Statement concerning summer Vigil AAD usage

[billvon 2,470]

>As for the life span, do you have a VCR that is over 12 years old?

Up until a few years ago I had a VCR that was built in 1982. Worked fine.

>Would you trust all the internal parts to be within the original
> manufactuer's specs? Electrical components wear out, just like mechanical
>components.

Actually, their wearout mechanisms are pretty different. The Voyager spacecraft are flying around in pretty hostile environments and still going strong after 26 years. Many FLASH-based systems (like cellphones and MP3 players) have a known wearout mechanism that kicks in at about 10 years. Electronics systems will last as long as you design them to; it would not be hard to design an AAD with a 50 year lifetime. The question is - would anyone want to pay for it?

>With something that important, I would want maintenance, inspections,
>and a life span.

How often do you get your car's airbags opened, inspected and repacked? Surely an airbag malfunction has the potential to be as deadly as an AAD misfire. They're designed to last the life of the car without inspections, though. AAD's can be designed to similar standards.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

>As for the life span, do you have a VCR that is over 12 years old?

Up until a few years ago I had a VCR that was built in 1982. Worked fine.

>Would you trust all the internal parts to be within the original
> manufactuer's specs? Electrical components wear out, just like mechanical
>components.

Actually, their wearout mechanisms are pretty different. The Voyager spacecraft are flying around in pretty hostile environments and still going strong after 26 years. Many FLASH-based systems (like cellphones and MP3 players) have a known wearout mechanism that kicks in at about 10 years. Electronics systems will last as long as you design them to; it would not be hard to design an AAD with a 50 year lifetime. The question is - would anyone want to pay for it?

>With something that important, I would want maintenance, inspections,
>and a life span.

How often do you get your car's airbags opened, inspected and repacked? Surely an airbag malfunction has the potential to be as deadly as an AAD misfire. They're designed to last the life of the car without inspections, though. AAD's can be designed to similar standards.

Sure, but people complain about $85 batteries, they aren't going to pony up for an AAD that lasts 50 years. What do you think a 50-year AAD would cost? I have no idea, but sounds expensive.

"Worked fine", but would you expect it to work perfectly, as an AAD must?

I don't think the 4-year inspection/maintannce chack is unreasonable. When I had an AAD, I had the option of skipping the 4-year, since I could keep it in my rig and pack it up myself and no one would be the wiser. I sent it in for the check.

Derek

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

Quote

How about the 4 year factory check hassle and the 12 year time out hassle and the fancy $60 battery hassle. My last 4 year check took all summer long.

I would rather have those problems than an AAD firing when it is not supposed to fire. My opinion.

Well, the summer it was gone to the factory and I didn't have it for the NW record bigway dives, it sure wasn't going to fire then if I needed it.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I would not expect 50 years lifetime.

I would expect minimum of 12 years and the device would indicate need for new battery or service.

[billvon 2,470]

>What do you think a 50-year AAD would cost? I have no idea,
>but sounds expensive.

Expense wouldn't be as much of an issue as size. The sort of components you'd need to use to get a 50 year life are significantly larger than the cheaper components normally used in consumer electronics. Cost would be about 3-4x a current one (everything else being equal.)

>"Worked fine", but would you expect it to work perfectly, as an AAD must?

?? I don't expect my AAD to work perfectly. To tell you the truth, I don't really expect it to work at all. One of the reasons I prefer cypreses to vigils is that they tend to fail "safe" i.e. they shut down rather than fire when there's a problem. Which is good from my perspective, but also means that there's a decent chance it won't work when I need it to.

>I don't think the 4-year inspection/maintannce chack is
> unreasonable.

Oh, I agree. It's not unreasonable at all, especially from a manufacturer's perspective; they have to worry about process improvements, software updates, liability etc. But there's no inherent reason (from an electrical design perspective) that it needs to be done.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Well crap, I was just going to buy a Vigil.

Any suggestions or recommendations?

Are they going to fix the problem or just put a warning label on it?

Don't take this the wrong way John, but you're a pretty cool guy. How's about you let other people do the Vigil beta-testing.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

Quote

Take also a look at the "live saves" and do the maths...

http://www.vigil.aero/life-saving-list.php

Either Emerald Coast had really bad week between 5/29 and 6/6, or #39 on that page refers to this jump and the claim of it being a "save" is not corroborated by the jumper.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

Take also a look at the "live saves" and do the maths...

http://www.vigil.aero/life-saving-list.php

Either Emerald Coast had really bad week between 5/29 and 6/6, or #39 on that page refers to this jump and the claim of it being a "save" is not corroborated by the jumper.

Blues,
Dave

I didn't fill out the paperwork that went to Vigil. That's all I have to say about that.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

Don't take this the wrong way John, but you're a pretty cool guy. How's about you let other people do the Vigil beta-testing.

Well, I'm already jumping a Vigil with most of my tandems. So far, so good.

Pretty interesting take on Krisanne's thing that Vigil claims.

[Reginald 0]

I like this one better

#37 Normal Fire Activation in a car

and these

#30 and #31 Normal Fire Activation Depressurized Cabin

and this one too

#25 Normal Fire Vigil ON when travelling...

I guess they have a pretty liberal interpertation of "normal fire"

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[inextremis 0]

Cabin pressurization fires, and fires in moving autos don't concern me, because Vigil gives specific instructions in their owners manual to avoid those circumstances. As I read their accounting of the August 06 firings, they don't say that the units merely got hot (although anyone who leaves their rig in a hot trunk is abusing lifesaving equipment, IMO, and sunlight degrades nylon at approx. a 70 hour half life). What they said was that the temperature and pressure were BOTH near critical maximums in the software, and that the compensation logic (relating pressure and temperature), required in any AAD, permitted the error. I suspect that this is at a 'lightning strike" level of probablitly. Of course, it sucks to get struck by lightning or have an AAD fire in a door. I don't trust my Vigil or my CYPRS2 (I own one of each), I'm very alert around open doors and on the camera step. But I also don't think we're seeing the Vigil function outside the parameters set by its software engineers, and I'm not convinced those parameters are inappropriate for skydiving..

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

(although anyone who leaves their rig in a hot trunk is abusing lifesaving equipment, IMO, and sunlight degrades nylon at approx. a 70 hour half life).

Do you have a source for this or know of any data to support it?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[inextremis 0]

When doing research to justify the construction of a hangar for a military skydiving club, we did some research and found that after 70 hours in direct sunlight, nylon canopy fabric (F-111) had degraded about 50% of its original strength when new. (Agree--that's not exactly a "half life") I don't recall if our source was from a manufacturer, an Army publication, the Poynter manual or maybe even the Chemistry department--but I do remember seeing it in writing. I'll ask our other riggers this week where we got that. We incorporated the info into our packing classes to help teach people not to leave gear in the sun. And yes, we got our hangar built.

[inextremis 0]

Here is a quote and the source--not the one we used originally--that says 50% reduction after 50 hours. Of course different canopy colors, treatments, etc. can extend that. I'm still going to try to find the original source we used. blue skies, Tom
"Military specifications for parachute materials state fabrics should not lose more than 25 percent of their original strength after 50 hours exposure to sunlight. Investigations into causes of deceleration parachute failures have shown strength loss of more than 50 percent after 50 hours of exposure to sunlight."
http://www.tpub.com/1ase2/97.htm

[Reginald 0]

Quote

I'm not convinced those parameters are inappropriate for skydiving..

I am. We see continued reports of Vigils firing when they should not; this is a defect in the algorithm. It is important for a device like this not only to fire when I should but to also refrain from firing when it should not. There are WAY to many cases of Vigils firing in circumstances that are obviously not related to an actual skydive; the device should be smart enough to understand the difference. No device is perfect and there could always be unique cases that fool even a well-designed AAD. I’m sure Cypres went through the same thing but that was a decade ago they have it figured out now. The Cypres 2 is rock solid. Vigil is not. Moreover Vigil has as much admitted the product is severely defective in that it says, ‘it is producing a “new” Vigil with less “inconveniences”. The more bizarre part is that since there is no factory required maintenance the units in the field now will most likely never get the software update, i.e. fix, the “new” Vigils will have. Yet, Vigil still advertises no “required” factory maintenance as a “feature”. Here again Cypres got it right.

Oh, I better be careful or Vigil will start writing letters saying that “there are some intentional comments in various forums trying to spread rumors or make speculations as facts in order to destroy Vigil image in the mind of skydivers.” I think this is what bothers me the most. This is one of the most unprofessional statements from a company I’ve ever read. I’ve worked in the business world a long time and had to deal with all sorts of problems. It’s one of the most fundamental tenets of good corporate behavior and communication not to lash out at customers or critics. What an absolute bush league thing to do.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[dorbie 0]

That looks like it is in reference to canopies which are made from very thin material. Webbing is thick and of a different construction so the material is not exposed to sunlight in the same way. You cannot take that information and apply it to harnesses.

