kallend 1,623
quade 3
QuoteQuoteQuoteThe 43rd Administration is either guilt of malfeasance on a massive scale or of conspiracy to start a war for profit motives. Either way, they're huge fuck-ups.
Yes, it might have even been both. I'll concede that.
But why are you so willing to believe that the 44th Administration couldn't possibly do anything like that?
Because he thinks there are only two sides in politics, and if you don't have a (D) after your name, you must have an (R). And if you didn't like Bush, then of course, you must love Obama. No room for shades of gray--it's all or nothing, black or white, love or hate.
Tom, if you're going to oversimplify my views on the world to the point where no discussion is possible, the fault doesn't lay with me . . . it's you.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
turtlespeed 212
QuoteQuoteQuoteThe Afghan war was the direct result of 9/11 and was pretty much everyone's choice. If GWB hadn't lost focus and gone off on his silly deceptive tangent in Iraq, we wouldn't be having such a tough time in Afghanistan now.Quote
were only haveing a tough time in Afghanistan is because were to worried on what people will think of us and not letting the soliers do there job the wayits men to be done. Theres so many restrictions and regulations now its like we agreed to have a handycap so the other side has more of a fighting chance.
When we had the Taliban on the run in 2002, Bush let them escape and regroup. That was the best opportunity we had, and it was lost.
Who is "We"?
The coalition of nations fighting the Taliban, led by the USA.
Are you having a hard time with words this week? Perhaps you should stick to Bonfire, you relate better there.
Defending its decision not to commit forces to the Tora Bora campaign, members of the Bush administration - including the president, the vice president and Gen. Tommy Franks - have continued to insist, as recently as the last presidential campaign, that there was no definitive information that bin Laden was even in Tora Bora in December 2001. "We don't know to this day whether Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora," Franks wrote in an Oct. 19, 2004, Op-Ed article in The New York Times. Intelligence assessments on the Qaeda leader's location varied, Franks continued, and bin Laden was "never within our grasp." It was not until this spring that the Pentagon, after a Freedom of Information Act request, released a document to The Associated Press that says Pentagon investigators believed that bin Laden was at Tora Bora and that he escaped.
No - I simply wanted you to clarify. It was probably arrogant of me to presume you were speaking of only the American people. I just didn't want any confusion derived from you lumping yourself in with our lot.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
QuoteIf the President and Congress were from opposite camps (i.e. McCain was President), I suspect we'd have seen a lot more criticism of the Afghan escalation strategy.
Not from me you wouldn't. The war started there, progressed well for a bit, then was practically abandoned in favor of sending an exponentially larger number of resources to an elective/premeditated war. Now it's smoldered into a much more serious problem. Abandoning that reality is not really an option. In so many ways were are much worse off than we were 8 years ago. It's going to take a while to fix the mess. I may not agree with some of the tactics of the Afghan campaign but I think quitting is a recipe for disaster.
What I don't understand is why the Republicans completely abandoned the near decade long chant about the "war on terrrrr". Now that someone with a "D" is in charge they want to "cut and run". They also spout the necessity to work hard for what you want, get an education, be responsible and civically active, but when Obama wants to use those terms they lock their kids at home and grab pitchforks and torches.
This is a sad period in American history. I've had enough for a while. Going to throw myself out of a plane.
QuoteWell we all like to blame the Republicans or the Democrats but it is my opinion that we are all at fault for what happened over the last 8 years. And by "we" I mean the American people.
Until WE decide to take responsibility for OUR actions then nothing will change regardless of which party is in power.
But hey football season starts this week, hockey is in 4 weeks, and Piggly Wiggly has a sale on cake so fuck it.
What he said. We, collectively, are responsible for the actions of our government. Individually, some of us are more culpable than others (e.g. by supporting any particular politician), but we collectively share the blame. If you voted for a politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit you made a mistake, then try to not repeat it. If you didn't vote for the politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit that you could have done more to prevent it and try harder next time. Either way, we're not special flowers exempt from responsibility for our collective actions. Yes, I'm partially responsible for everything George Bush did, John Rich is partially responsible for everything Barack Obama is doing, and vice versa.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
quade 3
QuoteQuoteThe 43rd Administration is either guilt of malfeasance on a massive scale or of conspiracy to start a war for profit motives. Either way, they're huge fuck-ups.
Yes, it might have even been both. I'll concede that.
But why are you so willing to believe that the 44th Administration couldn't possibly do anything like that?
If one "side" in these politics can be "evil," isn't the whole system flawed?
I don't think the entire Republican point of view is "evil." I think when people hold that sort of viewpoint, no discussion is even vaguely possible.
I do think that there are a number of people on the Republican side that aren't looking out for the average American citizen, but are specifically looking out for the interests of some multi-national corporations.
This is exactly what Eisenhower (a Republican), warned about in his famous 1961 farewell speech about the military industrial complex.
He was on the inside and saw exactly how things were beginning to form.
Are there Republicans that aren't tied to this? Sure. Absolutely. A lot of them are good people.
Are there people willing to put the financial interests of creating wars over the well being of Americans. Sadly, I think yes. Do I think they conspired to create 9/11? No. That's lunacy. I do think they're opportunists and people that are willing to exploit a situation for financial gain once it's created though.
Flip the argument over to the 44th Administration. As far as I can see, the only motive they have is to try to fix the situations that the 43rd broke.
Are there some that might have some ulterior motive? Maybe. Find them and point them out if you see them. So far I see no connection between the 44th Administration and a financial incentive to continue any war.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
turtlespeed 212
QuoteQuoteWell we all like to blame the Republicans or the Democrats but it is my opinion that we are all at fault for what happened over the last 8 years. And by "we" I mean the American people.
Until WE decide to take responsibility for OUR actions then nothing will change regardless of which party is in power.
But hey football season starts this week, hockey is in 4 weeks, and Piggly Wiggly has a sale on cake so fuck it.
What he said. We, collectively, are responsible for the actions of our government. Individually, some of us are more culpable than others (e.g. by supporting any particular politician), but we collectively share the blame. If you voted for a politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit you made a mistake, then try to not repeat it. If you didn't vote for the politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit that you could have done more to prevent it and try harder next time. Either way, we're not special flowers exempt from responsibility for our collective actions. Yes, I'm partially responsible for everything George Bush did, John Rich is partially responsible for everything Barack Obama is doing, and vice versa.
Blues,
Dave
I can see where you come to that conclusion. But that is like saying that Farmer McNasty is partially responsible for Hookey McSwoopy landing off on his farm.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
QuoteQuoteQuoteWell we all like to blame the Republicans or the Democrats but it is my opinion that we are all at fault for what happened over the last 8 years. And by "we" I mean the American people.
Until WE decide to take responsibility for OUR actions then nothing will change regardless of which party is in power.
But hey football season starts this week, hockey is in 4 weeks, and Piggly Wiggly has a sale on cake so fuck it.
What he said. We, collectively, are responsible for the actions of our government. Individually, some of us are more culpable than others (e.g. by supporting any particular politician), but we collectively share the blame. If you voted for a politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit you made a mistake, then try to not repeat it. If you didn't vote for the politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit that you could have done more to prevent it and try harder next time. Either way, we're not special flowers exempt from responsibility for our collective actions. Yes, I'm partially responsible for everything George Bush did, John Rich is partially responsible for everything Barack Obama is doing, and vice versa.
Blues,
Dave
I can see where you come to that conclusion. But that is like saying that Farmer McNasty is partially responsible for Hookey McSwoopy landing off on his farm.
Did Farmer McNasty have a say in spotting the load?
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
turtlespeed 212
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell we all like to blame the Republicans or the Democrats but it is my opinion that we are all at fault for what happened over the last 8 years. And by "we" I mean the American people.
Until WE decide to take responsibility for OUR actions then nothing will change regardless of which party is in power.
But hey football season starts this week, hockey is in 4 weeks, and Piggly Wiggly has a sale on cake so fuck it.
