I Suppose We Should Thank Joe Wilson

[funjumper101 15]

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Their bias is in the reporting of Cloud Cuckoo Land, where Marc lives.

Well we now know that the land of Cloud Cuckoo is closer to reality than where ever it is the hell you hang out

Funny thing about facts, Marc, is that you just can't get away from them. You consistently deny factual information and repeat horseshit that supports your firmly held views.

Kallend has been completely open about his education, profession, and life experience. I have challenged you on numerous occasions to do the same. You don't.

When it comes to credibility and common sense, I'll take the opinions of an established college professsor, with numerous publications to his credit, over the rantings of some random dude in Iowa who appears to have never really been anywhere, done anything of note, and who sees the world though a soda straw when it comes to envisioning the big picture.

[livendive 8]

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What is sounds like you just said is, “There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," is a truthful statement.

Yep. That's the truth. Not the whole truth. But the truth.

No, the plans have zero intentions of insuring illegal immigrants. Insurance is the wrong word. They plan on sending them to a separate "indemnity" plan outside of this system.

Edited to add: AND - it means that those who claim that the new plan will insure illegals is false, too.

No insurance but a governement run health program, like a medicare?

Got to admit they are good trying to hide the devil in detail. Cant come out and say anything straight forward

He was talking about his reforms, and what they will and will not do. The will not cover illegal immigrants. Whatever other coverage illegal immigrants might have access to is not part of his reform, and thus not particularly relevent in his speech. You could make the argument that his reform SHOULD exclude illegals from receiving any care, but you'd have a much tougher row to hoe. If he wants to get something done, he's better off leaving that bit of controversy well enough alone.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 18]

I have state what I do and where I work

What the hell do you think you need to know???

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[downwardspiral 0]

Well let me first say the final question looks suspiciously like a plant. What was wrong with the kid who had the mic being the actual final question? Nope wrong kid had the mic.

Secondly, Obama brought up the subject entirely on his own when asked about how he stays motivated.

Thirdly I would have answered it this way if I were Obama.

It's not a matter of whether we can or can not....because we can...and that is what I'm working on. Is it right thing to do for America and Americans? I think it is but the people have some very legitimate and reasonable concerns and we need to take them into consideration because universal health care is an extremely complicated issue so we need to make sure we get it right... for America.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[rushmc 18]

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What is sounds like you just said is, “There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," is a truthful statement.

Yep. That's the truth. Not the whole truth. But the truth.

No, the plans have zero intentions of insuring illegal immigrants. Insurance is the wrong word. They plan on sending them to a separate "indemnity" plan outside of this system.

Edited to add: AND - it means that those who claim that the new plan will insure illegals is false, too.

No insurance but a governement run health program, like a medicare?

Got to admit they are good trying to hide the devil in detail. Cant come out and say anything straight forward

He was talking about his reforms, and what they will and will not do. The will not cover illegal immigrants. Whatever other coverage illegal immigrants might have access to is not part of his reform, and thus not particularly relevent in his speech. You could make the argument that his reform SHOULD exclude illegals from receiving any care, but you'd have a much tougher row to hoe. If he wants to get something done, he's better off leaving that bit of controversy well enough alone.

Blues,
Dave

Then give me some detail?

All the hell he does is demonize companies and people to invoke anger and then say we got to do something fast!!!

Why?


There is simple reform that would make a big difference almost right away but no, we got to have government control !

Bullshit

Tort reform and open up the states borders and eliminate state required coverages.

There are aprox 1700 insurance comanies in this country. You know how many you can pick from in CA???

6!!!! Plus that that state has the most mandates.

Sorry dude. Gov control is not the answer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

I'm curious if all the people opposed to any form of public healthcare would be willing to sign a contract to never use it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[livendive 8]

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What is sounds like you just said is, “There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," is a truthful statement.

Yep. That's the truth. Not the whole truth. But the truth.

No, the plans have zero intentions of insuring illegal immigrants. Insurance is the wrong word. They plan on sending them to a separate "indemnity" plan outside of this system.

Edited to add: AND - it means that those who claim that the new plan will insure illegals is false, too.

No insurance but a governement run health program, like a medicare?

