Polish President, Army Chief, other Leadership Die in Plane Crash

[Gawain 0]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264964/BREAKING-NEWS-Plane-carrying-Polish-president-crashes-Russia.html

A truly sad day for Poland, one of America's strongest allies in Eastern Europe.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[airdvr 198]

I just finished reading about that. Something doesn't quite make sense about how they're saying this happened. Of course, it's a bit too early to buy into the pilots ignoring ATC and just flying into the ground.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[CanuckInUSA 0]

There has been a lot of cool aid being consumed this morning in my media news sources north of the border. But chances are likely that this was merely an IFR landing gone bad. What is really messed up is why were so many high ranking officials traveling together?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kelpdiver 2]

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I just finished reading about that. Something doesn't quite make sense about how they're saying this happened. Of course, it's a bit too early to buy into the pilots ignoring ATC and just flying into the ground.

Planes crash. When it's a prominent figure that dies (or commits suicide), it's natural to wonder if there was something more behind it.

[airdvr 198]

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I just finished reading about that. Something doesn't quite make sense about how they're saying this happened. Of course, it's a bit too early to buy into the pilots ignoring ATC and just flying into the ground.

Planes crash. When it's a prominent figure that dies (or commits suicide), it's natural to wonder if there was something more behind it.

Not about who is on it. This would be a strange explanation regardless.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[1969912 0]

Yes, a sad event.

What's surprising to me is that they had so many important government people on the same plane. Isn't it SOP to distribute a group like that onto several planes?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[quade 3]

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I just finished reading about that. Something doesn't quite make sense about how they're saying this happened. Of course, it's a bit too early to buy into the pilots ignoring ATC and just flying into the ground.

There isn't enough information in the news I've been able to see yet that suggests anything other than an IFR landing gone wrong. The questions I would like to have answered are how bad the conditions actually were (RVR, ect.) and what the fuel status of the aircraft was.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Yes, a sad event.

What's surprising to me is that they had so many important government people on the same plane. Isn't it SOP to distribute a group like that onto several planes?

In the USA, sure. But most smaller countries, especially those without the resources, have little choice but to put everyone on the same aircraft.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[airdvr 198]

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Air Force Gen. Alexander Alyoshin confirmed that the pilot disregarded instructions to fly to another airfield.

"At a distance of 1.5 kilometers [0.9 miles] the air traffic control group discovered the crew had accelerated its downward descent and begun descending beneath its glide path," Alyoshin told Russian news agencies.

"The head of the group ordered the crew to return to horizontal flight, and when the crew did not fulfill the instruction, ordered them several times to land at another airport," Alyoshin said.

"Nonetheless the crew continued to descend. Unfortunately this ended tragically."

He added that the pilot makes the final decision about whether to land.

This was on Fox. That is what I was referrring to. Strange.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[quade 3]

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In the USA, sure. But most smaller countries, especially those without the resources, have little choice but to put everyone on the same aircraft.

And in the US the President flies on one of the most sophisticated airplanes in existence. While I'm certain this was a fairly well kept Tu-154, I wonder exactly what the level of sophistication in its flight control system was. For instance, even a stock 747 can make a completely automated zero-zero ILS landing. The Tu-154 can make landing on unimproved surfaces, but I don't know what its capabilities are for landings in severely reduced visibility.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gawain 0]

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In the USA, sure. But most smaller countries, especially those without the resources, have little choice but to put everyone on the same aircraft.

And in the US the President flies on one of the most sophisticated airplanes in existence. While I'm certain this was a fairly well kept Tu-154, I wonder exactly what the level of sophistication in its flight control system was. For instance, even a stock 747 can make a completely automated zero-zero ILS landing. The Tu-154 can make landing on unimproved surfaces, but I don't know what its capabilities are for landings in severely reduced visibility.

The plane was operated and maintained by Poland's 36th Special Aviation Regiment. http://vladenachescu.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/no-survivors-the-polish-tribute-and-more/

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[1969912 0]

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Yes, a sad event.

What's surprising to me is that they had so many important government people on the same plane. Isn't it SOP to distribute a group like that onto several planes?

In the USA, sure. But most smaller countries, especially those without the resources, have little choice but to put everyone on the same aircraft.

That makes sense, but surely the Polish AF would have many planes available for a ~500 mile hop. No conspiracy theory stuff - it just seems to me that they should have planned the journey better. I've worked for companies with less than 50 employees where I was not allowed to fly with VP level people because I was a "key person" (I think that was the term they used).

In any case, prayers for the families and the people of Poland.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[quade 3]

The other thing I mentioned earlier was the fuel status. The plane obviously has a range much farther than the hop in question, but it's always possible to take off with reduced fuel for a number of reasons.

If reports are to be believed that four and possibly five different attempts were made at landing. I wonder if it's possible that the pilot had been so pressed by his high-level passengers to make the landing he burned past his reserves to divert to an alternate airport.

I can not in my wildest imagination ever believe a reasonable pilot just by himself would continue to make approaches, four or five times, without getting the clue it's just not going to happen and diverting. High-level passengers pressure pilots to make horrible decisions all the time. Ultimately the responsibility lays with the pilot, but if the President of your country is telling you to try to land, what do you do? Tough spot to be in.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,406]

>I can not in my wildest imagination ever believe a reasonable pilot just by
>himself would continue to make approaches, four or five times, without
>getting the clue it's just not going to happen and diverting.

