) Certainly! ....if you are depending on the Bible to provide physical proof. Otherwise, that path is little more than a tangent and a misdirection. Bottom line: For some, God exists in whatever shape, fashion or form they choose to believe. For some, God does not exist in any shape, fashion or form. It's absurd to argue one way or the other. Time would be better spent on dealing with things having a real potential for solution.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #160 October 7, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe only way God is truly knocked out of the picture is to show the entire Universe coming from nothing, which we haven't done . . . Actually, we have. Further, it's not all that hard to understand the basics of it. Just because you seem to have not made the effort to do so doesn't mean its not out there. Here are some of the basics to get you started; http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/space-exploration/did-god-create-universe-episode.htm Where in your link does it state that the universe (everything) came from nothing? The page links to a number of concepts. If you understand one, it leads you to another. A bit like how understanding the rising and falling of a train whistle (the Doppler Effect) leads you to being able to measure the speed and direction of movement of stars hundreds of light years away. Simple concepts once understood have profound meanings. But to answer your specific question: On that page, right column, click the link that says, "Did God Create the Universe?" Click the video that says, "Something of Nothing." It will give you a brief explanation of how quantum mechanics explains how the universe could simply pop into existence without any outside intervention required by gods. http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/did-god-create-the-universe-videos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics Further, this is a 100% provable phenomenon. Quantum particles pop in and out of existence every day. The effects of that can be measured. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect Knowing that single fact explains something out of nothing.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #161 October 7, 2011 Quote. But there's a big difference between not knowing and assuming that because we don't know, then "God must have done it." . Even if a god did it, which god would that be? There are thousands to choose from that have already been invented, and an almost infinite number more that haven't been invented yet. There is no evidence whatever to select one god over any other. In an infinite universe anything that is possible will happen an infinite number of times. So if "god did it" is a possible answer, then there will be an infinite number of gods.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #162 October 7, 2011 QuoteIn an infinite universe anything that is possible will happen an infinite number of times. So if "god did it" is a possible answer, then there will be an infinite number of gods. Or, far more likely, an infinitesimally small number; zero.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #163 October 7, 2011 QuoteQuoteIn an infinite universe anything that is possible will happen an infinite number of times. So if "god did it" is a possible answer, then there will be an infinite number of gods. Or, far more likely, an infinitesimally small number; zero. "When everyone is somebody, then no-one's anybody", Glibert & Sullivan, The Gondoliers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #164 October 7, 2011 QuoteKnowing that single fact explains something out of nothing. Maybe you and I have different ideas of what "nothing" means, but I don't think any of this even comes close to showing that there was a time when "nothing" existed. But, back to the original statement about getting God out of the picture, none of this really has anything to do with whether "God" exists, since "God" is typically (conveniently) defined as being beyond what is physically knowable. So even if we could show that everything came from "nothing," people could still say that God created it from nothing (since God doesn't fall within the limitations of being defined as "something"). Sheesh, this God stuff really is silly. I think I'll switch to being a . . . what was it? An apatheist? The history and cultural phenomenon of religion is interesting, but the God argument has grown old. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #165 October 8, 2011 Quote Quote The argument that an in invisible friend MUST exist to account for the existence of everything, since it is impossible for anything to exist without explanation - except for an invisible friend - is not just invalid, it is insane. BSBD, Winsor Here is your explanation. I just found it the other day. It gave me a chuckle. I found a counter argument.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #166 October 8, 2011 Hey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #167 October 8, 2011 QuoteHey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? So let me get this straight . . . "Our" descendants travel back in time 13.75 billion years and do what?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #168 October 8, 2011 QuoteHey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? So does that make our descendents our own God? I've often wondered if the "aliens" that are described are actually what humans turn out to be in the far distant future. Given the difficulties in space travel due to interstellar distances, it's almost easier to imagine that the UFOs are really time travellers. And no, I don't really believe in UFOs, but it's something to contemplate."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #169 October 8, 2011 QuoteQuoteHey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? So let me get this straight . . . "Our" descendants travel back in time 13.75 billion years and do what?No, they wouldn't need to travel back in time first. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #170 October 8, 2011 QuoteQuoteHey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? So does that make our descendents our own God? I've often wondered if the "aliens" that are described are actually what humans turn out to be in the far distant future. Given the difficulties in space travel due to interstellar distances, it's almost easier to imagine that the UFOs are really time travellers. And no, I don't really believe in UFOs, but it's something to contemplate. This was all revealed in Repo Man. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76RWWl01JMc&feature=youtube_gdata_player Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #171 October 8, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Hey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? So let me get this straight . . . "Our" descendants travel back in time 13.75 billion years and do what? No, they wouldn't need to travel back in time first. Then I don't think you understand the concept of time! If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that "our" descendants will cause the NEXT Big Bang . . . I doubt it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #172 October 8, 2011 [email] Quote Quote Quote Quote Hey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? So let me get this straight . . . "Our" descendants travel back in time 13.75 billion years and do what? No, they wouldn't need to travel back in time first. Then I don't think you understand the concept of time! . I'm not sure you understand the concept of the Big Bang. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #173 October 8, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Hey, has anyone considered this possibility: That the Big Bang that started this Universe was caused (or will be caused) by our descendants? So let me get this straight . . . "Our" descendants travel back in time 13.75 billion years and do what? No, they wouldn't need to travel back in time first. Then I don't think you understand the concept of time! . I'm not sure you understand the concept of the Big Bang. O'Rly? How about mark-up? quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #174 October 8, 2011 I don't know how the reply tags got all fucked up. But the point is, when you initiate a Big Bang, you initiate Time itself. There is no "before" the Big Bang. So if our descendants could figure out how to make the Big Bang happen, then they wouldn't have to go back in time first. They would simply start the Universe. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #175 October 8, 2011 QuoteI don't know how the reply tags got all fucked up. But the point is, when you initiate a Big Bang, you initiate Time itself. There is no "before" the Big Bang. So if our descendants could figure out how to make the Big Bang happen, then they wouldn't have to go back in time first. They would simply start the Universe. No. They would conceivably start "A" universe, but not "THIS" one.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