[Ron 7]

Quote

But I also don't think we're seeing the Vigil function outside the parameters set by its software engineers, and I'm not convinced those parameters are inappropriate for skydiving..

Don't you think it would be better if it didn't screw up at all?

Lets face it....It has issues and even though those issues are small...They are still issues. And the company has ignored and down played their issues for quite some time. And we KEEP finding new issues.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sundevil777 94]

You were able to make sense of that double speak from the Vigil letter? Please help us understand. What was so extreme about how they were handled?

Sunlight doesn't get into most trunks.

Lightning strike level of probability? I say that an incident is no longer isolated when it has lots of company.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,470]

>Cabin pressurization fires, and fires in moving autos don't
>concern me, because Vigil gives specific instructions in their owners
>manual to avoid those circumstances.

They concern me because I sometimes jump from pressurizable aircraft and transport my rig in a moving automobile. But if there are people out there who do not have those issues - great; it might be a good AAD for them (once they fix the heat-related problems.)

>although anyone who leaves their rig in a hot trunk is abusing lifesaving equipment . . .

Around here, just leaving them in the shade results in temperatures of 115F. Since I have to use packers when I'm team training, the rig itself sometimes gets left in the sun for a few minutes - resulting in much higher internal temps.

>and I'm not convinced those parameters are inappropriate for skydiving.

They are inappropriate for the sort of skydiving I do, but everyone's different. Heck, a cypres-2 may be inappropriate for a CRW jumper.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

You would think that testing their design at temperatures should have already been done.

No wonder some DZs are grounding them.

This type of testing is required on rigs to get TSO approval. Why would anyone want to use an AAD that could not pass the same requirment?

4.3.3 Compressed Pack and Environmental Tests: Three drops shall be made to the lowest applicable direct drop speed in 4.3.6 except that prior to the test the parachute assembly shall be subjected to the following preconditioning: (These tests may be combined with other tests.)

4.3.3.1 Precondition for 16 h at not less than +200 °F (93.3 °C), stabilize to ambient and test
drop.

4.3.3.2 Precondition for 16 h at not greater than -40 °F (-40 °C), stabilize to ambient and test drop.

4.3.3.3 Precondition for not less than 400 continuous hours with a 200 lbf (889.6 N) or greater load applied to compress the pack in a manner similar to that most likely to be encountered in actual use. Test drop within 1 h after removing the load.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

• Quote

[inextremis 0]

[inextremis 0]

Quote

That looks like it is in reference to canopies which are made from very thin material. Webbing is thick and of a different construction so the material is not exposed to sunlight in the same way. You cannot take that information and apply it to harnesses.

Webbing is definitely degraded over time by sunlight/UV, especially the stitching. Now, 50 hours, 70 hours, 100 hours--who knows, I'm more than willing to roll on time frames because there are too many other variables involved. My point was simply that leaving skydiving gear in the sun longer than necessary is not good practice.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Cabin pressurization fires, and fires in moving autos don't concern me, because Vigil gives specific instructions in their owners manual to avoid those circumstances.

It gives you instruction NOT to jump from pressurized aircrafts?
It gives you instructions to take special care for moving autos?
Now it will probably give you instructions to keep your rig in thermostat to maintain stable temperature? And probably, to jump with this thermostat?

Well, what I can say - there is AAD, which does not have this "issues" (which actually are defects).

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[PhreeZone 15]

The car ones worry me becaue I thought there was an arming altitude to a Vigil. That ment that the unit still would have to have been in an armed mode the entire time after the units were jumped and then loaded into the car and then driven around. My understand is the units go into a "Hyper" mode where they start sensing the pressure more frequently when it detects its climbed a little bit, but how long after landing does it stay in this mode?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

In our case (the Beiseker incident described in G&R) the units rose to ~2450' above 'ground' level before descending to ~500' below 'ground' level. The time frame between summit and the bottom of the canyon is not more than 30 minutes. Altitude changes during this period although not consistent with skydiving would be more or less continuous. It is not surprising that the units remained armed.

Quote

The car ones worry me becaue I thought there was an arming altitude to a Vigil. That ment that the unit still would have to have been in an armed mode the entire time after the units were jumped and then loaded into the car and then driven around. My understand is the units go into a "Hyper" mode where they start sensing the pressure more frequently when it detects its climbed a little bit, but how long after landing does it stay in this mode?