Riots erupt in Athens

[Gawain 0]

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The unhappy reality is that this is one result of unsustainable social programs.

No, not because of unsustainable social programs. You are politizing the issue. It's because as a nation they spent significantly more than they earned.

What do you think they are spending that money on? In some sectors over there, the retirement age is 50, with a pension. That is subsidized by the government (social program)

[replyl]Same thing the US (and many other nations) has been doing for more than 40 years. Unless drastic changes are made (cut spending and raise taxes) you are looking at your own future.

(minus the old buildings, you haven't been around long enough for that one lol)

[airdvr 197]

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Who do you think all the money came from and who do you think they owe it to?

The whole downfall can be traced back to someone returning a used tent to the Athens WalMart and getting a full refund.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Gawain 0]

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Who do you think all the money came from and who do you think they owe it to?

The whole downfall can be traced back to someone returning a used tent to the Athens WalMart and getting a full refund.

LMAO!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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What do you think they are spending that money on?

Oh, I know that for the most part it is on social programs in Greece. Interestingly enough (but really a side point) Greece also spends more on their military than most other European Nations. Nice parallell.....

Doesn't change the basic principle though. If you continuously spend more than you make, you will end up in trouble. What yu spend the money on is for the largest part immaterial.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Doesn't change the basic principle though. If you continuously spend more than you make, you will end up in trouble. What yu spend the money on is for the largest part immaterial.

It's highly material. You can stop military spending. But a pension commitment continues for decades after you alter it.

[billvon 2,400]

>This is not capitalism as there would not be groups exempt from taxes

?? Many groups in capitalist societies are exempt from taxes. Here in the US it is religious groups. Back before the French Revolution it was the Church and the nobles; the poor bore the brunt of taxation. After the second Revolution taxes were borne more by the upper class; part of the Declaration of the Rights of Man was:

"The amount of taxes which a person is called upon to pay shall be based on the amount of wealth that he possesses."

Thus, the poorest no longer paid (having nothing) and the rich paid a LOT.

>just as the inequality here is actual, not perceived.

All inequality outside of scientific research is perceived.

>Had they charged taxes equally to all (percentage or some other
>method), they may have been able to pay off their debts, help their
>soldiers, and avoided a revolution.

Perhaps. What they ended up doing (and what, in the end, worked) was to tax the rich heavily and tax the poor minimally.

[billvon 2,400]

>What yu spend the money on is for the largest part immaterial.

Not at all. Spending money on a highway system may well result in more shipping/commerce (and thus more business taxes) more toll income, more gasoline tax income etc. OTOH, spending money on an optional war does not provide such a return. So what you spend money on matters a _lot._

[Bolas 5]

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?? Many groups in capitalist societies are exempt from taxes. Here in the US it is religious groups.

Which I also disagree with. There's no reason religious institutions unless they qualify themselves as strictly charities should not have to pay taxes.

While it's been said the power to tax is the power to destroy I don't think standard corporate taxes would destroy Catholicism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, Judiasm, etc. in America. Fringe religions would still have to file, but unless they made over a certain portion and were not declared a charity, they'd not have to pay.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,400]

>Fringe religions would still have to file, but unless they made over a
>certain portion and were not declared a charity, they'd not have to pay.

Sounds like there would suddenly be a LOT of tiny fringe religions that sound just like Catholicism, but would hold their masses on Monday, not Sunday. Call them Mondetarians.

[Gawain 0]

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What do you think they are spending that money on?

Oh, I know that for the most part it is on social programs in Greece. Interestingly enough (but really a side point) Greece also spends more on their military than most other European Nations. Nice parallell.....

Um...no...Greece trails Netherlands, Spain, Turkey, Italy, Germany, UK, France, Poland...as a percentage of GDP, it's about 4.5%, which is ahead of many other EU percentages. In terms of absolute Euros spent, they aren't even in the top 20...

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Doesn't change the basic principle though. If you continuously spend more than you make, you will end up in trouble. What yu spend the money on is for the largest part immaterial.

Absolutely is material. Finite fiscal budgets can be adjusted (military, infrastructure), social programs are perpetual (like pensions, health care)...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Bolas 5]

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>Fringe religions would still have to file, but unless they made over a
>certain portion and were not declared a charity, they'd not have to pay.

Sounds like there would suddenly be a LOT of tiny fringe religions that sound just like Catholicism, but would hold their masses on Monday, not Sunday. Call them Mondetarians.

You think religious leaders would lie?



If they still were associated with the bishop and the pope, they'd still be considered Catholic.

Besides, if a religious institution was treated like a corporation or company and actually offset its income with charitable contributions, even though it's not necessarilly tax income it still helps the community.

This just gives them greater incentive to do so. However if they choose to give the clergy a bonus or raise (taxed) or buy new property (taxed), a portion of that money would be collected.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,400]

>If they still were associated with the bishop and the pope, they'd still
>be considered Catholic.

Oh, they'd read that tax code VERY carefully and distance themselves just enough. Here in the US money is the great motivator; churches would have a huge incentive to keep all their money.

If you could change your reported religious affiliation to avoid paying any income tax - would you?

[Bolas 5]

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How did the banks cause this one?

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Greece seems to be like so many American cities and states - giving overly generous benefits and pensions to their employees with a growth rate well beyond the growth in tax base.

You obviouly don't know how a central banking system works. There is much propognda in place to make sure you don't. It is a complex system here is a fun easy explanation.
You can take to information and do some research yourself.

Who do you think all the money came from and who do you think they owe it to?

I watched that video. While the central bank in that video could trap someone/something in a credit/interest cycle, the solution is simple logic: don't borrow more than you can pay back.
Ex: If you need $50 borrow $55 or $60 so you can make that first loan payment (if defferring is not an option) then continue to use a portion of your income to pay off the rest.

Or just wait until it can be afforded without loans.

The same tenants of responsible credit management apply to all.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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Um...no...Greece trails Netherlands, Spain, Turkey, Italy, Germany, UK, France, Poland...as a percentage of GDP, it's about 4.5%, which is ahead of many other EU percentages.

Your own CIA says you are wrong, but they have been known to get their facts wrong. (4.3%GDP, which places them 2nd on the list of European Countries after Macedonia, which is who Greece has tensions with).

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Absolutely is material. Finite fiscal budgets can be adjusted (military, infrastructure), social programs are perpetual (like pensions, health care)...

Social programs can be adjusted too, just harder to do. That's what they are fighting about in Greece.

Also, I understand that investments like Billvon brought up are better investments/spending, specially if they bring future income.

However, if in that future other spending has increased beyond that incremental income, you are back in the same position.

Hence, my statement that in the grand scheme it doesn't matter what you spend the money on. If you continually spend more than you make, you get in trouble.

[Gawain 0]

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Um...no...Greece trails Netherlands, Spain, Turkey, Italy, Germany, UK, France, Poland...as a percentage of GDP, it's about 4.5%, which is ahead of many other EU percentages.

Your own CIA says you are wrong, but they have been known to get their facts wrong. (4.3%GDP, which places them 2nd on the list of European Countries after Macedonia, which is who Greece has tensions with).

Nice edit of my post. As a percent of GDP, they are ahead of most of Europe. In terms of dollars spent, they aren't.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html

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Hence, my statement that in the grand scheme it doesn't matter what you spend the money on. If you continually spend more than you make, you get in trouble.

Agreed.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Bolas 5]

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>If they still were associated with the bishop and the pope, they'd still
>be considered Catholic.

Oh, they'd read that tax code VERY carefully and distance themselves just enough. Here in the US money is the great motivator; churches would have a huge incentive to keep all their money.

If you could change your reported religious affiliation to avoid paying any income tax - would you?

If it was not true, no. Besides being immoral, it would also be illegal. I don't want to give the IRS reason to come after me and if they did decide to audit me, I want it to come back clean or just an hnest mistake I may have made. At the same time I use tax software to mitigate that as well.
I used to think religious institutions would hold themselves to higher standards than the rest of society, but know better now.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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Nice edit of my post. As a percent of GDP, they are ahead of most of Europe. In terms of dollars spent, they aren't.

understood, I read wrong. No malicious intent. Do believe % of GDP is a more important indicator right now, since we are speaking of their total balance sheet.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Greece seems to be like so many American cities and states - giving overly generous benefits and pensions to their employees with a growth rate well beyond the growth in tax base.

In many cases American cities and states pay crap wages, and the only thing that makes it tolerable to work for them is the "overly generous benefits" (such as health insurance) and pensions. Most of the city workers I know need to work second and sometimes third jobs to make ends meet. Retroactively cutting promised pensions, after the employees have put in the time, is no different than retroactively declaring "we think we paid you too much" and going into the employee's bank account and taking out the money. How much of a "happy camper" would you be if your clients/employers could decide, years down the road, they paid you too much and take back from you whatever they felt was "fair", after you have done the work you were contracted to do? Falling revenues may necessitate paying less than contracted for on pensions, but make no mistake, it is stealing from the employee, plain and simple. Of course, it is easy to do, as there is nothing the employee can do about it once they have done the work and are retired. I, for example, could not go back and "un-teach" all the students I have taught should the state decide to renege on their side of the contract.

