red light cameras

[happythoughts 0]

news

The primary rule of statistics - when the statistics support
your position, they are facts. When they do not, further study is required because there is no causative relationship.

Accident figures go down at places with new red light cameras? Obviously, they are making the area safer.
Figures go up? Hmm... further study is required to find an alternate reason.

In the interim, your "democratic" govt will make millions of dollars. You can sue them, you can lobby, or
protest. However, a camera is a cash-cow. Your vote/option/protest do not count.

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Mixed results from Austin's red light traffic cameras
By: News 8 Austin Staff

Mixed results from Austin's red light traffic cameras
Austin public safety commissioners say there have been mixed results at intersections where red light traffic cameras were installed.

At seven of those intersections, the number of accidents has dropped. But at two intersections, authorities have actually seen a significant increase in crashes.

The intersection of MLK and I-35 has seen a 33 percent jump in the last year. The intersection of 15th Street and I-35 has had a 64 percent increase in crashes in nearly two years.

Safety leaders are looking at possible causes for the increases at those intersections, but they do say both are high traffic areas near the interstate.

[AggieDave 6]

In Texas if a police officer writes you a citation for disregarding a red light, you have the opportunity to contest the citation in court with a jury trial. If you receive a "citation" from a red light camera, you are not afforded this opportunity. This is due to the violations being considered a civil infraction because the offense was not observed by a licensed peace officers. If you simply ignore the civil "citation" then a warrant for your arrest isn't issued, they simply send your "citation" to collections and ding your credit.

Red light cameras do nothing but violate your rights and prevent you from exercising your right to a trial of your peers.

In every jurisdiction in Texas that the RLCs have been installed, a significant increase in rear in collisions has occurred near the intersection, but the way that accident reports are completed and logged those were not "in the intersection." For an accident to be counted as "in the intersection" the accident has to occur past the designated stop point of the intersection. So the first vehicle in line at the light stops and the vehicle behind it fails to control speed and strikes the first vehicle. That accident did not occur in the intersection, it occurred 10ft in front of the intersection. This is used in the numbers manipulation game to keep citizens from realizing the increased danger in the name of revenue.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydiverbob 0]

We have red light cameras on several major intersections here in Medford. Statistically they insist that it has reduced the accidents in these intersections. The worst thing they have is mobile camera vans that are used in areas for speed control. I got a letter in the mail 2 years ago with a ticket and 4 very clear pictures of my car and me driving it, hard to dispute.

Who Dares Wins

[CanuckInUSA 0]

These red light cameras are nothing more that revenue generators. If the authorities were serious about cracking down on people at intersections, they would be there to catch the people in the act.

But let's also be smart drivers out there. Don't run red/yellow lights and on the flip side ... look both ways at the intersection before you enter it. Just because you have a green light doesn't mean it is safe to enter it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[masterrig 1]

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These red light cameras are nothing more that revenue generators. If the authorities were serious about cracking down on people at intersections, they would be there to catch the people in the act.

But let's also be smart drivers out there. Don't run red/yellow lights and on the flip side ... look both ways at the intersection before you enter it. Just because you have a green light doesn't mean it is safe to enter it.

They also relieve police officers from traffic detail to catch 'real bad-guys'.


Chuck

[AggieDave 6]

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These red light cameras are nothing more that revenue generators. If the authorities were serious about cracking down on people at intersections, they would be there to catch the people in the act.

But let's also be smart drivers out there. Don't run red/yellow lights and on the flip side ... look both ways at the intersection before you enter it. Just because you have a green light doesn't mean it is safe to enter it.

They also relieve police officers from traffic detail to catch 'real bad-guys'.


Chuck

Timothy McVey was caught by an Oklahoma Trooper conducting a "routine" traffic stop. In my experience, the "real bad-guys" drive and many times are in violation of various Transportation Code statutes.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[masterrig 1]

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These red light cameras are nothing more that revenue generators. If the authorities were serious about cracking down on people at intersections, they would be there to catch the people in the act.

But let's also be smart drivers out there. Don't run red/yellow lights and on the flip side ... look both ways at the intersection before you enter it. Just because you have a green light doesn't mean it is safe to enter it.

They also relieve police officers from traffic detail to catch 'real bad-guys'.


Chuck

Timothy McVey was caught by an Oklahoma Trooper conducting a "routine" traffic stop. In my experience, the "real bad-guys" drive and many times are in violation of various Transportation Code statutes.

I was referring to a common response drivers make when stopped for a traffic violation. You bet! Many 'bad guys' are apprehended through traffic stops.


Chuck

[kallend 1,644]

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In Texas if a police officer writes you a citation for disregarding a red light, you have the opportunity to contest the citation in court with a jury trial. If you receive a "citation" from a red light camera, you are not afforded this opportunity. This is due to the violations being considered a civil infraction because the offense was not observed by a licensed peace officers. If you simply ignore the civil "citation" then a warrant for your arrest isn't issued, they simply send your "citation" to collections and ding your credit.

Red light cameras do nothing but violate your rights and prevent you from exercising your right to a trial of your peers.

In every jurisdiction in Texas that the RLCs have been installed, a significant increase in rear in collisions has occurred near the intersection, but the way that accident reports are completed and logged those were not "in the intersection." For an accident to be counted as "in the intersection" the accident has to occur past the designated stop point of the intersection. So the first vehicle in line at the light stops and the vehicle behind it fails to control speed and strikes the first vehicle. That accident did not occur in the intersection, it occurred 10ft in front of the intersection. This is used in the numbers manipulation game to keep citizens from realizing the increased danger in the name of revenue.

According to USDoT, very similar changes in accident profiles have been observed when traffic lights are installed at previously uncontrolled intersections.

I was recently in Hawaii where they have been installing yield-at-entry roundabouts. A far superior solution, where there is a real reduction in accidents and decrease in congestion.

A 2001 Institute study of 23 intersections in the United States reported that converting intersections from traffic signals or stop signs to roundabouts reduced injury crashes by 80 percent and all crashes by 40 percent.1 Similar results were reported by Eisenman et al.: a 75 percent decrease in injury crashes and a 37 percent decrease in total crashes at 35 intersections that were converted from traffic signals to roundabouts.2 A study of 17 higher speed rural intersections (40 mph and higher speed limits) found that the average injury crash rate per million entering vehicles was reduced by 84 percent and fatal crashes were eliminated when the intersections were converted to roundabouts.3 Studies of intersections in Europe and Australia that were converted to roundabouts have reported 41-61 percent reductions in injury crashes and 45-75 percent reductions in severe injury crashes.4

See also:


azdot.gov/ccpartnerships/roundabouts/users_guide.asp
www.alaskaroundabouts.com/history.html
www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/95fall/p95au41.cfm

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Profman 0]

I got nailed by one in Ohio. Total BS if you ask me. These systems have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with $$$$. That is is. It would be just as effective to increase the length of the yellow light by 1-2 seconds. If the motivation is to reduce accidents, put in turn-a-bouts.

The dangers of life are infinite, and among them is safety.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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In every jurisdiction in Texas that the RLCs have been installed, a significant increase in rear in collisions has occurred near the intersection...

Do you have any stats on the rate of accidents with injuries/fatalities vs fender-benders at intersections with red-light cameras? Where I live, cameras were installed at two major intersections with a high frequency of red light running. The overall accident rate increased slightly, but all the increase was due to fender benders (which don't have to be in the intersection to be counted). On the other hand, accidents with fatalities or injuries requiring hospitalization decreased about 75%. Even the fender benders decreased once people learned to react to the caution light by braking instead of hitting the gas, realizing they couldn't make the light, then hitting the brakes with inadequate stopping distance.

I realize as a police officer you'd likely be in favor of hiring more police instead of using cameras, but to monitor those two intersections with the same coverage as the cameras would require hiring and equipping 12 officers (2 intersections, each requiring 3 8-hour shifts/day, with 2 officers/shift so the intersection isn't left unmonitored while 1 officer is writing a ticket). Hiring and equipping 12 officers (including 12 patrol cars) would cost around $1,000,000, which is just not going to happen in today's economic climate.

I believe here you can choose to contest a ticket based on a red light camera. However you would have to prove the camera was defective in a way that somehow resulted in a picture of your car entering the intersection when the light is red. I don't know how that would be possible, but you can try.

No-one has a "right" to endanger others by running red lights. It's all well and good to say you shouldn't enter the intersection unless you can be sure crossing traffic is stopped, but at both intersections a transport truck in the left turn lane is enough to obscure your view to the left, and then you can't see without pulling forward, which puts you in position to be hit.

Don

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[mpohl 1]

Well, that's just because Americans can't drive shit to begin with. And that includes our Peace Officers forever glued to their cell phones while discharging their authority.

Suffice it to say that a Red Light Camera gets all of the pertinent data right...all the time, every time. Can't say that about a Tx trooper.

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[...]

In every jurisdiction in Texas that the RLCs have been installed, a significant increase in rear in collisions has occurred near the intersection, [...]

[AggieDave 6]

RLCs are installed to issue citations to red light runners who are typically trying to beat a yellow light. Serious injury collisions typically occur later in the traffic cycle than that.