What he said. We, collectively, are responsible for the actions of our government. Individually, some of us are more culpable than others (e.g. by supporting any particular politician), but we collectively share the blame. If you voted for a politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit you made a mistake, then try to not repeat it. If you didn't vote for the politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit that you could have done more to prevent it and try harder next time. Either way, we're not special flowers exempt from responsibility for our collective actions. Yes, I'm partially responsible for everything George Bush did, John Rich is partially responsible for everything Barack Obama is doing, and vice versa.
Blues,
Dave
I can see where you come to that conclusion. But that is like saying that Farmer McNasty is partially responsible for Hookey McSwoopy landing off on his farm.
Did Farmer McNasty have a say in spotting the load?
Blues,
Dave
No.
Did Swoopy have had a say in the local zoning laws.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell we all like to blame the Republicans or the Democrats but it is my opinion that we are all at fault for what happened over the last 8 years. And by "we" I mean the American people.
Until WE decide to take responsibility for OUR actions then nothing will change regardless of which party is in power.
But hey football season starts this week, hockey is in 4 weeks, and Piggly Wiggly has a sale on cake so fuck it.
What he said. We, collectively, are responsible for the actions of our government. Individually, some of us are more culpable than others (e.g. by supporting any particular politician), but we collectively share the blame. If you voted for a politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit you made a mistake, then try to not repeat it. If you didn't vote for the politician who did/is doing something bad, man up and admit that you could have done more to prevent it and try harder next time. Either way, we're not special flowers exempt from responsibility for our collective actions. Yes, I'm partially responsible for everything George Bush did, John Rich is partially responsible for everything Barack Obama is doing, and vice versa.
Blues,
Dave
I can see where you come to that conclusion. But that is like saying that Farmer McNasty is partially responsible for Hookey McSwoopy landing off on his farm.
Did Farmer McNasty have a say in spotting the load?
Blues,
Dave
No.
Did Swoopy have had a say in the local zoning laws.
He did if he lives there.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
Darius11 12
QuoteI don't think the entire Republican point of view is "evil."
I don’t think they are all evil either.
Howvere no matter what news I watch fox or CNBC and every thing in between I see the same thing garbage being spewed from their mouths, with zero substance. I am just sick of it.
How many times can you be wrong and not reevaluate your views? How do you (the reps.) have such a selective memory that they want to pretend all this shit just happened.
The cost of the FALSE war would have been more then enough to save us from the financial collapse and to help pay for health care or one of the many other things we need. Like a tax refund.
Guess what the war was false. When you stand at the UN and say eminent danger and your wrong you fucked up. That’s not up for the reps decide if they fucked up the reason they gave was NOT TRUE.
What about the first bail out? Bush did that one and they did it in a way where they had ZERO overset or influence.
How can you sit there and support that yet show nothing but negativity for the guy who inherited this mess?
I don’t get it.
Our taxes paying for Iraq didn’t get all their panties in a bunch and all the people like my self who stood against the war were called Traitors. On what planet do you get more pissed about taxes being spent to save your own people from sickness, then taxes being spent to kill people including our troops for a false war.
I mean what the fuck.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Darius11 12
QuoteBecause this isn't Iran.
John I am glad you know this is not Iran good to see your geography skills have improved a little bit.
Let me know if you need anymore help, and good to see that you have nothing to add as usual other then some comment about the country I was born.
I can introduce you to people born in other countries who disagree with your views as well.
Then you can say this is not “insert country of origin here”
Let me know i am here to help
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Darius11 12
QuoteWhat he said. We, collectively, are responsible for the actions of our government
I don’t agree.
I think the people who were so sure yet had no reason to be, the people who shut down the voices of reason by calling them traitors, and the ones who blindly supported the Iraq war are a lot more responsible then the ones screaming don’t.
That’s a huge part of where my anger comes from. Their ignorance, and unwillingness to listen has led to lives lost and money spent. They need to look at themselves and understand that yes what they supported was wrong, and ended up costing many lives and insane amounts of money.