I think politicians get us into these revenue messes in large part because the public (certainly the American and Canadian public, and I assume it's true elsewhere) expects a certain level of service, and yet has been conditioned to believe they don't have to pay for it (or not pay very much). To get elected, politicians are compelled to promise to maintain or even increase services, while holding the line on or (more often these days) cutting taxes. It doesn't help that the political horizon only extends to the next election, so budgetary planning that's bound to collapse 10 or 20 years down the road will likely be somebody else's problem. So, it becomes prudent (for the politician) to push the problem into the future by maintaining services by offering a low wage now in exchange for a decent pension later.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Skyrad 0]

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The unhappy reality is that this is one result of unsustainable social programs. This could be only the beginning. Who's next? Spain? Portugal? What happens if too big to fail becomes, too big to save?

Ireland

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Bolas 5]

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Greece seems to be like so many American cities and states - giving overly generous benefits and pensions to their employees with a growth rate well beyond the growth in tax base.

In many cases American cities and states pay crap wages, and the only thing that makes it tolerable to work for them is the "overly generous benefits" (such as health insurance) and pensions. Most of the city workers I know need to work second and sometimes third jobs to make ends meet. Retroactively cutting promised pensions, after the employees have put in the time, is no different than retroactively declaring "we think we paid you too much" and going into the employee's bank account and taking out the money. How much of a "happy camper" would you be if your clients/employers could decide, years down the road, they paid you too much and take back from you whatever they felt was "fair", after you have done the work you were contracted to do? Falling revenues may necessitate paying less than contracted for on pensions, but make no mistake, it is stealing from the employee, plain and simple. Of course, it is easy to do, as there is nothing the employee can do about it once they have done the work and are retired. I, for example, could not go back and "un-teach" all the students I have taught should the state decide to renege on their side of the contract.

I think politicians get us into these revenue messes in large part because the public (certainly the American and Canadian public, and I assume it's true elsewhere) expects a certain level of service, and yet has been conditioned to believe they don't have to pay for it (or not pay very much). To get elected, politicians are compelled to promise to maintain or even increase services, while holding the line on or (more often these days) cutting taxes. It doesn't help that the political horizon only extends to the next election, so budgetary planning that's bound to collapse 10 or 20 years down the road will likely be somebody else's problem. So, it becomes prudent (for the politician) to push the problem into the future by maintaining services by offering a low wage now in exchange for a decent pension later.

Don

That same short term thinking is why Chrysler, GM, and the airlines got into so much trouble. Too many benefits deals made in the good years to keep costs low.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kelpdiver 2]

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In many cases American cities and states pay crap wages, and the only thing that makes it tolerable to work for them is the "overly generous benefits" (such as health insurance) and pensions. Most of the city workers I know need to work second and sometimes third jobs to make ends meet.

1 in 3 employees for the city of San Francisco earned over 100k last year. And believe me, most of these aren't skilled jobs. The bus drivers have a charter agreement that guarantees them the second highest salary in the nation - that sort of deal alone should tell you how fucked up it is. And that ignores their union agreements that make it impossible to fire the guys who keep crashing into civilians, or the number of days they've been permitted not show up (sick? if you say so!) without notice, but still be paid.

Outside of government jobs, few of us can expect to see defined benefit pension plans, or covered medical care in retirement. Greece's allowance for numerous people to retire at 50 and then collect benefits for the rest of their lives is not a sustainable concept. It makes Social Security, which is also unsustainable, seem much saner in contrast. Big different between 50 and 67.

[lawrocket 3]

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1 in 3 employees for the city of San Francisco earned over 100k last year. And believe me, most of these aren't skilled jobs. The bus drivers have a charter agreement that guarantees them the second highest salary in the nation - that sort of deal alone should tell you how fucked up it is. And that ignores their union agreements that make it impossible to fire the guys who keep crashing into civilians, or the number of days they've been permitted not show up (sick? if you say so!) without notice, but still be paid.

Union power has much to do with this. Three years ago, the president of the SF Board of Supervisors, in an effort to increase efficiency and rein in costs proposed increasing the number of employees who can be terminated for incompetency each year from 1.5% to 10%. And he faced the consequences of proposing such a horrible thing!


The poor guy was left deaing with a problem created by predecessors who by their nature, won't be around when the time comes to really pay these things off. Social Security? Medicare? Pensions? Etc. Affordable at the beginning but gradually costs more and more. When you've got 90% of the population sustaining 10% it is usually sustainable. When you approach 60% supporting 40%, it becomes more difficult.

They were doable then but have long-term cost increases. When pensions are negotiated, they can be funded by savings. But they are always funded by present employees, as well. The problem is identified but passed off to the future.

The costs are low in the beginning. The people that put it into place are glad and get reelected. Forty or fifty years later, when the shit hits the fan, they aren't around to deal with it.

Politics is an excellent way of passing the buck to the future. We see it in Greece where the tipping point is reached.

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Greece's allowance for numerous people to retire at 50

- try 40! Twenty years to collect pensions. Why work and get paid when you can retire and get paid. These payments are made by everyone else.

So Greece is collapsing. Yeah. Of course. This has been something that folks have seen coming fora a long time. The political will to do something about it isn't there because if they do the right thing they get blamed for riots, etc.

Greece has a number of issues with it. It's already got high taxes - but revenues are low because of rampant tax evasion. Part of the problem is the Euro itself - all EU countries using the same currency but with different rules.

Most importantly - living beyond your means will evenutally catch up.

Spain and Portugal are in real trouble. Italy - it, too, faces possible mess. So does Ireland.

This could be most interesting and unfortunate.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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1 in 3 employees for the city of San Francisco earned over 100k last year.

Well that seems like a heck of a lot for a bus driver. Here in Georgia (a "right-to-work" state) a significant proportion of city and state workers actually qualify for food stamps (or would if their public service job was their only income). Here in Athens (GA, not Greece) the only city employees to make over $100,000 are the city manager, attorneys, and judges.

But the part of the story you are leaving out is what it costs to live. I have a 5 bedroom 3 bath house on a 3/4 acre lot, 15 minutes from my work. That house is appraised at just over $200,000. On the other hand, about 10 years ago I was talking to a chemistry professor from Berkley who had just won a MacArthur fellowship (often called the "genius award"). When I asked what she was going to do with the award, she said she might (might!) now have enough of a down payment to be able to afford to buy her own house. The award was around $400,000 at the time. My point is that while $100,000 is a lot of money for a bus driver, if that salary only buys you a one bedroom apartment and Raman noodles four times a week you will not be able to attract or retain decent employees. How much of SF's current budget woes can be traced to the ridiculous prices in that area, driven by the dot-com bubble? Is it excessively greedy of people who are working full time to expect to be able to live in a house and send their kids to college, or are we gravitating towards a world where such "luxuries" are reserved for those of "CEO grade" only?

My point being, I suspect there is more to the story than just stupid politicians and greedy unions.

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Greece's allowance for numerous people to retire at 50 and then collect benefits for the rest of their lives is not a sustainable concept. It makes Social Security, which is also unsustainable, seem much saner in contrast. Big different between 50 and 67.

Agreed, I don't see how any society can hope to sustain a retirement age of 50. When social security was implemented, the average life expectancy was less than the retirement age. Now people live decades drawing on the system. Retirement at 50 should be (IMHO) one of those "luxuries" that should be earned by individuals who make suitable provisions to be able to afford it.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[lawrocket 3]

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My point is that while $100,000 is a lot of money for a bus driver, if that salary only buys you a one bedroom apartment and Raman noodles four times a week you will not be able to attract or retain decent employees.

The problem is that often you cannot GET RID OF lousy employees. Everything costs so much there because the entire system is built on inefficiency. It's engineered into it because the powerbrokers get their cut. You can only terminate 1.5% of BART employees PER YEAR for incompetence.

It's a high cost of living place because it's a high wage place.

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How much of SF's current budget woes can be traced to the ridiculous prices in that area, driven by the dot-com bubble?

The County gets its money from property taxes. They are doing okay.

Nothing in changing in San Francisco because it is a place where there are the very wealthy and the very poor. It's also older. The young middle class are out. Why does a retired wealthy person have any investment in the future? And the poor? They go there BECAUSE of the services.

It's pretty much an example of what governments do. They steal money from things like maintenance of the water system to fund pet projects and then require a multi-billion dollar bond to repair it.

There's no responsibility or accountability. The problems get pushed off to the future.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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My point being, I suspect there is more to the story than just stupid politicians and greedy unions.

Not as much as one would hope.

No doubt the costs of living are high in the Bay Area, and you wouldn't compare salaries here to salaries in most of the country. For much of the south, 50% of salary is equivalent. However, you can compare city salaries to non city salaries, and examine the rate of growth over the past decade or two. And when you do that, you see a clear picture of bad government and an impending collapse.