Happened (twice) to a 707 pilot trying to land in bad WX at JFK about 20 years ago. He knew he was low on fuel; was even reading the ops manual about approaches with minimum fuel. Never tried to divert though. Sadly he flew almost directly over another airport that could have handled him during his first missed approach.

[outski 0]

that's what i think. probably "high-level" passangers"make pilot land couz they wanted to be on time for the ceremony - 70th anniversary of massacre in Katyn. We lost there The Intellectuals of 2nd Republic of Poland, now of 3rd.

Before the plane crashed different one was not allowed to land, but they could only advise polish plane not to land. Just heard in news that one of black boxs (both are found) confirmed it was advised not to land. Hope there will be found a bit of conversation when decision to land was taken.

According to the plane - it was renovated lastly. There were some issues sometime ago about buying new planes for goverment but generally society was not for that, claiming it's lost of money and Poland can't afford it.
The jurnalists who usually goes in the same plane, needed to go by Jak-40 due to numer of "high-level" passangers".
Poland got one more Tu-154 (in renovation), 4 Jak-40 and 3 M-28 Bryza.

[Amazon 7]

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There has been a lot of cool aid being consumed this morning in my media news sources north of the border. But chances are likely that this was merely an IFR landing gone bad. What is really messed up is why were so many high ranking officials traveling together?

Man...all those damn liberals are out to get you....

[JanuszPS 0]

Yes, it is very unfortunate tragedy, and Yes that so many important people should never fly together in one plane. But Yes again, that what you have highly depend on this what you can afford. So they were using what they had. There was recently very loud debate (for couple of years) that a new fleet for VIP officials should be bought, now I think the decision will be much, much easier to be made by the politics and supported by the nation.
Another thing is that we had two planes. The crashed one was fully serviced just a year ago, including new avionics, however the place where there suppose to land wasn't equipped with any sophisticated system.
the weather was very bad. the second one is at the moment servicing and going though all the modifications.
the guy from Polish TV unauthorised entered the crash zone and made all those pictures which were displayed all over the world. before that he heard from his hotel room a noise of the engines of the landing plane. He described them as not typical and strange. Maybe a combination of some technical problems and bad weather was a reason. But we don't know yet.

political context:
there were advised to land in Minsk but they did not try to land there. Recently we do not have very good relations, I would even say very tense relations with Belarus, due to the persecute of the Polish minority. There is still dictatorship over there and loudly speaking about democracy minority is not very welcome. So they might not want to land for that reason.

historical context:
It is also important to put this in the historical context of the reason of that journey. there suppose to be a mass made in the honour and respect to 11k (from total of 22k) Polish officers killed/murdered by the red army (by shot in the head) in April 1940 in Katyn - it's 70th anniversary. So they might be very determined to attempt to land over there...
Many still belief that Russians even after all those years didn't give us all the information about the murder.
I fully understand the families of the murdered officers in Katyn and the President's support to fully uncover the truth as my grandfather was killed in one of the Soviet prisons and grandmother was sent to Siberia to die in one of the camps but fortunately she escaped.
It looks that Katyn reminded it's dark face to us Polish again.

regards
januszps

Back to Poland... back home.

[JanuszPS 0]

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Ultimately the responsibility lays with the pilot, but if the President of your country is telling you to try to land, what do you do? Tough spot to be in.

both black boxes should answer those questions. Hope joined Russian-Polish commission will be made to answer them.

the other thing is, that two from three the most important people stayed in in the country, so the country is not paralysed. There were several parliamentarians. Also the Army chief and all chiefs of headquarters died in the accident.

j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[1969912 0]

Thank you for your reply, and best wishes to you and your country.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[JanuszPS 0]

It appeared that one of our skydiving girls who was a crew member died in the accident.
blue sky
j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You own a firearm? Correct? To a Canadian Liberal this automatically makes you a neo-con even though we know here you are not one. I could be wrong, but my gut tells me this was an IFR landing gone wrong. But there is no shortage of "special sauce" cool aid being consumed north of the border today.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/10/poland-zaczynski-obit.html
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/04/10/poland-government-plane-crash.html

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 3]

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>I can not in my wildest imagination ever believe a reasonable pilot just by
>himself would continue to make approaches, four or five times, without
>getting the clue it's just not going to happen and diverting.

Happened (twice) to a 707 pilot trying to land in bad WX at JFK about 20 years ago. He knew he was low on fuel; was even reading the ops manual about approaches with minimum fuel. Never tried to divert though. Sadly he flew almost directly over another airport that could have handled him during his first missed approach.

I didn't rule it out. I said I couldn't imagine it. There have been a number of things happen over the course of history I can't imagine, yet they happened.

That said, four or five missed approaches is exceptionally rare. A single missed ought to tell you something is pretty f'ed up. A second one should tell you to divert. Four or five? That's going to crazy-town.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[outski 0]

4th

not sure how good, but here is simulation http://patrz.pl/filmy/symulacja-katastrofy-polskiego-samolotu-prezydenckiego-pod-smolenskiem

[headoverheels 291]

Is it too soon after the tragedy to make that joke that there was instability caused by poles in the right half plane?

[quade 3]

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Is it too soon after the tragedy to make that joke that there was instability caused by poles in the right half plane?

I dunno. Was that your joke? It's not "too soon" but it's also not funny. That's the thing about jokes, they're supposed to be funny.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver