If I broke into your house . . .

[turtlespeed 212]

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This is simply not true. Resident and non-resident aliens are IRS definitions. They are only used for tax purposes.

The term "resident alien", at least, is used in an immigration context as well:

USCIS - Resident Alien

They are both used in different terms depending on the departmental definitions you are quoting.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,154]

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One is here to be educated, the other for work. Priorities.

In the US to be educated and leave. The other to work, pay taxes and remain in the US. Wouldn't a reasonable intelligent individual give priority to the second example?

And you didn't answer the first question, which part wasn't true.

You've called me stupid twice, yet you keep avoiding the argument and discussion. This should all be very easy for you.

(never mind that you still have not established the fourth group in your pecking order even exists)

[turtlespeed 212]

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One is here to be educated, the other for work. Priorities.

In the US to be educated and leave. The other to work, pay taxes and remain in the US. Wouldn't a reasonable intelligent individual give priority to the second example?

And you didn't answer the first question, which part wasn't true.

You've called me stupid twice, yet you keep avoiding the argument and discussion. This should all be very easy for you.

(never mind that you still have not established the fourth group in your pecking order even exists)

I called you deliberately obtuse. i then said that I maybe should retract that.

I did put the priorities in line -
Student visa work permit should come second in regards to the two choices that you list.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Amazon 7]

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Why is it our responsibility to "make their country not be shit holes"?

Not VIABLE? WTF? If we would stop all the foreign aid we give away, it would make a pretty good dent in our debt!

It is not the time to be nice and friendly. It is the time to take care of our own.

You do realize that the majority of our "financial aid" is also contractual and in support of treaties we have signed with other nations. Let’s not forget that it is in point of fact.. the usual corporate welfare to our defense contractors in the military industrial complex because the "aid" is military in nature. Humanitarian "aid" is also usually more corporate welfare to the pharmaceutical companies who bought and paid for their pet politicians.

[turtlespeed 212]

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One can be a resident alien for tax purposes but a nonresident alien for immigration purposes.

This is simply not true. Resident and non-resident aliens are IRS definitions. They are only used for tax purposes.


You can be a nonimmigrant resident alient, just as you can be a nonimmigrant non residential alien. Just as you can be either an immigrant resident alien or immigrant non-resident alien.

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The fourth category (none of the above) presumably consists of people who are in a legal limbo somewhere between nonresidence and residence.

No such thing. If you are a resident alien or non-resident alien, it by definition means you are legally allowed to work in the US.

Not necessarily true: There are restrictions. You don't have allowance to work carte blanche.

Example:https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/f1-student-visa.html

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

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You don't have allowance to work carte blanche.

man, I hate working the food service industry

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

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You don't have allowance to work carte blanche.

man, I hate working the food service industry

Why - tips are good, unless you are trying to get tipped by a foreigner.

Just in case you were trying to poke fun at my word usage.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,154]

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They are both used in different terms depending on the departmental definitions you are quoting.

In immigration resident alien is used for a collection of different immigration statii. It is not a separate immigration status. It is a separate status for the IRS as has been pointed out many times.

If you want to test that, try and find the definition of non-resident alien in that same linked USCIS glossary. Here is the link:

USCIS

[SkyDekker 1,154]

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There are restrictions. You don't have allowance to work carte blanche.

I never said there weren't restriction. I said that if you are a resident alien or non-resident alien, you are by definition allowed to work.

If the student never worked, they would be a nonimmigrant alien. If they worked, they would have to pay tax as a non-resident alien until they pass the green card or substantial presence test.

[turtlespeed 212]

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If you want to test that, try and find the definition of non-resident alien in that same linked USCIS glossary. Here is the link:

I just go to the Department of Labor for the definitions. They are after all the ones that are responsible for "work" after all.

Better yet, look up H4 visa.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,154]

Holder of H4 visa is not allowed to work in the US and is considered a nonimmigrant alien. (resident or non-resident doesn't come into the equasion, since they aren't allowed to work)

I have looked at the Department of Labor website, but cannot find their definition of non resident alien. Since you appear to have experience with their website, can you provide a link to their list of definitions?

