DanG 1 #151 February 25, 2011 Your argument presupposes that everything that has been created was designed by some form of intelligence. You said that all of the material in the universe was created at the start, but that's not the same as saying that someone sat dowwn and designed it all. The creation of a hydrogen atom does not require conscious thought. In other words, the problem with your logic is that you are assuming the conclusion, and then using that assumption to support itself. And from the science side of things, just because all the space and time present in the universe today came from a sigularity, doesn't mean that there was nothing "before" the singularity. I put "before" in quotes since our timeline did not exist before the sigularity expanded. Other timelines, possibly including one where our singularity came from, may have existed, and maybe were the cause of our current expansion. We don't know, and we may never know. Either way, there is no requirement for intelligent design (note the small letters) for the creation of our universe to occur. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #152 February 25, 2011 Haha well now I can prevent you from moving a bit more ;) QuoteYou’ve tried to show that God isn’t needed for design, and I’ve shown that He is. The only problem with that statement is that you haven't, not in any way. What you have provided is a theory for creation. Nowhere have you shown that he is needed for design. And in return I have provided you with the statement that says if infinity exists, there is no need for God as something can exist from nothing. To show me God is needed for design you'd have to prove that 'design' cannot happen by random and by proving this it would mean you have conquered the exact same thing Einstein spent decades trying to prove, but could never despite having the works on his death bed during his last days. And until you do, God is not NEEDED for design and is merely 1 more theory with no extra validity. QuoteI think that everyone having those shackles would make this world quite nice. Whether or not you believe in the origin and actual meaning of the Bible, you have to agree that if people love their neighbors as themselves, the world would be a pretty excellent place to live in. I think not, I know many Christians and many Atheists and there is no difference in their character when it comes to being decent human beings. Irony of it is that the Christians are often the more violent, aggressive and drunken ones. God isn't the thing that keeps one's morals in check, I know this because as I've stated I was Christian for 18 years and after which I didn't become a rogue evil person, the only thing that changed was I started to blaspheme. And as a previous poster has said they were never a believer and yet they were never a terrible person... That's got nothing to do with God, the values the bible teaches are just basic values for living in society and have nothing to do with God. Since you brought this up I'll assume you didn't watch that video I posted earlier in the thread, when you find time I suggest you do because he addresses this exact issue, about morals being anything that makes other people happy and healthy. And to live in a society and succeed as humans we need to have these characteristics because if you make people feel shitty and you're a dick to them constantly, you will only be shooting yourself in the foot since we live in communities. It's a fairly long video but he addresses this matter flawlessly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flashvortx 0 #153 February 25, 2011 QuoteTo me, the problem with your argument is that you seem to be saying that "everything" in our world has a designer. And by "everything," you mean everything designed by man, which is such a tiny and insignificant amount of "stuff" compared with everything else that exists (that we are aware of, and then some). But you're grouping ALL of that other stuff into this one "thing" (the universe) and saying that since "everything" requires a designer, then this _one_ other thing (the universe) also requires a designer. So I think one of the main errors in your argument (in my opinion) is the amount of significance you're giving to the stuff designed by man. The stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If we discover another planet with life that designs things, then we could start arguing using their stuff, but for the time being we are restricted to what we know. And is our stuff really that insignificant? Yes, in relation to the universe, it is smaller we can comprehend. However, we have largely dominated this world of ours. Sure there are things we can’t control yet, but we’ve done some amazing things and we’re on the edge of expanding out into our solar system. That’s not to compare my iPhone to the splendor of the universe, but to say that if the simple things require a creator, why wouldn’t the complex? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flashvortx 0 #154 February 25, 2011 Quote Quote [Quote]Kepler did not base his discoveries upon faith as Einstein did not base his.[/Quote] I've never said it takes faith to discover something. Einstein's work better showed how the world works and has worked in the past. He didn't come up with a formula guaranteeing that it will always work that way. So far, the only one to come close to arguing my actual points has been Meso. Everyone else changes what I'm saying to make it easy to argue. Meso has only done that a few times No, YOU changed your points when your contradictions were pointed out to you. Absolutely not true. Bring the evidence hombre! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #155 February 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteIF there was a God who created the universe and all that was in it, wouldn't human understanding pale to His? Yes, it likely would. Good, I'm glad you came to that realization. QuoteBut to even consider that premise you need to already make the assumption that he exists. So to use the idea that "God exists because we can't understand his plans and his nature" is no different than to say "Faeries exist because we can't understand the magical world". Strawman...nobody was using that as an argument for God's exsistence. Most people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinct.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flashvortx 0 #156 February 25, 2011 [Quote] This sounds like you're saying that Christians only argue for benevolent reasons, and that any atheist who would argue back is simply selfish.[/Quote] No, no, no, no, no! I didn’t say “Christians.” I said, “I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell, so that is why I argue.” There are other reasons but that’s the jist of it. The “religion” of Christianity, or the public image of it, is not what it should be. The name is messed up by those who claim it but live the same life as everyone (and yes I’m included in that). I prefer to say that I am a follower of Christ, in that I look at His teachings and struggle through trying to live by them. [Quote] Are we just supposed to sit there and listen while people use illogical arguments to try to convert us?[/Quote] Well this thread is basically an argument, so obviously I’m not here to preach and I obviously don’t believe you’re here to listen, nor do I expect that. I’m here to argue with what whoever wants to bring. I’m not mad that you’re arguing back with me. I expect it. [Quote] I have never believed in God, but I can assure you that there have always been consequences for my actions. My atheism does not mean that I am free to "live a life of chaos and not have any repercussions."[/Quote] I think that “a life of chaos” is probably defined differently by Christ and an Atheist. You might not be going around and murdering and raping whoever you want, but you’re free to be sexually immoral, steal, deceive, envy, and slander one another. I’m not saying that everyone that doesn’t believe in God or Christ is doing those things, but to do so would hardly matter. Those things carry heavy consequences to Christ followers. Edited for formatting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #157 February 25, 2011 QuoteThe stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If that's all you choose to argue with, then yes, that's all you've got. But I think we'll just have to disagree there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flashvortx 0 #158 February 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If that's all you choose to argue with, then yes, that's all you've got. But I think we'll just have to disagree there. I've already argued in other ways. That quote is saying that we dont have stuff made by aliens to argue with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #159 February 25, 2011 QuoteI think that “a life of chaos” is probably defined differently by Christ and an Atheist. You might not be going around and murdering and raping whoever you want, but you’re free to be sexually immoral, steal, deceive, envy, and slander one another. I’m not saying that everyone that doesn’t believe in God or Christ is doing those things, but to do so would hardly matter. Those things carry heavy consequences to Christ followers. There are consequences (here in this world) for all actions. Do I need to explain that? And yes, to do those things would matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #160 February 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If that's all you choose to argue with, then yes, that's all you've got. But I think we'll just have to disagree there. I've already argued in other ways. That quote is saying that we dont have stuff made by aliens to argue with. OK, sorry, I guess we're miscommunicating. What I meant was, most of the stuff in our world (people, oceans, air, planets, etc., etc., etc.) was not made by us. But if you choose to discount all of that other stuff (which is basically everything, compared to what we have made), then all you'll have to argue with is stuff made by man. And that's where I don't agree, but so be it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #161 February 25, 2011 And once again thanks for adding no insight and incorrect statements. Good thing you didn't try to address all the other facts that have been discussed, it'd probably end up in an equally as pointless mess of a post. QuoteGood, I'm glad you came to that realization. I never 'came to that realization', it's pretty obvious that if an all powerful and all knowing God that knows more than humans did that he would... well... be just that? It's like saying "Santa Clause lives in the North Pole and delivers presents... If you thought that this Santa Clause existed, would you believe he lived in the North Pole and delivered presents?"