Economy still sucks, unemployment is still high, yet the rich just keep getting richer.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>You work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and win.

Good example - because for most people, you work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and you lose. To win the Olympics you need to do all the above and have the genetics to allow you to be just slightly better than all the other people who are doing the same. You can work as hard as is humanly possible - if you don't have a strong heart and lungs, you're not going to win any cross country skiing events.

With employment, you have the same issue.

Athletics at the elite level does have the genetic discrimination, but in this day, few if any can win without putting in a level effort few of us could undertake. There are now plenty of gifted athletes competing, so that advantage doesn't do it alone anymore.

Take Jerry Rice - I doubt he was the most gifted of wide receivers, but he was renowned for his off season workouts, which allowed him to recover from the knee injury and play till he was 38. Karl Malone did the same with the NBA.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Opportunity = luck
Preparation = being able to take advantage of it
Hard work = part of preparation

But luck really is a part of it. It's often easy to see what should have been done in retrospect, but not nearly as easy to see it ahead of time.

Winners make their luck. Preparation and effort make it easier to take advantage of opportunities.

[quade 3]

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Winners make their luck. Preparation and effort make it easier to take advantage of opportunities.

So does cheating, which I think we've also seen from time to time.

Did the folks that cheated to win work harder?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

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>Now -- compare the Denny's waitress in Vegas and one in Florida (not Disney).

Or compare the Denny's waitress in Vegas to a waitress at the cafe in Hamdallaye, Niger. The waitress in Hamdallaye is not going to have the opportunities that the waitress in Vegas has no matter how hard she works (although it's still a good idea, of course.)

Way to jump outside the box!

Are the customers in Niger Americans, or non tipping Eurotrash?

And all the lucky ones make 250k now I guess as well

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

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Winners make their luck. Preparation and effort make it easier to take advantage of opportunities.

So does cheating, which I think we've also seen from time to time.

Did the folks that cheated to win work harder?

Since you won't define the terms, only you can answer your question.

[rushmc 18]

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Opportunity = luck
Preparation = being able to take advantage of it
Hard work = part of preparation

But luck really is a part of it. It's often easy to see what should have been done in retrospect, but not nearly as easy to see it ahead of time.

Wendy P.

Luck is, for the most part, made or earned IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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Seems to me thast hard work, sacrifice, and determination gets you better reward.

No disagreement there. But they don't guarantee it, and the reward is not a good measure of the effort, unless you make sure you're comparing apples to apples (or similar jobs in similar places).

Wendy P.

Wendy, Nothing is guaranteed! And that is where the libs go nuts today. Everybody has to get or be equal.

Punish the hard workers and give to the rest

With a little luck, we can guarantee that will not be going to happen after Nov

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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>You work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and win.

Good example - because for most people, you work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and you lose. To win the Olympics you need to do all the above and have the genetics to allow you to be just slightly better than all the other people who are doing the same. You can work as hard as is humanly possible - if you don't have a strong heart and lungs, you're not going to win any cross country skiing events.

With employment, you have the same issue. Hard work is just one of the reasons you get ahead. Others are educational opportunities, raw talent (i.e. IQ, personality) family environment and sheer luck. All the hard work in the world won't make up for an IQ of 75.

> As long as you have worked harder than the people around you vying
>for the same job, you succeed.

Not true at all; see above.

You define losing here as not being the winner. In sports? OK, but what is being talked about here is not something measured in absolutes now is it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

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Winners make their luck. Preparation and effort make it easier to take advantage of opportunities.

So does cheating, which I think we've also seen from time to time.
Did the folks that cheated to win work harder?

Since you won't define the terms, only you can answer your question.

Any definition of the word harder as it pertains to work you want to use.

Or do you really think people who cheat and win are the people who have worked harder.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Rstanley0312 0]

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No, that is why you put more work into engineering to increase the power. If the race driver lost because of the car he was driving, he didn't work hard enough on getting into the right car.

This is untrue and especially in auto racing where luck plays an enormous part of who does or doesn't get tangled up in an accident through no fault of their own.

Which is of course why Jimmie Johnson has been on top so long..... that is a lot of luck to a degree I agree with you but that is a small piece of it.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Rstanley0312 0]

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>You work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and win.

Good example - because for most people, you work hard, you train hard, you sacrifice, you get better, and you lose. To win the Olympics you need to do all the above and have the genetics to allow you to be just slightly better than all the other people who are doing the same. You can work as hard as is humanly possible - if you don't have a strong heart and lungs, you're not going to win any cross country skiing events.

With employment, you have the same issue.

Athletics at the elite level does have the genetic discrimination, but in this day, few if any can win without putting in a level effort few of us could undertake. There are now plenty of gifted athletes competing, so that advantage doesn't do it alone anymore.

Take Jerry Rice - I doubt he was the most gifted of wide receivers, but he was renowned for his off season workouts, which allowed him to recover from the knee injury and play till he was 38. Karl Malone did the same with the NBA.

or Peyton Manning... very talented yes but his work ethic makes him possibly the best that has played the game!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=ApbIN0nP1c0RfbJMGsISaIw5nYcB?slug=ms-morningrush092710

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[wmw999 2,172]

In the long run, harder work and recognizing opportunities will get you farther than not working hard or recognizing opportunities, at least the vast majority of the time.

It does not guarantee success, and success does not mean that you were that person.

Someone who wins the lottery can be rich (well, at least for awhile). Someone with parents who own a company can be an average worker making good money in an excellent job. Someone who was born in a bad neighborhood with lousy schools can be a hard worker and not even recognize some opportunities.