As for hard numbers, I used to have them laying around, but lost them in a computer crash last year, so you're on your own.

As for RLC vs. hiring more officers, honestly, that's not the argument that I'm pursuing. What my argument is about is the blatant violation of my civil right to have a trial with a jury of my peers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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RLCs are installed to issue citations to red light runners who are typically trying to beat a yellow light. Serious injury collisions typically occur later in the traffic cycle than that.

I'm sure you're right about that. Around here, the serious accidents mainly happen late at night, when there isn't much traffic and people assume the intersection will be empty so it's OK to run the red, except sometimes it isn't. Also, although you shouldn't enter the intersection for a left turn unless you can complete the turn, if you do wait for a break in traffic sufficient to cross 4 lanes before reaching the nearest lane to turn on to, you'll never get a chance to turn. So people pull into the intersection, stop, and wait for a break in traffic or for the amber light to finish the turn. That puts them in position to get nailed by someone pushing the red. Although both drivers share some of the fault, the speed of the car trying to beat the light makes those collisions very severe.

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As for RLC vs. hiring more officers, honestly, that's not the argument that I'm pursuing.

Fair enough. But, do you see an alternative, other than not enforcing the red light, or pulling existing officers off of other activities such as patrolling high crime neighborhoods?

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What my argument is about is the blatant violation of my civil right to have a trial with a jury of my peers.

I agree that's a problem, but it seems to me to be an administrative one. There should be a mechanism to contest the ticket (as there is here). You could dispute maintainance/accuracy of the camera. But surely a photo is better evidence than the say-so of a police officer? Are you confident that you could simultaneously watch a moving vehicle and the traffic light, and be absolutely sure the light was red when the car entered the intersection? If you were investigating a convenience store robbery, would you rather have a high resolution image of the suspect from a security camera, or a statement from an eye witness who was looking through the store window from the other side of the street, 100 feet away?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[AggieDave 6]

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Fair enough. But, do you see an alternative, other than not enforcing the red light, or pulling existing officers off of other activities such as patrolling high crime neighborhoods?

Intersections with high levels of accidents are many times heavily patrolled anyways. All in all I don't think you have a firm grasp on the division of labor with in a police department. Unfortunately a very large part of the public really doesn't have an firm grasp either. Could I recommend checking with your local department to see if they offer a citizens police academy?

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I agree that's a problem, but it seems to me to be an administrative one.

A violation of your civil rights is not an administrative problem. It is a serious issue that should be taken as such! If an officer violates someone's civil rights, that officer is investigated by a higher agency and at times, the FBI. That officer faces termination, jail time and civil suits. A municipality is apparently able to violate someone's civil rights purely for the sake of profits and no one seems to bat an eye!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Radioahole 0]

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RLCs are installed to issue citations to red light runners who are typically trying to beat a yellow light. Serious injury collisions typically occur later in the traffic cycle than that.

As for hard numbers, I used to have them laying around, but lost them in a computer crash last year, so you're on your own.

As for RLC vs. hiring more officers, honestly, that's not the argument that I'm pursuing. What my argument is about is the blatant violation of my civil right to have a trial with a jury of my peers.

I think you r point is the most accurate. When these types of "enforcement" are pursued we lose OUR ability to challenge OUR accuser. It's more guilty before innocent due to circumstantial evidence. The camera doesn't show if the driver behind you was following too close for you to make a safe stop and they stopped at the crosswalk line. You still get the fine. That didnt happen to me but I saw a similar incident happen today. The first car got shot by the cam and the trailing car MIGHT get a ticket. Where they were the ones in the wrong by tailgating.

[kallend 1,644]

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As for RLC vs. hiring more officers, honestly, that's not the argument that I'm pursuing.

Fair enough. But, do you see an alternative, other than not enforcing the red light, or pulling existing officers off of other activities such as patrolling high crime neighborhoods?


Don

Traffic lights are NOT the optimal solution to intersection safety or to intersection capacity. Putting RLCs there is not a fix when the lights themselves ARE a big part of the problem. A small number of states, much of Europe, and Australia have already realized this.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[d_squared431 0]

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RLCs are installed to issue citations to red light runners who are typically trying to beat a yellow light. Serious injury collisions typically occur later in the traffic cycle than that.

As for hard numbers, I used to have them laying around, but lost them in a computer crash last year, so you're on your own.

As for RLC vs. hiring more officers, honestly, that's not the argument that I'm pursuing. What my argument is about is the blatant violation of my civil right to have a trial with a jury of my peers.