Got to admit they are good trying to hide the devil in detail. Cant come out and say anything straight forward

He was talking about his reforms, and what they will and will not do. The will not cover illegal immigrants. Whatever other coverage illegal immigrants might have access to is not part of his reform, and thus not particularly relevent in his speech. You could make the argument that his reform SHOULD exclude illegals from receiving any care, but you'd have a much tougher row to hoe. If he wants to get something done, he's better off leaving that bit of controversy well enough alone.

Blues,
Dave

Then give me some detail?

All the hell he does is demonize companies and people to invoke anger and then say we got to do something fast!!!

Why?


There is simple reform that would make a big difference almost right away but no, we got to have government control !

Bullshit

Tort reform and open up the states borders and eliminate state required coverages.

There are aprox 1700 insurance comanies in this country. You know how many you can pick from in CA???

6!!!! Plus that that state has the most mandates.

Sorry dude. Gov control is not the answer

Right or wrong, none of that makes what Obama said a lie, or what Joe Wilson said the truth.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kbordson 8]

Congressman Wilson might have had some cajones heckling like that, but what he did was wrong. He did not give President Obamas position or even his position the respect that should accompany those elected ranks.

I've often heard "respect is earned" and one could question whether Congressman Wilson feels that President Obama has worked to earn that respect, but even if the person isn't respected, the position should. Heckling the President on national television is in VERY POOR taste.

HOW to address this breach of conduct though.... a fine? you know that some supporters will gladly cough up what ever amount; a suspension? would that be a punishment at all; suspension without pay? Congressmen are paid by salary. I don't think that would hurt him. Jail? First Amendment rights.

America needs to stop encouraging such polarized attitudes.

[rushmc 18]

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What is sounds like you just said is, “There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," is a truthful statement.

Yep. That's the truth. Not the whole truth. But the truth.

No, the plans have zero intentions of insuring illegal immigrants. Insurance is the wrong word. They plan on sending them to a separate "indemnity" plan outside of this system.

Edited to add: AND - it means that those who claim that the new plan will insure illegals is false, too.

No insurance but a governement run health program, like a medicare?

Got to admit they are good trying to hide the devil in detail. Cant come out and say anything straight forward

He was talking about his reforms, and what they will and will not do. The will not cover illegal immigrants. Whatever other coverage illegal immigrants might have access to is not part of his reform, and thus not particularly relevent in his speech. You could make the argument that his reform SHOULD exclude illegals from receiving any care, but you'd have a much tougher row to hoe. If he wants to get something done, he's better off leaving that bit of controversy well enough alone.

Blues,
Dave

Then give me some detail?

All the hell he does is demonize companies and people to invoke anger and then say we got to do something fast!!!

Why?


There is simple reform that would make a big difference almost right away but no, we got to have government control !

Bullshit

Tort reform and open up the states borders and eliminate state required coverages.

There are aprox 1700 insurance comanies in this country. You know how many you can pick from in CA???

6!!!! Plus that that state has the most mandates.

Sorry dude. Gov control is not the answer

Right or wrong, none of that makes what Obama said a lie, or what Joe Wilson said the truth.

Blues,
Dave

No answer from you then. Noted

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

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Congressman Wilson might have had some cajones heckling like that, but what he did was wrong. He did not give President Obamas position or even his position the respect that should accompany those elected ranks.

I've often heard "respect is earned" and one could question whether Congressman Wilson feels that President Obama has worked to earn that respect, but even if the person isn't respected, the position should. Heckling the President on national television is in VERY POOR taste.

HOW to address this breach of conduct though.... a fine? you know that some supporters will gladly cough up what ever amount; a suspension? would that be a punishment at all; suspension without pay? Congressmen are paid by salary. I don't think that would hurt him. Jail? First Amendment rights.

America needs to stop encouraging such polarized attitudes.

I was wondering when this would be presented . . .

The POTUS' "respect" is directly relevant to the amount of bowing to and denial of hand shaking is involved. He has lost the respect of the office by himself. One cannot immaculately gain respect without it being earned. He does NOT deserve the amount of respect he gets even now, not even what was left obver from the last administration, which is not much.

That said, I still believe that Wilson was incorrect in his doings. This was not a town hall meetiong and he should have held himself to a higher standard, the same as he expects from the POTUS.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[LyraM45 0]

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And the icing on the cake is that Wilson is the liar:

http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200909090009

Y'all are funny.

Do you really believe that any politician has been 100% truthful all his/her life? ANY one of them lies on a daily basis. Time to take off your rose colored GOP hating glasses and join reality.