Luck is a component of success. Not the kind of luck you make by being ready for opportunities; the kind of luck that just happens randomly. Like being the waitress when a director shows up looking for a waitress, or being born intelligent, or being exposed to computers as a child in the 1970's.

It's not bad that luck is involved; the world is a pretty random place. But to ascribe success entirely to skill, work, and preparation is ridiculous.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Rstanley0312 0]

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In the long run, harder work and recognizing opportunities will get you farther than not working hard or recognizing opportunities, at least the vast majority of the time.

It does not guarantee success, and success does not mean that you were that person.

Someone who wins the lottery can be rich (well, at least for awhile). Someone with parents who own a company can be an average worker making good money in an excellent job. Someone who was born in a bad neighborhood with lousy schools can be a hard worker and not even recognize some opportunities.

Luck is a component of success. Not the kind of luck you make by being ready for opportunities; the kind of luck that just happens randomly. Like being the waitress when a director shows up looking for a waitress, or being born intelligent, or being exposed to computers as a child in the 1970's.

It's not bad that luck is involved; the world is a pretty random place. But to ascribe success entirely to skill, work, and preparation is ridiculous.

Wendy P.

That is why I agreed that there is a degree of luck involved but this idea of anyone being able to be the best or make the money the top 1% make is insane by the very definition of the word. Nothing is fair in life... "fair" is a human construct that looks great on paper but does no apply in the real world.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[wmw999 2,172]

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this idea of anyone being able to be the best or make the money the top 1% make is insane by the very definition of the word. Nothing is fair in life...

I agree. The converse is to say that it's also insane to ascribe entirely to hard work everyone's relative success or failure.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's not bad that luck is involved; the world is a pretty random place. But to ascribe success entirely to skill, work, and preparation is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous at all - you can't control that aspect. You can control the opportunistic "luck."

what motto works better for living one's life?
Be Prepared.
or
Shit Happens.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Winners make their luck. Preparation and effort make it easier to take advantage of opportunities.

So does cheating, which I think we've also seen from time to time.
Did the folks that cheated to win work harder?

Since you won't define the terms, only you can answer your question.

Any definition of the word harder as it pertains to work you want to use.

Or do you really think people who cheat and win are the people who have worked harder.

Now you have to resort to putting words in my mouth, to make up for your deficiency in argument? Pathetic.

Let's repeat for the slow readers:
"Since you won't define the terms, only you can answer your question." I gave no answer.

[quade 3]

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I gave no answer.

Nor will you. To give an answer in this case, you'd have to admit you were wrong about either this or other things.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[futuredivot 0]

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I gave no answer.

Nor will you. To give an answer in this case, you'd have to admit you were wrong about either this or other things.

And if you wish an answer-you're going to have to admit that you haven't been able or willing to communicate your definition. Circular ramblings with no substance-you can do better

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[quade 3]

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And if you wish an answer-you're going to have to admit that you haven't been able or willing to communicate your definition.

Because I haven't offered one. I've left it up to people to use the term however they see fit. I didn't use the term first, JP did. He was responding to my original question in this thread and responded with;

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Maybe some of them worked hard, risked loss, and earned it.

I responded to that with;

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Nobody is paid for how HARD they work.

And I stand by it.

You want to be pissy and try to find a definition, ask JP what he meant.

Nobody else seems confused by the definition, not even some of the people that post here and are frequently confused by other things. We all seem to understand what is meant by the word in both the physical and mental aspects.

Some folks are still confused about the truth of the statement, but you seem to be hung up on the definition of the word "hard." I'm allowing you to run free with it. Use it any way you'd like to make your case.

That's your problem pal, not mine.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,473]

>If the race driver lost because of the car he was driving, he didn't work
>hard enough on getting into the right car.

Ah. So if someone loses at the Olympics, they didn't work hard enough on getting the right genes.

[billvon 2,473]

> In sports? OK, but what is being talked about here is not something
>measured in absolutes now is it

Fair enough. If you want to define "success" as having a low paying job but being happy or something, then that's a fair definition. (Of course, by that measure, welfare recipients can be just as successful as anyone else.)

[billvon 2,473]

>what motto works better for living one's life?
>Be Prepared.
>Shit Happens.

Personally I use both. Skydiving is a good example. Always, always be prepared - but also realize that shit happens, even to the best prepared, safest skydivers out there.

[rushmc 18]

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> In sports? OK, but what is being talked about here is not something
>measured in absolutes now is it

Fair enough. If you want to define "success" as having a low paying job but being happy or something, then that's a fair definition. (Of course, by that measure, welfare recipients can be just as successful as anyone else.)

Nope fail again

Of course this is relative to the given field you chose to work in

But I guess (by your statements here) success is measured in dollars made when compared to who makes more,

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>what motto works better for living one's life?
>Be Prepared.
>Shit Happens.

Personally I use both. Skydiving is a good example. Always, always be prepared - but also realize that shit happens, even to the best prepared, safest skydivers out there.

So you don't work at being prepared?

I guess I dont feel that lucky

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

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>If the race driver lost because of the car he was driving, he didn't work
>hard enough on getting into the right car.

Ah. So if someone loses at the Olympics, they didn't work hard enough on getting the right genes.

No - they didn't work hard enough to over come limitations that others didn't have to.

Working hard also involves working more Efficiently. If he didn't win, then he or she should have worked harder and more efficiently in the training.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun