riddler 0 #26 August 24, 2009 Quote>but is the call for athiests to rise up realistic? The Tamil Tigers did it. This article says that the Tamil Tigers are secular. That's different than atheist. QuoteThe Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam is a secular organization, regarding the religious beliefs of its members as private matters Although in these days of fear-mongering governments, it's hard to imagine a terrorist organization that does not espouse a particular brand of religious ideology (typically Islam). I'm sure that most of the suicide bombers probably believed in some sort of afterlife.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,146 #27 August 24, 2009 In the late 60's and early 70's there were plenty of non-religious terrorists. Most of the ones I'm familiar with were more communistic in their belief (e.g. Red Brigades, Baader-Meinhof, Carlos the Jackal), but they were quite definitely not religious. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #28 August 24, 2009 Some people will always find ways to be assholes, they'll just fly a different flag. The flag could be religion, or communism, or racism, or atheism, or whatever. When people want to be assholes & cause trouble, they'll pick up whatever flag suits their fancy. The poster who talked about the supposed suffering caused by religion failed to mention the suffering removed by religion, ie, religious workers who work tirelessly to help the poor, the hungry, and the homeless. But they don't make good news copy, so we don't hear so much about them. The poster also talked about 9/11 & other things caused by fundamentalist extremists. He didn't mention that fundamentalist extremism has been widely denounced by many more mainstream religious leaders, including the Pope. So you've got religion coming out AGAINST the very things the poster was complaining about. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Will_Evo 0 #29 August 25, 2009 QuoteSome people will always find ways to be assholes, they'll just fly a different flag. The flag could be religion, or communism, or racism, or atheism, or whatever. When people want to be assholes & cause trouble, they'll pick up whatever flag suits their fancy. The poster who talked about the supposed suffering caused by religion failed to mention the suffering removed by religion, ie, religious workers who work tirelessly to help the poor, the hungry, and the homeless. But they don't make good news copy, so we don't hear so much about them. The poster also talked about 9/11 & other things caused by fundamentalist extremists. He didn't mention that fundamentalist extremism has been widely denounced by many more mainstream religious leaders, including the Pope. So you've got religion coming out AGAINST the very things the poster was complaining about. I don't understand how the suffering I mentioned is supposed? I have been to the middle east, I have seen the people who live without running water, reliable power grids etc.. for no reason other than they are living in a religious war zone. Those countries are where civilization began, and unfortunately where it stopped. Yes religion does good, they help the poor, feed the hungry, help the homeless, but I think it is more disturbing that people think we need religion to contain those traits. Why do you need religion to feel sympathy, or pain, or any other emotion? Are you saying that I am not capable of compassion? Why put up with the bad for something religion is not exclusive to? Yes I talked about 9/11 because it was the result of religious extremism, but you seem to think I am only concerned with Christianity. No matter what the pope denounces, an extremest muslim does not care. Also what does it matter what a man made religious leader says? Where in the bible does it talk about a pope? The pope can say whatever he wants about his religion, but it doesn't change the fact that in his bible, his god condones things like slavery, murder, death by stoning, death by fire etc. Religion is not a good thing, history proves that fact time and time again. it doesn't matter what good comes out of religion, because that good is not exclusive to religion. People can feed the hungry, help the homeless etc... without religion, to think otherwise is just another problem with the reason behind religious people's train of thought. Another example is Stem cell research. The research nearly guarantee's cures or medical advances in many different life changing illness, it has the promise to bring to millions of people, a better more healthy enjoyable life. But Christians(although not the only ones, but the vast majority) would call that research immoral. They claim that using a 5 day old embryo(which by the way contains 70-100 cells, less than that of a fly's eye) is immoral, but somehow are able to completely shut out the millions of people who would benefit. Doesn't that seem backwards to you? Like taking a 180 degree turn in the opposite direction of progress? It's this train of thought I find disturbing and dangerous among religious followers, and a reason I don't sit quietly. -Evo -EvoZoo Crew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #30 August 25, 2009 QuoteYes religion does good, they help the poor, feed the hungry, help the homeless, but I think it is more disturbing that people think we need religion to contain those traits. Why do you need religion to feel sympathy, or pain, or any other emotion? Are you saying that I am not capable of compassion? You bring up some excellent points. You don't need religion to do good things. But by the same argument, you don't need religion to do bad things either. Religious people on the whole are out there volunteering & doing a lot more good than bad, but the ones who are doing good don't get much press. When confronted with this fact, you argue that religion isn't an important factor when the religious do what is good, but you turn around and claim that religion IS an important factor when other "religious" people do what is bad. That is inconsistent. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 August 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteYes religion does good, they help the poor, feed the hungry, help the homeless, but I think it is more disturbing that people think we need religion to contain those traits. Why do you need religion to feel sympathy, or pain, or any other emotion? Are you saying that I am not capable of compassion? You bring up some excellent points. You don't need religion to do good things. But by the same argument, you don't need religion to do bad things either. Religious people on the whole are out there volunteering & doing a lot more good than bad, but the ones who are doing good don't get much press. When confronted with this fact, you argue that religion isn't an important factor when the religious do what is good, but you turn around and claim that religion IS an important factor when other "religious" people do what is bad. That is inconsistent. there is a segment of society that is fanatics and dangerous and do bad things. I suspect without religion, they'd find something else to be fanatics about. maybe global warming, enviromentalism, abortion, AADs and RSLs, 45 degree rules, CrW, public health care, profiteering, prohibition. I'm more worried about political fanatics than religious fanatics, but not thrilled with either. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frequentfaller 0 #32 August 25, 2009 athieism or agnostic isn't drilled into your head from birth. say your bedtime prayer, pray before you eat, bless people when they sneeze, sit on satans lap ask for toys. easter (druid) bunny? hide the eggs? what the hell does that have to do with christ? then you get to certain age and are told "don't believe in that satan clause or druid bunny crap. thats for kids! but that make believe man in the clouds is real! believe it and you will live a great life forever. dont believe it and you will be tortured forver. but the catch is, I'm not going to give you ANY proof. ever." so, most people will think logically about it. "I really dont believe in any of that afterlife stuff, but I better follow the rules in case it is real. because if its not real I'll be dead just the same, but if it is real, i'd rather be in the clouds!" playing harps? bottom line most people are just hedging their bets. you cant organize a movement around that. maybe a bowel movement. without the punishment clause religion would fade away fast. Born ok 1st time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Will_Evo 0 #33 August 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteYes religion does good, they help the poor, feed the hungry, help the homeless, but I think it is more disturbing that people think we need religion to contain those traits. Why do you need religion to feel sympathy, or pain, or any other emotion? Are you saying that I am not capable of compassion? You bring up some excellent points. You don't need religion to do good things. But by the same argument, you don't need religion to do bad things either. Religious people on the whole are out there volunteering & doing a lot more good than bad, but the ones who are doing good don't get much press. When confronted with this fact, you argue that religion isn't an important factor when the religious do what is good, but you turn around and claim that religion IS an important factor when other "religious" people do what is bad. That is inconsistent. Good point, but you seem to be assuming I am again only speaking about Christianity. Muslim extremist don't do those good things, and they certainly don't have the same sense of morality we do. So then how does your point about the good apply? Point is, people are going to do good without religion, but they are not going to become religious martyrs for their god if religion doesn't exist. Nor will they oppose scientific research because their god says its immoral. -EvoZoo Crew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #34 August 25, 2009 Quote there is a segment of society that is fanatics and dangerous and do bad things. I suspect without religion, they'd find something else to be fanatics about. maybe global warming, enviromentalism, abortion, AADs and RSLs, 45 degree rules, CrW, public health care, profiteering, prohibition. I'm more worried about political fanatics than religious fanatics, but not thrilled with either. Fanaticism will always be a factor, but if there were no religion there would be far less and it would be less dangerous. A "45 degree ruler" would not blow themselves up thinking they are going to paradise. Interesting you mention political fanaticism. How many of those fanatics believe what the believe so intently based on religion?Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #35 August 25, 2009 >Fanaticism will always be a factor, but if there were no religion there would >be far less and it would be less dangerous. A "45 degree ruler" would >not blow themselves up thinking they are going to paradise. Perhaps. But again, the Tamil Tigers, a non-religious organization, INVENTED suicide bombings. So I wouldn't place any bets on that "45 degree ruler" avoiding suicide bombings just because he doesn't have a place with 72 virgins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 August 25, 2009 QuoteFanaticism will always be a factor, but if there were no religion there would be far less and it would be less dangerous. good for you - stating personal opinion as if it were fact..