I don't' give a damn what party someone is with.
I think Ron Paul is as good as they get, and he is in the GOP.
I think Pelosi is a waste of space, and she is a Democrat.
The fact is the majority of the politicians who have been making complete asses of themselves lately, come from the GOP.
Deal with it.

Here is a link to the video of where and why . . .

I agree that it was bad form, but the POTUS had just finished doing exactly the same thing to the majority of the GOP.

The hard part that noone can seem to grasp is that even though it was bad form, it was a truthful statement.

And to Matt:
Both parties are morally corrupt and finacially inept and the inverse is correct as well; the parties are morrally inept and financially corrupt.

Edited to correct link syntax

I don't think he ever called the GOP out by name... he was taking that statement to the edge in what he said that obviously referenced the GOP, but never once called them out directly by name, which is MUCH better taste than the guy with the outburst.

I saw people reference that they do this in england, which in fact they do, but only to an extent. They throw banter back and forth, much different than what we do in the U.S house, but a British Parlament member called Margaret Thatcher a liar one time directly to her face during forum, and that person was escorted out of the hall and I think he was throw out completely for good, though I am not 100% sure on the last bit of that about being thrown out for good.

All in all, I think this just shows the levels the polarized right are taking this to. NEVER.... NEVER in the history of congressional addresses was somebody ever so disrespectful. Even with Presidents (like Reagan) who really were in fact liars! This SC senator looks even more ridiculous when you look at the bill-- the amendment the senator was using to base his case that the POS was a liar was a DEFEATED amendment. It was an amendment that did include illegal aliens in the health care act, but it got shot down, and it got shot down very quickly. It is now said in the actual bill that no person who is on U.S soil illegally shall be taken care of as part of this bill using these funds. I do not have the exact part of the bill in front of me that says that, but I'll have to do some digging and find the text.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[turtlespeed 212]

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And the icing on the cake is that Wilson is the liar:

http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200909090009

Y'all are funny.

Do you really believe that any politician has been 100% truthful all his/her life? ANY one of them lies on a daily basis. Time to take off your rose colored GOP hating glasses and join reality.

I don't' give a damn what party someone is with.
I think Ron Paul is as good as they get, and he is in the GOP.
I think Pelosi is a waste of space, and she is a Democrat.
The fact is the majority of the politicians who have been making complete asses of themselves lately, come from the GOP.
Deal with it.

Here is a link to the video of where and why . . .

I agree that it was bad form, but the POTUS had just finished doing exactly the same thing to the majority of the GOP.

The hard part that noone can seem to grasp is that even though it was bad form, it was a truthful statement.

And to Matt:
Both parties are morally corrupt and finacially inept and the inverse is correct as well; the parties are morrally inept and financially corrupt.

Edited to correct link syntax

I don't think he ever called the GOP out by name... he was taking that statement to the edge in what he said that obviously referenced the GOP, but never once called them out directly by name, which is MUCH better taste than the guy with the outburst.

I saw people reference that they do this in england, which in fact they do, but only to an extent. They throw banter back and forth, much different than what we do in the U.S house, but a British Parlament member called Margaret Thatcher a liar one time directly to her face during forum, and that person was escorted out of the hall and I think he was throw out completely for good, though I am not 100% sure on the last bit of that about being thrown out for good.

All in all, I think this just shows the levels the polarized right are taking this to. NEVER.... NEVER in the history of congressional addresses was somebody ever so disrespectful. Even with Presidents (like Reagan) who really were in fact liars! This SC senator looks even more ridiculous when you look at the bill-- the amendment the senator was using to base his case that the POS was a liar was a DEFEATED amendment. It was an amendment that did include illegal aliens in the health care act, but it got shot down, and it got shot down very quickly. It is now said in the actual bill that no person who is on U.S soil illegally shall be taken care of as part of this bill using these funds. I do not have the exact part of the bill in front of me that says that, but I'll have to do some digging and find the text.

See my previous post in this thread regarding respect and earnings of the current POTUS.

My point is that the congressman read through the BS and stated what most of the people that disagree with the plana and see it for what it is, wish they could say.

I'm not saying I agree with his methods, just that he is right in the big picture. SORT OF

The laymans telling of this is that since we cannot ask, or confirm, or use discovery to determine wether the person of question is an illegal alien, then we wouldn't deny them coverage. If you look at the underlying message and weed through the political double speak, there is no way to enforce section 246.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[LyraM45 0]

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I think it is a symptom of how sharply divided we are right now in general. I mean, at every opportunity people throw out the labels as a standard part of every insult, as part of every objection, even just in passing comments.