Sorry this is the real wo4rld your actions every thing you do has consequences, and just letting them slide because we want to pretend we live in happy land will not cut it. There will always be a next time and I pray the next time they don’t just spew the same garbage and maybe just maybe even listen.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
QuoteQuoteWhat he said. We, collectively, are responsible for the actions of our government
I don’t agree.
I think the people who were so sure yet had no reason to be, the people who shut down the voices of reason by calling them traitors, and the ones who blindly supported the Iraq war are a lot more responsible then the ones screaming don’t.
That’s a huge part of where my anger comes from. Their ignorance, and unwillingness to listen has led to lives lost and money spent. They need to look at themselves and understand that yes what they supported was wrong, and ended up costing many lives and insane amounts of money.
Sorry this is the real wo4rld your actions every thing you do has consequences, and just letting them slide because we want to pretend we live in happy land will not cut it. There will always be a next time and I pray the next time they don’t just spew the same garbage and maybe just maybe even listen.
Can you really absolve your entire party of any responsibility with evidence or are you just towing (or is it toeing?) the party line? Tankbuster's video link was pretty telling and is how I remember it.
www.FourWheelerHB.com
QuoteCan you really absolve your entire party of any responsibility with evidence or are you just towing (or is it toeing?) the party line? Tankbuster's video link was pretty telling and is how I remember it.
Thank you. And furthermore,
How insane are these cats who think that someone can predict the future? Especially politicians. Had they searched the entire country and found no WMDs - but decided to go anyhow? Pretty tough to do, so they had to go on SHs past history, etc. If FDR had struck pre-emptively at the Japanese fleet late in 1941, Pearl Harbor might have been prevented, and he would have been lambasted by the doves because he got us into the war. But how do we know that? Had we left SH to continue defying the UN, and continue to develop weapons, you might have seen a dirty nuke in Times Square a year into our patient wait.
Hmmm.. we need Michael J Fox and that Professor dude.
The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.
kallend 1,623
QuoteIt was probably arrogant of me to presume you were speaking of only the American people. I just didn't want any confusion derived from you lumping yourself in with our lot.
Oh, I don't know. When my SON wrote to me from his US Army base in IRAQ, he addressed his letters to an Illinois address and the USPS managed to deliver them to me.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Ah ha! Ask for the Professor dude and POOF, he shows up!
The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.
quade 3
QuoteAh ha! Ask for the Professor dude and POOF, he shows up!
My understanding was that only happened if you said his name three times into a mirror at mid-night.
Hmmm, learn something new every day.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteAh ha! Ask for the Professor dude and POOF, he shows up!
My understanding was that only happened if you said his name three times into a mirror at mid-night.
Hmmm, learn something new every day.
Wow, you did not know you click your heels three times
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
quade 3
QuoteQuoteQuoteAh ha! Ask for the Professor dude and POOF, he shows up!
My understanding was that only happened if you said his name three times into a mirror at mid-night.
Hmmm, learn something new every day.
Wow, you did not know you click your heels three times
Sorry, Dorothy, I don't cast my spells that way.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
When we had the Taliban on the run in 2002, Bush let them escape and regroup. That was the best opportunity we had, and it was lost.
Who is "We"?
The coalition of nations fighting the Taliban, led by the USA.
Are you having a hard time with words this week? Perhaps you should stick to Bonfire, you relate better there.
Defending its decision not to commit forces to the Tora Bora campaign, members of the Bush administration - including the president, the vice president and Gen. Tommy Franks - have continued to insist, as recently as the last presidential campaign, that there was no definitive information that bin Laden was even in Tora Bora in December 2001. "We don't know to this day whether Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora," Franks wrote in an Oct. 19, 2004, Op-Ed article in The New York Times. Intelligence assessments on the Qaeda leader's location varied, Franks continued, and bin Laden was "never within our grasp." It was not until this spring that the Pentagon, after a Freedom of Information Act request, released a document to The Associated Press that says Pentagon investigators believed that bin Laden was at Tora Bora and that he escaped.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.