[turtlespeed 212]

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Holder of H4 visa is not allowed to work in the US and is considered a nonimmigrant alien. (resident or non-resident doesn't come into the equasion, since they aren't allowed to work)

I have looked at the Department of Labor website, but cannot find their definition of non resident alien. Since you appear to have experience with their website, can you provide a link to their list of definitions?

They don't have a specific list - there are however several thousand hits when the term was used in a search engine

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Holder of H4 visa is not allowed to work in the US and is considered a nonimmigrant alien. (resident or non-resident doesn't come into the equasion, since they aren't allowed to work)

Au contraire--an H4 visa holder who is here for most of the year is definitely a resident alien for tax purposes. As such they are subject to US taxation on their worldwide income. Such income might include:

--Passive income from investments, which is certainly legal income even though they can't work

--Employment income earned during brief trips back home (or elsewhere outside the USA)--this is subject to US tax since they are a resident alien and taxed on world income

--Employment income illegally earned while in the USA

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[turtlespeed 212]

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Holder of H4 visa is not allowed to work in the US and is considered a nonimmigrant alien. (resident or non-resident doesn't come into the equasion, since they aren't allowed to work)

Au contraire--an H4 visa holder who is here for most of the year is definitely a resident alien for tax purposes. As such they are subject to US taxation on their worldwide income. Such income might include:

--Passive income from investments, which is certainly legal income even though they can't work

--Employment income earned during brief trips back home (or elsewhere outside the USA)--this is subject to US tax since they are a resident alien and taxed on world income

--Employment income illegally earned while in the USA

Thanks - I wasn't even going to go into the investment realm - I guess it is just as relevant since he wants to pick nits about the phraseology.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[skygypsie 2]

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No. I mean they already do. Illegals can't legally work at all.

So, do we enforce existing immigration laws until we can come up with a real, workable solution or do we just ignore the issue until it goes away?

Enforcing existing laws would, in fact, go a long way toward fixing the issue. If illegals knew they wouldn't be able to make a living here, they'd have very little incentive to come.

Businesses that hire illegals should be fined heavily. Businesses that contract out labor to other businesses who knowingly hire illegals (for instance WalMart), also share the blame and should also be fined.

It's the way business works in the US that has caused the problem.

agreed...in a nutshell

[popsjumper 2]

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No. I mean they already do. Illegals can't legally work at all.

So, do we enforce existing immigration laws until we can come up with a real, workable solution or do we just ignore the issue until it goes away?

Enforcing existing laws would, in fact, go a long way toward fixing the issue. If illegals knew they wouldn't be able to make a living here, they'd have very little incentive to come.

Businesses that hire illegals should be fined heavily. Businesses that contract out labor to other businesses who knowingly hire illegals (for instance WalMart), also share the blame and should also be fined.

It's the way business works in the US that has caused the problem.

agreed...in a nutshell

Disagree. Why would YOU want to be held responsible for MY business practices? I damned sure don't want to be held responsible for yours!

Think of the backlash THAT would create!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,174]

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Disagree. Why would YOU want to be held responsible for MY business practices?

If I do business with you willingly (i.e. I had a reasonable choice), it's not unreasonable to include legality of operations (and employees) among the criteria.

Some companies include "no child labor" or "no slave labor," but those aren't against the law in the countries where it's happening. In the US, it's illegal to hire undocumented workers -- shouldn't it be illegal to hire a company known to use undocumented workers? Of course, this means plenty of room for legal wrangling around whether the contracting company should have known, but lawrocket's kids need to go to college, after all...

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,154]

***They don't have a specific list - there are however several thousand hits when the term was used in a search engine***

I went through this hits, they don't provide a definition of non-resident alien. Now we know you don't go to the ministry of labor for that definition and have now effectively established you are a liar and will say anything to prevent from having to admit you were wrong.