Look at this fiasco over the Obama presentation. All he is looking to do is throw his weight and influence behind the idea that kids should get the best education they can; and people turn it into a partisan issue.

They are more concerned with image and superficial BS than fundamental principles and the common good. 'Yes, it's good to stay in school and get an education, but we don't want them to hear it from a Democrat.' What kind of lame BS is that?

So now we have to engrain partisan politics into elementary students because when they are ready to see the speech some certain group of kids will be getting up and leaving the room. Nice fucking result. And I'm guessing there will be some truly ignorant parents on both ends who will have something to say to their kids about the kids who did not do the same as their's.

Truly pathetic. Instead of emphasizing education, we are emphasizing the importance of partisan politics. I'm more worried about the legacy we are building for our kids than the miscreant behaviors of professional politicians - who are pretty much lost causes already.

I think the best thing that could happen to the average politician would be to have a near death experience that results in some sort of epiphany that causes them to stop behaving like the narrow-minded self-serving assholes that they are and start behaving as if the public interest was their real job.

It's not as pathetic or paranoid as you or others may think. There was genuine and reasonable concern Obama was going to make the school speech political. Well the speech certainly wasn't but he sure couldn't pass up the opportunity to make his national healthcare sales pitch to a bunch of freshman.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-in-Discussion-with-9th-Graders-Wakefield-High-School/

Credit to 1969912 for finding the link.

He was asked a question in a student forum, and he gave an answer. MUCH different than a planned out speech pushing his agendas across the country. I am POSITIVE that Bush, Clinton, or any other president in the past 10 years would have answered a question like that in the same type of forum with high schoolers or adults.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[livendive 8]

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Right or wrong, none of that makes what Obama said a lie, or what Joe Wilson said the truth.

Blues,
Dave

No answer from you then. Noted

My post addressed the topic of this thread, which is Joe Wilson calling Obama a liar during a joint session. It appears that Joe's claim was false. That's not to say Obama has never lied, but that he was not lying by making the statement in question.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 18]

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Right or wrong, none of that makes what Obama said a lie, or what Joe Wilson said the truth.

Blues,
Dave

No answer from you then. Noted

My post addressed the topic of this thread, which is Joe Wilson calling Obama a liar during a joint session. It appears that Joe's claim was false. That's not to say Obama has never lied, but that he was not lying by making the statement in question.

Blues,
Dave

No, Wilsons claim is true. If he was lieing why would the house and senate defete bills aimed only at excluding those being talked about.

And until Obama pukes up some detail HE cant make the claim that he is not offering them as much

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[downwardspiral 0]

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I think it is a symptom of how sharply divided we are right now in general. I mean, at every opportunity people throw out the labels as a standard part of every insult, as part of every objection, even just in passing comments.

Look at this fiasco over the Obama presentation. All he is looking to do is throw his weight and influence behind the idea that kids should get the best education they can; and people turn it into a partisan issue.

They are more concerned with image and superficial BS than fundamental principles and the common good. 'Yes, it's good to stay in school and get an education, but we don't want them to hear it from a Democrat.' What kind of lame BS is that?

So now we have to engrain partisan politics into elementary students because when they are ready to see the speech some certain group of kids will be getting up and leaving the room. Nice fucking result. And I'm guessing there will be some truly ignorant parents on both ends who will have something to say to their kids about the kids who did not do the same as their's.

Truly pathetic. Instead of emphasizing education, we are emphasizing the importance of partisan politics. I'm more worried about the legacy we are building for our kids than the miscreant behaviors of professional politicians - who are pretty much lost causes already.

I think the best thing that could happen to the average politician would be to have a near death experience that results in some sort of epiphany that causes them to stop behaving like the narrow-minded self-serving assholes that they are and start behaving as if the public interest was their real job.

It's not as pathetic or paranoid as you or others may think. There was genuine and reasonable concern Obama was going to make the school speech political. Well the speech certainly wasn't but he sure couldn't pass up the opportunity to make his national healthcare sales pitch to a bunch of freshman.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-in-Discussion-with-9th-Graders-Wakefield-High-School/

Credit to 1969912 for finding the link.