I think you r point is the most accurate. When these types of "enforcement" are pursued we lose OUR ability to challenge OUR accuser. It's more guilty before innocent due to circumstantial evidence. The camera doesn't show if the driver behind you was following too close for you to make a safe stop and they stopped at the crosswalk line. You still get the fine. That didnt happen to me but I saw a similar incident happen today. The first car got shot by the cam and the trailing car MIGHT get a ticket. Where they were the ones in the wrong by tailgating.

There was a recent ruling that took place in Orlando saying it was unconstitutional to collect money for citations with cameras prior to a law that was just passed July 1,2010. 50,000 citations might have to be refunded costing over 4 million dollars in refunds.
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=141248&catid=250
I assume that each City has to have a specific law in place for the lights to be considered valid for citations to be legally issued.

I see so many people speed way up to make a yellow light or slam on their breaks and slide past the line to stop at the red lights. This is a daily occurrence here in Florida.

TPM Sister#130ONTIG#1
I love vodka.I love vodka cause it rhymes with Tuaca~LisaH
You having a clean thought is like billyvance having a clean post.iluvtofly

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I agree that traffic circles can work better, when people know how to use them. But, how well do they work at intersections with 3-4 lanes in each direction? Everybody has to be in the outer lane to turn out of the circle, if you enter from the left-most lane don't you end up orbiting around until you can change lanes to the outermost lane? Also doesn't reconfiguring the intersection require appropriating the properties on the corners, which would be prohibitively expensive to do for even a few intersections in most communities?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[turtlespeed 212]

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I see so many people speed way up to make a yellow light or slam on their breaks and slide past the line to stop at the red lights. This is a daily occurrence here in Florida.

That's because you people can't fricken drive!

Well, that . . . and Snow Birds
That's also why your insurance is so high.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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A violation of your civil rights is not an administrative problem. It is a serious issue that should be taken as such!

No argument from me on that point. But, the camera is an inanimate object that simply records an image. It can't violate your rights, any more than a gun can shoot you all on its own. If the municipality issues tickets that must be paid, without an opportunity to contest, then I agree your rights have been violated. If you have an opportunity to contest the ticket, then I can't see how having a picture taken is a violation of your rights. The lack of an opportunity to contest the ticket is an administrative decision made by the municipality, not by the camera.

It seems to me that, if red light cameras are inherently a violation of your rights, then so are security cameras in gas stations, stores, etc. I can think of a couple of instances where convenience store clerks were murdered, and the best evidence against the murderers (who were tried and convicted) was video from security cameras. Should those killers be released, because no law enforcement officer was on the scene to witness the killing?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[AggieDave 6]

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If the municipality issues tickets that must be paid...I can't see how having a picture taken is a violation of your rights. The lack of an opportunity to contest the ticket is an administrative decision made by the municipality...

The citations are typically issued for the municipality by the RLC company! The opportunity to contest the citation is not by a jury of your peers as afforded by The Constitution, it is a civil process to verify that the video camera system was functioning at the time by a single person. You can not appeal the court's actions to a higher criminal court, as you can with an actual citation.

My point isn't the picture being taken or the presence of a camera, but the manner in which it is applied.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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[GeorgiaDon 340]

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The citations are typically issued for the municipality by the RLC company! The opportunity to contest the citation is not by a jury of your peers as afforded by The Constitution, it is a civil process to verify that the video camera system was functioning at the time by a single person. You can not appeal the court's actions to a higher criminal court, as you can with an actual citation.

In that case I agree there is a problem. If municipalities want to use RLCs to discourage red light running, they have to respect your rights under Texas law.

Out of curiosity, can you also request a jury trial to contest parking tickets, or tickets for burnt out tail-lights etc?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[angrypeppers 1]

Revenue generating for the municipality, AND the vendor. Here's an older snippet from Car And Driver's Patrick Bedard...the info may be a bit dated:

"In effect, Mesa had shortened its yellows to raise the take. It helped, but not enough. So the city and Lockheed set to renegotiating the contract. Instead of pocketing $48.50 for each paid violation, Lockheed would reap $73 for the first 900 each month, $65 for the next 300, then it was back to the original rate. The city also agreed to ease Lockheed's labor in writing out complaints, but if the vendor's costs didn't drop enough, the city promised to renegotiate again. Talk about a sweetheart deal!"


Red-Light Cameras and the Secret Gotcha!

Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.

[shropshire 0]

What's so hard about using roundabouts properly?

But you're right, they do take up more room, so it's not always possible to reconfigure all road junctions.. especially in urban areas.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[AggieDave 6]

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Out of curiosity, can you also request a jury trial to contest parking tickets, or tickets for burnt out tail-lights etc?

Don

Yes. You can also appeal the lower courts decision to a county court.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."