... Why the hell not, that's what he is described to be? For him to exist he'd have to be that. QuoteStrawman...nobody was using that as an argument for God's exsistence. Then what value does the question hold at all? No one is denying that if God did exist he would be smarter than humans. The only thing I can assume you're trying to say is that we don't know God's workings so we can't justify his doings or prove his existence, but since we don't know we can assume that he exists? You can't possibly be trying to say something so absurd... As I said, for that statement to even make the slightest bit of sense in any way, one has to already assume that God exists. And the analogies may be over-used but they're extremely effective as they parallel your thinking in every way except for object in question, yet they are without valid reason rejected. So here is another: The universe has always existed, but since we are merely a small part of the universe with so much left to discover, wouldn't our understanding of science be so limited that we wouldn't understand the concept of infinity and existence without creation? And then I'm back on par with your so-called logic. Making assumptions and then using the "we'd never really know" to prove that assumption. As said before... The statement can be used for any single theory one proposes, it holds no weight and is a weak concept that outlines the flawed 'logic' that people try to use. QuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinct. Wonder why that is? Oh yes, that's right... Because for centuries people only knew the universe as the world they saw before them. They thought everything needed a creator because that's the principle here on earth, they thought that time existed in space the same way earth time does... They were only recently in the context of things, shown otherwise. Only recently have humans even begun to understand the differences between the universe, quantum physics and what they saw with their eyes. Naturally they're going to think everything needs a creator when that's all they've been used to when looking at life on earth, which is only a very small part of the universe. If your argument even had any weight it would show humans over time worshiping a similar God, instead previous religions had a separate God for different parts of the world, a different God to describe different scientific and astrological events. Believing in something larger and more powerful is/was human nature, but too bad your Abrahamic God was never followed until only a couple thousand years ago. Showing it's the concept that is human nature, not the god itself. Your God only really spread when it was pushed outwards, people just grabbed onto it in areas because they had that same human desire to want to explain things but didn't have the scientific means back then to do so. Luckily as time goes on we won't need to resort to backwards faith to determine how things work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #162 February 25, 2011 Quote Quote Faith != Logic Did you just say that faith equals logic? Or does != mean something in a forum that I don't know about? mean not equal != means it equals, but you are REALLY excited about it ( - unless you're a programming nerd) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,150 #163 February 25, 2011 Quote mean not equal != means it equals, but you are REALLY excited about it Thanks, I needed that. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,150 #164 February 25, 2011 QuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinctGod is unprovable; that's what faith is about. Science is about measuring and proving; religion is about connecting to the immeasurable and unprovable. They are different. Love what you have and be an example (which you generally are), and don't try to use the hammer of science to prove the green of religion. They're not related. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #165 February 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinctGod is unprovable; that's what faith is about. Science is about measuring and proving; religion is about connecting to the immeasurable and unprovable. They are different. Love what you have and be an example (which you generally are), and don't try to use the hammer of science to prove the green of religion. They're not related. Wendy P. I agree. I wasn't using the hammer of science to prove anything. I've always argued in favor of faith...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #166 February 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote [Quote]Kepler did not base his discoveries upon faith as Einstein did not base his.[/Quote] I've never said it takes faith to discover something. Einstein's work better showed how the world works and has worked in the past. He didn't come up with a formula guaranteeing that it will always work that way. So far, the only one to come close to arguing my actual points has been Meso. Everyone else changes what I'm saying to make it easy to argue. Meso has only done that a few times No, YOU changed your points when your contradictions were pointed out to you. Absolutely not true. Bring the evidence hombre! It's right here, in this thread.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #167 February 25, 2011 QuoteSo you're saying that science has produced a tool that can look into the future and prove that the way things are today will continue to be that way in the future? Actually, I said no such thing in my reply. As for your statement, I'll answer as if it were a question. Science produces models in which to base predictions upon. This is done daily, throughout the world. The weather reports are an example of predicting the future. They are not asking some mystical entity for an answer to what's to come, but rely on science to base their predictions upon. True to science, even the weather report is not an absolute, but an experiment left open to variation, as well as peer review. QuoteAs far as I know, nobody out there can guarantee that water will boil at 212 F tomorrow or in 100 years. Boiling point is dependent on atmospheric pressure. 212F is not an absolute. QuoteIt's faith that lets us believe that our measurements like that will continue to be reliable. Again, science is not faith nor is it even fact. There is nothing created by man nor nature that is 100% reliable. If you are capable of doing so, cast away your faith for a few minutes and view the universe with a purely scientific outlook. The possibilities of what may exist are infinite. QuoteIf it's not faith (one definition being confidence or trust in a person or thing), then what is it? Do you take faith with you when you skydive? If so, why practice EP's? As I said, faith is a fool's crutch which supports nothing. One can not base a given outcome upon faith. Outcomes are based upon models of the past which also reveal variations that may or may not arise in the future. All that we create is born through the process of trial and error. In essence, science is the process of trial and error. Elmer Sperry did not develop the NDT process of induction flaw detection overnight. It took a number of years to find what worked and what did not. The NDT processes that are used today are in a constant state of change as is any process. Science demands that we march into the future while reshaping our process for doing so. Faith demands that we close our eyes and hope for the best."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #168 February 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Faith != Logic Did you just say that faith equals logic? Or does != mean something in a forum that I don't know about? mean not equal != means it equals, but you are REALLY excited about it ( - unless you're a programming nerd) Both and != are common programming expressions for does not equal."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #169 February 26, 2011 QuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinct. The notion of a god is not "instinct" as you imply. Instinct is instilled in the sub-conscious mind and arises to a specific stimuli. Where-as the notion of a god is a conditioning process used by an authoritative figure/body to instill fear (Do as God says, or burn in Hell.) One cannot fear what has not been learned, be it right or wrong."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #170 February 26, 2011 Quote The scientific method is used to investigate, correct, or acquire. It does not and cannot predict the future. It can be used to say that water has boiled at exactly 212 F in the past, but it cannot prove that it will continue to happen in the future. Scientists rely on faith that it will continue to happen since there is no way to prove it. Science cannot prove the reliability of nature. This is a very strange example to have chosen, when you could have picked on dark matter or other incomplete theories. The boiling point of water (as well as the freezing point) is well understood, and there is no need for faith that it will continue to be the same in the future. The fun, smart ass answer to prove this - for a considerable period of time 212F and 100F was defined as the boiling point of water at 1atm, so it would always have to be true. But if instead you wanted the physics explained, that is also doable. This quality of science discussion is on par with claims that the world is 6000 years old. Everyone here should be adults educated to a higher level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #171 February 26, 2011 Quotethe notion of a god is a conditioning process used by an authoritative figure/body to instill fear (Do as God says, or burn in Hell.) How people interpret and apply God to their lives is a different topic. I'm sorry if that was your experience.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #172 February 26, 2011 Damn Nothing-Thumpers trying to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #173 February 26, 2011 QuoteQuotethe notion of a god is a conditioning process used by an authoritative figure/body to instill fear (Do as God says, or burn in Hell.) How people interpret and apply God to their lives is a different topic. I'm sorry if that was your experience. Do you fear going to "Hell"? My experience was the same as many young children who went to Sunday school. In my case, it was Baptist Sunday school. Many are taught of a god starting with their parents. Just believing in a god requires a level of fear. Go against your "God" and you pay the price of his wrath! Tell me, where is there not fear in the faith that a "God" exist?"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #174 February 26, 2011 QuoteDo you fear going to "Hell"? Yes, but not because God will send me there... QuoteMy experience was the same as many young children who went to Sunday school. In my case, it was Baptist Sunday school. Meh...you got off easy, I went to a catholic school. QuoteTell me, where is there not fear in the faith that a "God" exist? Is that why you don't believe in God, because it's scary?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #175 February 26, 2011 Quote Quote You guys... Science...faith... If it's provable it's science? If it's NOT provable it's...what....fantasy? Then you go and inject probability into it. Here's some science.. Give it a test and prove both the position AND the momentum of an electron. Maybe God is playing with you. . Maybe you are playing a hand you don't fully understand. ...and you would be correct. I never did get a grasp on that quantum mechanics religion. Maybe I'm playing with you guys. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 7 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