[SkyDekker 1,154]

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Thanks - I wasn't even going to go into the investment realm - I guess it is just as relevant since he wants to pick nits about the phraseology.

SivaGanesha is correct and I was wrong on that point. it does establish two other things:

1) resident alien and non-resident alien are terms used for tax purposes; but more importantly:

2) an H4 visa is still not an example of your fourth group!! They cannot work in the US. To refresh your memory: Anybody reasonably intelligent (and not stupid like me) was supposed to know you were talking about people who could legally work in the US. H4 visa is not an example.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Disagree. Why would YOU want to be held responsible for MY business practices?

If I do business with you willingly (i.e. I had a reasonable choice), it's not unreasonable to include legality of operations (and employees) among the criteria.

Some companies include "no child labor" or "no slave labor," but those aren't against the law in the countries where it's happening. In the US, it's illegal to hire undocumented workers -- shouldn't it be illegal to hire a company known to use undocumented workers? Of course, this means plenty of room for legal wrangling around whether the contracting company should have known, but lawrocket's kids need to go to college, after all... Wendy P.

I'm mostly on Andy/Pops's side on this - taken too far, it's unreasonable - or at least extremely impractical - to nail a contractor for the hiring practices of all of its subcontractors. Still, the overall policy concern is valid.

So I'd offer a compromise solution:
- Develop a standard government form (an "I-###" kind of form) for subcontractors to sign and give to contractors that basically says "Under penalty of law, I hereby pledge and affirm that I follow all requirements of law not to employ illegal immigrants."
- The contractor has the right to rely upon that form, without further penalty if the subcontractor does employ an illegal. (This relieves the contractor of being effectively required to constantly investigate and monitor all of its subcontractors. )
- If the subcontractor submits that signed form to a contractor but actually does employ illegal immigrants, that itself is a violation for which the subcontractor is liable.
- The only way, then, that a contractor could potentially be liable for the subcontractor's hiring practice, after a subcontractor has submitted a Form I-###, is if it can be proven by competent evidence that the contractor and subcontractor were in deliberate collusion.

[futuredivot 0]

That's awfully practical.


It'll never work

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[wmw999 2,174]

That leaves too few opportunities for lawsuits.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 0]

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That leaves too few opportunities for lawsuits.

There are always opportunities.

[skygypsie 2]

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No. I mean they already do. Illegals can't legally work at all.

So, do we enforce existing immigration laws until we can come up with a real, workable solution or do we just ignore the issue until it goes away?

Enforcing existing laws would, in fact, go a long way toward fixing the issue. If illegals knew they wouldn't be able to make a living here, they'd have very little incentive to come.

Businesses that hire illegals should be fined heavily. Businesses that contract out labor to other businesses who knowingly hire illegals (for instance WalMart), also share the blame and should also be fined.

It's the way business works in the US that has caused the problem.

agreed...in a nutshell

Disagree. Why would YOU want to be held responsible for MY business practices? I damned sure don't want to be held responsible for yours!

Think of the backlash THAT would create!

You don't think we are all responsible for your business practices as; it is, anyway ?
If your business is a business conglomerate like the one's the Government has given bail outs to, or allows hefty loans to keep afloat, or one that decides to outsource to a foreign country; eliminating jobs, here, or a small business that employs just enough people to get by; only to have to close doors because of too much of the above mentioned, sending the employees into the unemployement lines, for that to run out & the need to seek Government assistance, & then raising my taxes, spending & depleting OUR programs & funds I've already worked for, paid into, & entitled to, & then taking away of the future security of my Son's & their son's future...OR to regulate NOW the current backlash; in every possible scenario, by the continued allowance of illegal's into this country !
In a nutshell: YES !

Keep in mind...GOVERNMENT: " We the People "

to Andy 908: before you give a grammar critique about my 'run on sentences, being so unreadable...I did hold my breath the whole time I was tapping away...then one big scream at the end !

[skygypsie 2]

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That leaves too few opportunities for lawsuits.

Wendy P.

Attorneys are known to lean towards the mentality of what would send work their way...lawsuits