He was asked a question in a student forum, and he gave an answer. MUCH different than a planned out speech pushing his agendas across the country. I am POSITIVE that Bush, Clinton, or any other president in the past 10 years would have answered a question like that in the same type of forum with high schoolers or adults.

Yes I understand exactly where he was and what he was doing.

The smart thing for him to have done would have been to avoid politics completely considering the criticism from his opponents. Instead he brings up, on his very own, a story about a person who has a medical debt of $100k because of not having insurance and is losing her house. Intentionally appealing to the emotions of a bunch of 14 year olds for the sake of selling his 'public option' or was this truly the best example of a depressing letter he received?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Bolas 5]

Calling a politician a liar is generally pointless as something concrete has to actually be said you can pin them to. We all know what happened to the last guy who said "Read my lips."

It may have sounded good and possibly reassuring to some, but was "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Joe's got cajones, but ya gotta actually catch them lying for it to be effective. As such, he just looks silly.

Kudos to the left for not throwing the race card.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[turtlespeed 212]

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Calling a politician a liar is generally pointless as something concrete has to actually be said you can pin them to. We all know what happened to the last guy who said "Read my lips."

It may have sounded good and possibly reassuring to some, but was "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Joe's got cajones, but ya gotta actually catch them lying for it to be effective. As such, he just looks silly.

Kudos to the left for not throwing the race card.

Are you implying that just because Obama is half black, he is a liar? Or is it that he isn't a liar becaus of the same reasons?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Channman 2]

> Heckling the President on national television is in VERY POOR taste.

The same respect the Dem's gave GWB during his 2005 State of the Union speach when he was Booed?

Hell, I'm a little tired of the left given us lessons on decorum when they themselves lack in it. It is interesting that the subject is Congressmen Wilson's lack of respect, and not the lies flowing from the lips of the President.

Now maybe I shouldn't call the President a liar, that's not at all in good taste, maybe I'll call him, "Story Guy".

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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he government wants to force people to be responsible

Out of curiosity, do you also object to mandatory auto insurance, or do you think that too should be a matter of personal responsibility?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Bolas 5]

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Are you implying that just because Obama is half black, he is a liar? Or is it that he isn't a liar becaus of the same reasons?

That makes him only half a liar.

What I'm implying is what Obama technically said was not a lie.

Listen to what he said again:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl895

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The reforms I'm proposing

That tidbit right there gives him all the wiggle room he needs...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kallend 1,646]

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Well let me first say the final question looks suspiciously like a plant. What was wrong with the kid who had the mic being the actual final question? Nope wrong kid had the mic.

So you don't have any actual INFORMATION to support of your opinion. Just a prejudiced guess.

Kinda like rushmc's posts.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[downwardspiral 0]

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Well let me first say the final question looks suspiciously like a plant. What was wrong with the kid who had the mic being the actual final question? Nope wrong kid had the mic.

So you don't have any actual INFORMATION to support of your opinion. Just a prejudiced guess.

Kinda like rushmc's posts.

No... more like Obama. You remember right? "The police acted stupidly."

Seriously tho.... is proclaiming "YOU CAN'T PROVE IT" all you got?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[wmw999 2,146]

The only one who can prove it is the kid, and there are plenty of people who will disbelieve him if he says what they don't want him to.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[livendive 8]

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Right or wrong, none of that makes what Obama said a lie, or what Joe Wilson said the truth.

Blues,
Dave

No answer from you then. Noted

My post addressed the topic of this thread, which is Joe Wilson calling Obama a liar during a joint session. It appears that Joe's claim was false. That's not to say Obama has never lied, but that he was not lying by making the statement in question.

Blues,
Dave

No, Wilsons claim is true. If he was lieing why would the house and senate defete bills aimed only at excluding those being talked about.

And until Obama pukes up some detail HE cant make the claim that he is not offering them as much

Please try to follow along.

Obama said that his reforms will not give insurance to illegal aliens.
The fact of the matter is that his reforms will not give insurance to illegal aliens.

In other words, he was telling the truth, and whether or not illegal aliens get insurance from other sources doesn't change that. Do you have a passage from the proposal that supports your claim & counters the text previously provided several times in this thread? Please note that I'm not asking for your deductions, beliefs, or sound-bites you heard on the radio, I'm asking for an actual proposal that supports your claim. The other side has provided as much and you have not.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)