flashvortx 0 #156 February 25, 2011 [Quote] This sounds like you're saying that Christians only argue for benevolent reasons, and that any atheist who would argue back is simply selfish.[/Quote] No, no, no, no, no! I didn’t say “Christians.” I said, “I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell, so that is why I argue.” There are other reasons but that’s the jist of it. The “religion” of Christianity, or the public image of it, is not what it should be. The name is messed up by those who claim it but live the same life as everyone (and yes I’m included in that). I prefer to say that I am a follower of Christ, in that I look at His teachings and struggle through trying to live by them. [Quote] Are we just supposed to sit there and listen while people use illogical arguments to try to convert us?[/Quote] Well this thread is basically an argument, so obviously I’m not here to preach and I obviously don’t believe you’re here to listen, nor do I expect that. I’m here to argue with what whoever wants to bring. I’m not mad that you’re arguing back with me. I expect it. [Quote] I have never believed in God, but I can assure you that there have always been consequences for my actions. My atheism does not mean that I am free to "live a life of chaos and not have any repercussions."[/Quote] I think that “a life of chaos” is probably defined differently by Christ and an Atheist. You might not be going around and murdering and raping whoever you want, but you’re free to be sexually immoral, steal, deceive, envy, and slander one another. I’m not saying that everyone that doesn’t believe in God or Christ is doing those things, but to do so would hardly matter. Those things carry heavy consequences to Christ followers. Edited for formatting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #157 February 25, 2011 QuoteThe stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If that's all you choose to argue with, then yes, that's all you've got. But I think we'll just have to disagree there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flashvortx 0 #158 February 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If that's all you choose to argue with, then yes, that's all you've got. But I think we'll just have to disagree there. I've already argued in other ways. That quote is saying that we dont have stuff made by aliens to argue with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #159 February 25, 2011 QuoteI think that “a life of chaos” is probably defined differently by Christ and an Atheist. You might not be going around and murdering and raping whoever you want, but you’re free to be sexually immoral, steal, deceive, envy, and slander one another. I’m not saying that everyone that doesn’t believe in God or Christ is doing those things, but to do so would hardly matter. Those things carry heavy consequences to Christ followers. There are consequences (here in this world) for all actions. Do I need to explain that? And yes, to do those things would matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #160 February 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If that's all you choose to argue with, then yes, that's all you've got. But I think we'll just have to disagree there. I've already argued in other ways. That quote is saying that we dont have stuff made by aliens to argue with. OK, sorry, I guess we're miscommunicating. What I meant was, most of the stuff in our world (people, oceans, air, planets, etc., etc., etc.) was not made by us. But if you choose to discount all of that other stuff (which is basically everything, compared to what we have made), then all you'll have to argue with is stuff made by man. And that's where I don't agree, but so be it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #161 February 25, 2011 And once again thanks for adding no insight and incorrect statements. Good thing you didn't try to address all the other facts that have been discussed, it'd probably end up in an equally as pointless mess of a post. QuoteGood, I'm glad you came to that realization. I never 'came to that realization', it's pretty obvious that if an all powerful and all knowing God that knows more than humans did that he would... well... be just that? It's like saying "Santa Clause lives in the North Pole and delivers presents... If you thought that this Santa Clause existed, would you believe he lived in the North Pole and delivered presents?"... Why the hell not, that's what he is described to be? For him to exist he'd have to be that. QuoteStrawman...nobody was using that as an argument for God's exsistence. Then what value does the question hold at all? No one is denying that if God did exist he would be smarter than humans. The only thing I can assume you're trying to say is that we don't know God's workings so we can't justify his doings or prove his existence, but since we don't know we can assume that he exists? You can't possibly be trying to say something so absurd... As I said, for that statement to even make the slightest bit of sense in any way, one has to already assume that God exists. And the analogies may be over-used but they're extremely effective as they parallel your thinking in every way except for object in question, yet they are without valid reason rejected. So here is another: The universe has always existed, but since we are merely a small part of the universe with so much left to discover, wouldn't our understanding of science be so limited that we wouldn't understand the concept of infinity and existence without creation? And then I'm back on par with your so-called logic. Making assumptions and then using the "we'd never really know" to prove that assumption. As said before... The statement can be used for any single theory one proposes, it holds no weight and is a weak concept that outlines the flawed 'logic' that people try to use. QuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinct. Wonder why that is? Oh yes, that's right... Because for centuries people only knew the universe as the world they saw before them. They thought everything needed a creator because that's the principle here on earth, they thought that time existed in space the same way earth time does... They were only recently in the context of things, shown otherwise. Only recently have humans even begun to understand the differences between the universe, quantum physics and what they saw with their eyes. Naturally they're going to think everything needs a creator when that's all they've been used to when looking at life on earth, which is only a very small part of the universe. If your argument even had any weight it would show humans over time worshiping a similar God, instead previous religions had a separate God for different parts of the world, a different God to describe different scientific and astrological events. Believing in something larger and more powerful is/was human nature, but too bad your Abrahamic God was never followed until only a couple thousand years ago. Showing it's the concept that is human nature, not the god itself. Your God only really spread when it was pushed outwards, people just grabbed onto it in areas because they had that same human desire to want to explain things but didn't have the scientific means back then to do so. Luckily as time goes on we won't need to resort to backwards faith to determine how things work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #162 February 25, 2011 Quote Quote Faith != Logic Did you just say that faith equals logic? Or does != mean something in a forum that I don't know about? mean not equal != means it equals, but you are REALLY excited about it ( - unless you're a programming nerd) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,150 #163 February 25, 2011 Quote mean not equal != means it equals, but you are REALLY excited about it Thanks, I needed that. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,150 #164 February 25, 2011 QuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinctGod is unprovable; that's what faith is about. Science is about measuring and proving; religion is about connecting to the immeasurable and unprovable. They are different. Love what you have and be an example (which you generally are), and don't try to use the hammer of science to prove the green of religion. They're not related. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #165 February 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinctGod is unprovable; that's what faith is about. Science is about measuring and proving; religion is about connecting to the immeasurable and unprovable. They are different. Love what you have and be an example (which you generally are), and don't try to use the hammer of science to prove the green of religion. They're not related. Wendy P. I agree. I wasn't using the hammer of science to prove anything. I've always argued in favor of faith...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #166 February 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote [Quote]Kepler did not base his discoveries upon faith as Einstein did not base his.[/Quote] I've never said it takes faith to discover something. Einstein's work better showed how the world works and has worked in the past. He didn't come up with a formula guaranteeing that it will always work that way. So far, the only one to come close to arguing my actual points has been Meso. Everyone else changes what I'm saying to make it easy to argue. Meso has only done that a few times No, YOU changed your points when your contradictions were pointed out to you. Absolutely not true. Bring the evidence hombre! It's right here, in this thread.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #167 February 25, 2011 QuoteSo you're saying that science has produced a tool that can look into the future and prove that the way things are today will continue to be that way in the future? Actually, I said no such thing in my reply. As for your statement, I'll answer as if it were a question. Science produces models in which to base predictions upon. This is done daily, throughout the world. The weather reports are an example of predicting the future. They are not asking some mystical entity for an answer to what's to come, but rely on science to base their predictions upon. True to science, even the weather report is not an absolute, but an experiment left open to variation, as well as peer review. QuoteAs far as I know, nobody out there can guarantee that water will boil at 212 F tomorrow or in 100 years. Boiling point is dependent on atmospheric pressure. 212F is not an absolute. QuoteIt's faith that lets us believe that our measurements like that will continue to be reliable. Again, science is not faith nor is it even fact. There is nothing created by man nor nature that is 100% reliable. If you are capable of doing so, cast away your faith for a few minutes and view the universe with a purely scientific outlook. The possibilities of what may exist are infinite. QuoteIf it's not faith (one definition being confidence or trust in a person or thing), then what is it? Do you take faith with you when you skydive? If so, why practice EP's? As I said, faith is a fool's crutch which supports nothing. One can not base a given outcome upon faith. Outcomes are based upon models of the past which also reveal variations that may or may not arise in the future. All that we create is born through the process of trial and error. In essence, science is the process of trial and error. Elmer Sperry did not develop the NDT process of induction flaw detection overnight. It took a number of years to find what worked and what did not. The NDT processes that are used today are in a constant state of change as is any process. Science demands that we march into the future while reshaping our process for doing so. Faith demands that we close our eyes and hope for the best."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #168 February 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Faith != Logic Did you just say that faith equals logic? Or does != mean something in a forum that I don't know about? mean not equal != means it equals, but you are REALLY excited about it ( - unless you're a programming nerd) Both and != are common programming expressions for does not equal."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #169 February 26, 2011 QuoteMost people of the world don't need an argument for God's exsistence...it's a basic human instinct. The notion of a god is not "instinct" as you imply. Instinct is instilled in the sub-conscious mind and arises to a specific stimuli. Where-as the notion of a god is a conditioning process used by an authoritative figure/body to instill fear (Do as God says, or burn in Hell.) One cannot fear what has not been learned, be it right or wrong."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #170 February 26, 2011 Quote The scientific method is used to investigate, correct, or acquire. It does not and cannot predict the future. It can be used to say that water has boiled at exactly 212 F in the past, but it cannot prove that it will continue to happen in the future. Scientists rely on faith that it will continue to happen since there is no way to prove it. Science cannot prove the reliability of nature. This is a very strange example to have chosen, when you could have picked on dark matter or other incomplete theories. The boiling point of water (as well as the freezing point) is well understood, and there is no need for faith that it will continue to be the same in the future. The fun, smart ass answer to prove this - for a considerable period of time 212F and 100F was defined as the boiling point of water at 1atm, so it would always have to be true. But if instead you wanted the physics explained, that is also doable. This quality of science discussion is on par with claims that the world is 6000 years old. Everyone here should be adults educated to a higher level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #171 February 26, 2011 Quotethe notion of a god is a conditioning process used by an authoritative figure/body to instill fear (Do as God says, or burn in Hell.) How people interpret and apply God to their lives is a different topic. I'm sorry if that was your experience.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #172 February 26, 2011 Damn Nothing-Thumpers trying to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #173 February 26, 2011 QuoteQuotethe notion of a god is a conditioning process used by an authoritative figure/body to instill fear (Do as God says, or burn in Hell.) How people interpret and apply God to their lives is a different topic. I'm sorry if that was your experience. Do you fear going to "Hell"? My experience was the same as many young children who went to Sunday school. In my case, it was Baptist Sunday school. Many are taught of a god starting with their parents. Just believing in a god requires a level of fear. Go against your "God" and you pay the price of his wrath! Tell me, where is there not fear in the faith that a "God" exist?"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #174 February 26, 2011 QuoteDo you fear going to "Hell"? Yes, but not because God will send me there... QuoteMy experience was the same as many young children who went to Sunday school. In my case, it was Baptist Sunday school. Meh...you got off easy, I went to a catholic school. QuoteTell me, where is there not fear in the faith that a "God" exist? Is that why you don't believe in God, because it's scary?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #175 February 26, 2011 Quote Quote You guys... Science...faith... If it's provable it's science? If it's NOT provable it's...what....fantasy? Then you go and inject probability into it. Here's some science.. Give it a test and prove both the position AND the momentum of an electron. Maybe God is playing with you. . Maybe you are playing a hand you don't fully understand. ...and you would be correct. I never did get a grasp on that quantum mechanics religion. Maybe I'm playing with you guys. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
