should switzerland ban the building of minarets!?

[Andy9o8 0]

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since the election is coming up this sunday, what's the take of the mostly americans on this place!?

like, uhm, we have direct democracy here, so we can vote about all sorts of stuff..

Ever wonder why (or did you know) that the US is not a democracy but a republic and why?

James Madison said, "Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention, have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property, and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death."

The reasonS why the US was formed as a republic, and not a pure democracy, are multi-fold, and not singular. The reasons cited publicly by the Founding Fathers was to avoid the tyranny of the majority, as well as the logistical impracticality (especially then) of submitting all legislation to universal popular vote. However, a powerful undercurrent, whispered and tacitly understood, but rarely mentioned for public consumption, was the fact that the Founding Fathers and their close associates were mainly rich landowners, and frankly did not trust poor, uneducated rubes to actively participate in government.

[quade 3]

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And for those complaining about religious intolerance, please do the same in regard to Saudi Arabia, where Christians cannot go to church -- because none are allowed to be built there.

Or . . . just try visiting the city of Mecca.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

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And for those complaining about religious intolerance, please do the same in regard to Saudi Arabia, where Christians cannot go to church -- because none are allowed to be built there.

OK. I'm not sure if you're saying that two wrongs make a right, or that you advocate Switzerland becoming more like Saudi Arabia. Either idea is pretty silly.

[quade 3]

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And for those complaining about religious intolerance, please do the same in regard to Saudi Arabia, where Christians cannot go to church -- because none are allowed to be built there.

OK. I'm not sure if you're saying that two wrongs make a right, or that you advocate Switzerland becoming more like Saudi Arabia. Either idea is pretty silly.

I think he's trying to point out the hypocritical nature of some religious movements.


At least I am.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

I prefer my hyperbolic spin. That way people can urge me to chill out and get laid.

[virgin-burner 1]

well, they are allowed to build places of worship; as there are buddhist and hindu temples, it's just a matter of the calling towers, those minarets.

the swiss people's party also opposes islamist girls not participating in sports class, no swim education, etc. there are efforts of islamist groups that dont want cruxifixes in class-rooms; some regions here are deeply religious, much like the "bible-belt".

same goes on in italy, germany as i pointed out and also in france; please leave the joking about france for once..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

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And for those complaining about religious intolerance, please do the same in regard to Saudi Arabia, where Christians cannot go to church -- because none are allowed to be built there.

OK. I'm not sure if you're saying that two wrongs make a right, or that you advocate Switzerland becoming more like Saudi Arabia. Either idea is pretty silly.

I think he's trying to point out the hypocritical nature of some religious movements.


At least I am.

in fact, in some arabic countries you face death by "stoning" if you're christian..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

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I prefer my hyperbolic spin. That way people can urge me to chill out and get laid.

why dont you chill the fuck out and get laid!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[yourmomma 0]

Ding ding. Two years after buying my house a church was built across the street. In the steeple was a loud speaker that chimed once on the half hour then the number of the hour. I asked the pastor why the tolling stopped at eight pm. He told me he didn't want to disturb the neighbors or HIS family. I politely explained that I worked 3rd shift and waking every half hour was very disturbing. His response, in not so many words was, tuff shit. I responded by blaring(far louder) music whenever people were entering or exiting the church for service. My front door faced the front doors of the church. So I would emidiatly pull the speakers inside and clam ingnorance when the police arrived. After several hundred dollars worth of noise complaint fines, the tolling stopped. Turns out the fire house down the street wasn't fond of being woken every half hour after a night of battling fires. At any rate I had decided to sell rather than fight any longer. The last couple of months cost me about 900 in fines but it was well worth it for the looks of disgust as perishoners entered and left services to black sabath and megadeath.

[christelsabine 1]

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well, they are allowed to build places of worship; as there are buddhist and hindu temples, it's just a matter of the calling towers, those minarets.

the swiss people's party also opposes islamist girls not participating in sports class, no swim education, etc. there are efforts of islamist groups that dont want cruxifixes in class-rooms; some regions here are deeply religious, much like the "bible-belt".

same goes on in italy, germany as i pointed out and also in france; please leave the joking about france for once..

(What? Joking about France? I'd never dare)

We have the same here. Even in schools they decided to remove The Cross from the wall (in certain places) in order not to hurt the emotions of folks with a different faith. Ridiculous.

And the "headscarf" issue still is to be clarified (including what you said: no sport, no swimming .... for girls).

Even my own hometown shows me it sometimes works, we have to set limits somewhere. Our limits.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[masterblaster72 0]

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And for those complaining about religious intolerance, please do the same in regard to Saudi Arabia, where Christians cannot go to church -- because none are allowed to be built there.

OK. I'm not sure if you're saying that two wrongs make a right, or that you advocate Switzerland becoming more like Saudi Arabia. Either idea is pretty silly.

That's all you dude...I'm not saying either of the things you mentioned in your reply.

I don't think that the idea of deferring to the people to decide on an issue is a silly one. And that's not at all like Saudi Arabia, where the royal family, rather than the people, have a say in whether churches get built. I wonder whether the majority of Saudi Arabians oppose the building of churches in their own country...I wouldn't be surprised at all if the majority of people there are not in favor of that law.

To each country its own...if the majority of Swiss citizens feel that minarets don't fit in, then let it be. That's the way I see it anyhow.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[jakee 1,271]

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I see the signs here in Zurich "ja zum minaret verboten"...if that's what the majority of the country wants, then they absolutely should be banned.

So you're a supporter of the tyrrany of the majority.

Why should 50.1% of a country be able to overrule the rights of the other 49.9%?

this, unlike buying your presidency, democracy; but maybe you dont know the difference..

Too lazy to look at the country right beneath my screen name? Unless you mean Van Rompuy, I have no President

regardless, you haven't answered, or perhaps understood, my question; Why should 50.1% of a country be able to overrule the rights of the other 49.9%?

"Democracy, yay!" isn't an answer - you have to justify direct, unchecked democracy.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,271]

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I see the signs here in Zurich "ja zum minaret verboten"...if that's what the majority of the country wants, then they absolutely should be banned.

So you're a supporter of the tyrrany of the majority.

Why should 50.1% of a country be able to overrule the rights of the other 49.9%?

Because that's the way it works my friend...not an ideal system (recent American history shows that), but it's the best we've got.

Uh, OK. You are aware that that is absolutely not the way it works in America, and indeed most western nations, right?

A lot of people would say that a Constitutional democracy would be the best system, what is your opposition to the 'Constitutional' part?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[virgin-burner 1]

obviously you dont have no clue about the system in switzerland and cant be bothered what i wrote further up about it..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[d16842 0]

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I see the signs here in Zurich "ja zum minaret verboten"...if that's what the majority of the country wants, then they absolutely should be banned.

So you're a supporter of the tyrrany of the majority.

Why should 50.1% of a country be able to overrule the rights of the other 49.9%?

We do it all the time in the US. We just politely call it zoning when we ban things. And those in control damn sure inflict their rule on others for commercial purposes. The Supreme Court recently gave them the the power of eminent domain for just that reason, ridding themselves of the long practices of it being for public good.

Don't forget the Swiss definitely have a big turism industry, based almost completely on their historical image. This is NOT a freedom of relgion issue per say, but one of appearance of the community. But I suspect it is deeper.

My guess is that they don't really want to inflict their power over the Muslums there today, so much as placing those considering moving there on notice that they plan to maintain the apparance of the community, and by implication their current practices and laws. Given Muslums' penchant to demand the application of Islamic law when they reach a majority, that is understandable, if sad.

Other "Christian" European nations will become ones of Muslum majority in the not to distant future, so they Swiss may have a real concern. Their style of life is at stake.

Would you want a quickly growing Islamic Majority imposing Islamic law in your home. Note the British have aleady taken the first step to that.

Tom B

[jakee 1,271]

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obviously you dont have no clue about the system in switzerland and cant be bothered what i wrote further up about it..

Dude, I've read what you've written. Unfprtunately, you don't seem to have bothered to actually read and comprehend my posts.

I'm not talking about what the system in Switzerland allows people to decide, I'm talking about whether it is right that a simple majority should be able to overturn the rights of a minority.

I asked you to justify direct democracy, not to tell me again that Switzerland has direct democracy. I got that already.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[virgin-burner 1]

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obviously you dont have no clue about the system in switzerland and cant be bothered what i wrote further up about it..

Dude, I've read what you've written. Unfprtunately, you don't seem to have bothered to actually read and comprehend my posts.

I'm not talking about what the system in Switzerland allows people to decide, I'm talking about whether it is right that a simple majority should be able to overturn the rights of a minority.

I asked you to justify direct democracy, not to tell me again that Switzerland has direct democracy. I got that already.

that IS my point, there's indirect AND direct democracy..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Andy9o8 0]

Anyhow, it's heart-warming to see that the existence of racist motherfuckers is a universal human condition.

[virgin-burner 1]

they're EVERYWHERE!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[jakee 1,271]

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that IS my point, there's indirect AND direct democracy..

Ok, look, just go back and look at the first post that I replied to, which you in turn replied to, and check out the context of my remarks. We're talking at cross purposes here.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[virgin-burner 1]

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that IS my point, there's indirect AND direct democracy..

Ok, look, just go back and look at the first post that I replied to, which you in turn replied to, and check out the context of my remarks. We're talking at cross purposes here.

that might be; but, how in your world, should democracy then work? right is right what you think is right; or should the majority of people be concerned? or should everyone just do as they please; that would be called anarchy..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[MrDree 0]

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To each country its own...if the majority of Swiss citizens feel that minarets don't fit in, then let it be. That's the way I see it anyhow.

Even if it's in violation with international conventions Switzerland ratified?


IMO, the Swiss People's Party is just a bunch of retarded, racist, xenophobic, intolerant, bigot, populist assholes. Everything they say is just a huge pile of shit, and I'm always sad to see how many people buy that shit.

"One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching."

Dudeist Skydiver #101

[virgin-burner 1]

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To each country its own...if the majority of Swiss citizens feel that minarets don't fit in, then let it be. That's the way I see it anyhow.

Even if it's in violation with international conventions Switzerland ratified?


IMO, the Swiss People's Party is just a bunch of retarded, racist, xenophobic, intolerant, bigot, populist assholes. Everything they say is just a huge pile of shit, and I'm always sad to see how many people buy that shit.

so do many other countries.. or they dont even follow the humans rights convention.. not that that's a good thing, but it's just the way it is..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[jakee 1,271]

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that might be; but, how in your world, should democracy then work? right is right what you think is right; or should the majority of people be concerned? or should everyone just do as they please; that would be called anarchy..

The rule making power of democracy needs to be checked at the point it infringes on the rights of any section of the population. You can't just let a majority decide to take away from a minority what the majority is allowed. That's incompatible with a free society.

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so do many other countries.. or they dont even follow the humans rights convention.. not that that's a good thing, but it's just the way it is..

And some people are thieves and drug dealers, but that doesn't mean it's an acceptable way for you or me to make a living.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[virgin-burner 1]

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that might be; but, how in your world, should democracy then work? right is right what you think is right; or should the majority of people be concerned? or should everyone just do as they please; that would be called anarchy..

The rule making power of democracy needs to be checked at the point it infringes on the rights of any section of the population. You can't just let a majority decide to take away from a minority what the majority is allowed. That's incompatible with a free society.

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so do many other countries.. or they dont even follow the humans rights convention.. not that that's a good thing, but it's just the way it is..

And some people are thieves and drug dealers, but that doesn't mean it's an acceptable way for you or me to make a living.

and in that regard, you as a member of the UK should be pretty mute about; government-sanctioned torture of detainees!? switzerland doesnt do that!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda