Torture did NOT lead to finding Osama bin Laden

[Amazon 7]

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SEALs and others who go through SERE training are not interrogators. That's not their job. Interrogators may go through SERE as well, I don't know, but the majority of people who go through it are certainly not being trained on how to do it.

SERE stands for Survive Evade Resist Escape. There are different levels of training, with the real stuff being reserved for operators and pilots who are likely to find themselves behind enemy lines. It is not a how-to course on torture.

What I found appalling by the Bush Administration is they took all that we had learned over a period of wars from pre-WWII up to and including the experiences of those who had been captured by the NVA, and that we used to train our own people in how to resist those techniques by exposeing them to it so when or if it happened for real it would not have the same impact on our people and turned it around and used it as a how to for our country to climb down into that gutter to use and be classified as being just as heinous in our circumvention of the Geneva Conventions.. just as the Japanese, North Koreans, Chinese, and North Vietnamese had done to our pilots and soldiers.

[popsjumper 2]

AMEN!
Feels pretty shitty down here in the gutter to me.

People here wonder why Americans are so [sarcasm} well-loved[/sarcasm] around the world.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[freethefly 6]

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. How very Christian of you.

You know, I am really sick of your, and others, propensity to use that immature remark.

Read my other posts, different situations require different responses. Get real, we are talking about war.

You are the pinnacle of hypocrisy!

From the book that you confess to follow:

In the New Testament, war is universally seen as evil and Jesus emphasized peace instead. He advised us to avoid retaliation and revenge and to extend our love even to our enemies.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. (NIV, Matthew 5:38-45)

The apostle Paul and other New testament writers echoed Jesus' sentiment and expanded on it.

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (NAS, Romans 12:17-21)

It is so amazing that you know absolutely nothing about the religion you say you follow.

Your own God tells you to offer your enemy food and water (of course the water you would offer would be in the form of water boarding.)

Your very own Jesus told those who wished to defend him:
"Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." (NAS, Matthew 26:52-53)

I guess this does not apply to you.

Hell, let's keep going. You may even learn something!

Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." Jesus said that.

Romans 12:18-19 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

Peter 2:21-23 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When he was abused, he did not return abuse; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly.

Peter 3:8-11 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love for one another, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or abuse for abuse; but, on the contrary, repay with a blessing. It is for this that you were called--that you might inherit a blessing. For "Those who desire life and desire to see good days, let them keep their tongues from evil and their lips from speaking deceit; let them turn away from evil and do good; let them seek peace and pursue it.

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. Jesus said that. I guess, that pesky little commandment about not killing does not apply to you.

John 15:10 "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love." Jesus supposedly said that, also.

I could go on and on.
I feel that you will counter with the Just War Theory formulated by man (Augustine and Aquinas.)
I'll save you the trouble:

There must be a just cause for the war.
War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.
The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.
The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.
Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.
Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

Even though I am not a Christian and do not believe in a God, I believe these are all good words to live by. Hell, I follow the teachings of Christ more than you do, Ron! You should try practicing what you preach.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

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Do you think those men going through SEAR want to be water boarded?

Why would someone want to be tortured for going to Sears (you forgot the "s".)?
I could, maybe, understand torture for going to Walmart, but Sears?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[masterblaster72 0]

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Of course
That is because no one has been tortured

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/03/bushs-glib-waterboarding_n_599893.html

Can we assume you're taking the "Waterboarding is not torture" stance ?

You dont have to assume, I will verify that

Unless you think we torture all of our SEALS I find it kind of hard to argue about

That is illogical.

I'll have you know that logic is every bit as important to rushmc as are spelling and grammar.

LOL

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[rushmc 18]

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We do not agree but you stayed respectful

more than kallend and dreamy boy can say

i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered...

Another false premise you learned from where?

you're saying that it is ok for the state to torture its citizens - ie me. you can shove that opinion where the sun don't shine...

No, I am not
but I do not know where you think the sun does not shine for you

what does alternet say?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 58]

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You should try practicing what you preach.

You speak from behind the bars of your cage. I have done nothing but post on the internet.

Read what I posted above. You do not know my actions and therefore you cannot judge my behavior. I can say anything to get a reaction.

Encounter Group Therapy. Do you know the rules? It is a Gestalt, if you will.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[freethefly 6]

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Most of us on dz.com have no direct experience with torture

During NBC warfare school at Treasure Island, we had to sit for about 10-15 minutes in a room full of tear gas. May not have been torture, but it sure in the hell felt like it. Gagging, puking, retching any phlegm from your lungs. Burning eyes, nose, lungs, and skin. CS is some nasty shit.
Opting out of going into the room would had been a fail for the training. All Hull Techs had to do it as we were the NBC guys on the ship.
Some of the other training was being trapped below several decks while the compartments filled with seawater above your head in total darkness for egress training. Other training included finding your way through a smoke filled ship on fire. All of this happened while explosion went off and the vessel shook and rolled. This was done on the USS Buttercup, a land based training vessel, in San Diego. It was some scary shit.
All of that training did come into play later on my ship. Several major floods and a number of fires. Several at sea and one major pier side fire that made national news.
You didn't have to do the training. Opting out meant you lose your rating.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kallend 1,647]

Some people voluntarily choose to have their genitalia pierced.

Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the genitals of POWs is not torture.

Some people voluntarily choose to have their noses, navels and cheeks pierced.

Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the bodies of POWs is not torture.

Some people, those into S&M, voluntarily choose to be whipped.

Using rushmc "logic" that means whipping and beating POWs is acceptable.

Some people choose to have anal sex.

Using rushmc "logic" that means sodomizing POWs is acceptable and is not torture.

There's something seriously wrong with rushmc "logic".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Krip 2]

Hi DG

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SERE stands for Survive Evade Resist Escape. There are different levels of training, with the real stuff being reserved for operators and pilots who are likely to find themselves behind enemy lines.

Close but no cigar, have you actually gone thru SERE training and seen the people that attended this training.?

Back in the day SERE was called Jungle survival school. I attended that school in 1967 or 68 in Panama. I can assure you I'm not a spook, a pilot or rambo. I was just a enlisted swine aircrew member. There were lot's of different aircrew members taking the course. there were also a few CCT guy's.

I "passed" the course If I remember correctly we had 4 days of classroom instuction and three days of living off the land in the jungle in panama with minimal supplies, with the objective to evade capture by the panamian jungle indians as we tried to make it back to a specific location.

I got caught by a wise old indian and gave him my hat, as proof that he caught me, evasion was the least of my prioities. But I still passed

I had a choice to attend what you call SERE training in eastern wa in the middle of the winter with the mock POW camp after we got captured

Or go to Panama where there was a jungle, and only had to attempt to evade the indians in a jungle enviroment..

If we got shot down it was going to be flying over a nice warm jungle. IMO our chances of getting shot down in a C-130 were minimal.

SC is what it is. so continue argueing about torturing the special operators. Someone already answered the issue about torturing special ops folks in a school with a known duration vs being in a real POW camp like the Hanoi Hilton. for 5-7 yr's.

One Jump Wonder

[Amazon 7]

You can always go back for a "vacation"

http://www.rainforestcouncil.com/

Hangin with the Choco rocked...

I doubt Antonio is still around to "capture" you though.... he would be over 100 now

[freethefly 6]

LOL I went to reply and saw that you removed Rogerian!
Rogerian and Gestalt are two different forms of therapy. One is person centered, the other is the process of awareness of the here and now.
I am well aware of Gestalt and Fritz Perl. as a matter of fact, I have posted his famous Gestalt Prayer on this site several times. I first learned of Perls in 1973 when I was 13 years old. I was somewhat of a hippie, way back then. I had the black light poster on my bedroom wall.
The Gestalt Prayer
I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I,
and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.

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You speak from behind the bars of your cage.

Not sure what that is suppose to mean. I'll try though.
I'm in no cage and behind no bars. I am more free than yourself. I do not constrain myself to a religion of any form. I am free to be who I am. You, on the other hand bind yourself to religion. You use it to justify your shortcomings. You give no credit to yourself and everything to a God. You have no trust in the power of being human and leave everything to faith.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[RonD1120 58]

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LOL I went to reply and saw that you removed Rogerian!
Rogerian and Gestalt are two different forms of therapy. One is person centered, the other is the process of awareness of the here and now.
I am well aware of Gestalt and Fritz Perl. as a matter of fact, I have posted his famous Gestalt Prayer on this site several times. I first learned of Perls in 1973 when I was 13 years old. I was somewhat of a hippie, way back then. I had the black light poster on my bedroom wall.
The Gestalt Prayer
I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I,
and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.

I just came back to remove the whole message. I was in the consciousness sphere of another conversation. However, the Gestalt does apply.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wsd 0]

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We do not agree but you stayed respectful

more than kallend and dreamy boy can say

i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered...

Then quit torturing others with your postings, it could drive others insane.

[kallend 1,647]

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We do not agree but you stayed respectful

more than kallend and dreamy boy can say

i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered...

Then quit torturing others with your postings, it could drive others insane.

No one forces you to read this forum. If you do it voluntarily it's just masochism.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DanG 1]

I did what they call SERE-B, which is just classroom stuff. I don't claim to have done SERE. That would be like someone who sat through ground school claiming to be a skydiver.

I know a bunch of people who did do SERE. Like I said, the training is for those who are likely (I suppose I should have said "most likely") to find themselves behind enemy lines. It is not, as some have implied, a course on how to torture people. From my understanding (from the outside) most of the training is focused on the Survive, Evade, and Escape. Resistance is only one aspect.

- Dan G

[Amazon 7]

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I did what they call SERE-B, which is just classroom stuff. I don't claim to have done SERE. That would be like someone who sat through ground school claiming to be a skydiver.

I know a bunch of people who did do SERE. Like I said, the training is for those who are likely (I suppose I should have said "most likely") to find themselves behind enemy lines. It is not, as some have implied, a course on how to torture people. From my understanding (from the outside) most of the training is focused on the Survive, Evade, and Escape. Resistance is only one aspect.

I always thought of the Resistance portion as a great motivational tool for the college boys to do far better on the Survival and Evasion portions after they got the training then they would not have to do that whole Escape thang

[freethefly 6]

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It is not, as some have implied, a course on how to torture people.

I've often found that it is those who never felt a need to serve their country are the ones who talk like they know all there is about what happens in the military.
I guess if you watch enough reruns of M.A.S.H., McHale's Navy, and Hogan's Heroes you are bound to learn something.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Amazon 7]

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It is not, as some have implied, a course on how to torture people.

I've often found that it is those who never felt a need to serve their country are the ones who talk like they know all there is about what happens in the military.
I guess if you watch enough reruns of M.A.S.H., McHale's Navy, and Hogan's Heroes you are bound to learn something.

People like that need to be waterboared to unconsiousness about a dozen times till they realize that maybe those who defined the terms in the Geneva Conventions had a bit more insight into the practices that are identified and known as torture and then added those techniques to a list of proscribed practices not to be used amoung civilized peoples on this planet.

[bigbearfng 16]

Seems like a lot of naive people around.
You think every country hasn't done "whatever neccesary" over the years? You think if torture did lead to Osama that we would ever really know?
Do you really think the real secrets are ever going to come to light? At least not for a long while if ever?
Hey! Where's Jimmy Hoffa!!!!!!
Hell, what the Soviet Union had running in biological warfare factories during the cold war is still coming to light, and we'll probably never hear all of it. (They even weaponized Ebola-some scary shit!)
And if taking a terrorist and skinning the bastard alive (of course keep it a damn secret!-loose lips sink ships!) kept them from carrying out an attack on US schools like in Beslan Russia- think I'd really give a fuck?
I realize this post will probably stir up some shit-I just consider it a dose of reality.....
Fact is intel has come out of Afghanistan that one of their plans has been attacks on US middle schools. If that intel has helped prevent that horror from happening to your own kids would you honestly give a fuck how it was obtained?

[dreamdancer 0]

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We do not agree but you stayed respectful

more than kallend and dreamy boy can say

i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered...

Another false premise you learned from where?

you're saying that it is ok for the state to torture its citizens - ie me. you can shove that opinion where the sun don't shine...

No, I am not

yes you are. its fine by you for the state to torture its citizens. you keep saying it - then denying it...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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Seems like a lot of naive people around.

the stupid ones who think torture is ok by the state are the ones i worry about...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Krip 2]

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You can always go back for a "vacation"

http://www.rainforestcouncil.com/

Hangin with the Choco rocked...

I doubt Antonio is still around to "capture" you though.... he would be over 100 now

Damn Amazon

Now everyone knows where I got my JSC training BS story from. No torture required I confess it was from that websight.

Why pay a unknown amount of $$$ to attend the "real course" in the link you provided when you can read the info on the websight and fill in the blanks.

Reminds me about my one and only tandem skydive. Of course I had to pay xtra for the video so I could prove to everyone how brave I was by putting my butt on the line by jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.

FWIW The 100 yr old dude could still capture me. We grew older at the same time he just had a head start on me so we're both 40+ yr's older. It's not like he had to whao to capture me. He just hid behind a tree or something next to the trail and popped up as we walked by.

SC is what it is, and the internet is what it is.

One Jump Wonder

[RonD1120 58]

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Seems like a lot of naive people around.
You think every country hasn't done "whatever neccesary" over the years? You think if torture did lead to Osama that we would ever really know?
Do you really think the real secrets are ever going to come to light? At least not for a long while if ever?
Hey! Where's Jimmy Hoffa!!!!!!
Hell, what the Soviet Union had running in biological warfare factories during the cold war is still coming to light, and we'll probably never hear all of it. (They even weaponized Ebola-some scary shit!)
And if taking a terrorist and skinning the bastard alive (of course keep it a damn secret!-loose lips sink ships!) kept them from carrying out an attack on US schools like in Beslan Russia- think I'd really give a fuck?
I realize this post will probably stir up some shit-I just consider it a dose of reality.....
Fact is intel has come out of Afghanistan that one of their plans has been attacks on US middle schools. If that intel has helped prevent that horror from happening to your own kids would you honestly give a fuck how it was obtained?

I'm going to stand on your side.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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Seems like a lot of naive people around.

the stupid ones who think torture is ok by the state are the ones i worry about...

I am bothered by those who believe it is OK for America to be the victim and not retaliate.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.