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #37 August 25, 2009 QuoteInteresting you mention political fanaticism. How many of those fanatics believe what the believe so intently based on religion? you mean like the 'religion' of global warming the 'religion' of free healthcare I'd say there a ton of political viewpoints with a "religious" ferver ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #38 August 26, 2009 Quote>Fanaticism will always be a factor, but if there were no religion there would >be far less and it would be less dangerous. A "45 degree ruler" would >not blow themselves up thinking they are going to paradise. Perhaps. But again, the Tamil Tigers, a non-religious organization, INVENTED suicide bombings. So I wouldn't place any bets on that "45 degree ruler" avoiding suicide bombings just because he doesn't have a place with 72 virgins. These Tamil Tigers? http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869501,00.html QuoteIn 1972, the Sinhalese-controlled Sri Lankan government declared Sinhala and Buddhism the official language and religion. The Tamils, who practice Hinduism and have their own language, took this action as an affront, and Vellupillai Prabhakaran founded the Tigers soon after.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #39 August 26, 2009 Quote Quote Fanaticism will always be a factor, but if there were no religion there would be far less and it would be less dangerous. good for you - stating personal opinion as if it were fact..... When nearly every war in the history of the world can be traced to some sort or religious difference/conflict... Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #40 August 26, 2009 Quote bottom line most people are just hedging their bets. you cant organize a movement around that. maybe a bowel movement. without the punishment clause religion would fade away fast. This sounds like the athiest skydiver who still says a prayer before going out the door "just in case",or Woody Allen having a spare pair of underwear packed in his coffin "just in case".Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #41 August 26, 2009 The athiest movement will only get stronger with time, and at some point idetifying as an athiest will be the norm and the believers will get the raised eyebrow. Mankind has worshipped some type of god (gods) for thousands of years, and yet science has only really been around for a few hundred to offer a viable alternative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #42 August 26, 2009 Athiests-A group of people praying there is no eternal accountability.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #43 August 26, 2009 Quote When nearly every war in the history of the world can be traced to some sort or religious difference/conflict... right, with religion being the "excuse", but not the real underlying cause (Causes - 1 - we need your resources, so we'll take them - we'll make up an excuse later to placate the simpletons. 2 - we need to defend ourselves from some real or perceived threat to our resources. We'll make up an excuse later to placate the simpletons. 3 - there really isn't a 3) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frequentfaller 0 #44 August 26, 2009 what about these? they dont fall under 1 or 2. The Crusades French Wars of Religion Thirty Years War Taiping Rebellion Second Sudanese Civil War Indo-Pakistani Partition of 1947 Indian Rebellion of 1857 Yellow Scarves Rebellion Sri Lankan Civil War Jewish-Roman Wars Arab-Israeli War Sikh uprising (1982-91) Saxon WarsBorn ok 1st time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #45 August 26, 2009 Quote* Atheism in itself is a paradox: believing in doubt. This requires more intelligence to grasp as questioning is harder than just believing. I try to avoid the word "belief" in this context. While I suspect some things, and consider others highly unlikely, my "beliefs" are only those that I have direct evidence of. And I think it's folly to assert that atheism requires more intelligence than a religious belief system. Religions are largely cultural in nature, whereas intelligence isn't nearly so neatly distributed, thus the two are likely un- or barely related. Anecdotally, I know (and like!) some very intelligent religous people, and either way, an argument that starts with "I'm smarter than you" is unlikely to prevail. Quote* People can't just blindly accept it like they can do with religion. Sure they can, and I know many who do. It takes no greater insight to say "there is no god" than to say "there is a god". Quote* Atheism has no afterlife reward or punishment structure. Agreed, and I consider that a good thing. QuoteHow would you even organize athiests? First, why would I want to? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #46 August 26, 2009 Quotewhat about these? they dont fall under 1 or 2. The Crusades French Wars of Religion Thirty Years War Taiping Rebellion Second Sudanese Civil War Indo-Pakistani Partition of 1947 Indian Rebellion of 1857 Yellow Scarves Rebellion Sri Lankan Civil War Jewish-Roman Wars Arab-Israeli War Sikh uprising (1982-91) Saxon Wars killing off others frees up resources for you and yours - the rest is just rationalization - for all cases, without religious reasons, some other excuse would be used or some other war would still have happened in the time frame - (IMO) Much of this is I completely doubt the sincerity of high level religious leaders (or high level politicians) - I think they just use the established power structure to gain personal power. If there wasn't an existing religion to exploit, they'd have invented their own religion, or become politicians, or something equivalent to exploit the ignorant into a fervor to accomplish their personal aims. I can take Bolas' side as well and likely rationalize a religious cause to every single war in history if you like. I'm just on the other side of that coin in opinion. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frequentfaller 0 #47 August 26, 2009 none of these had anything to do with resources being aquired. surely you heard of the crusades? all about christans slaughtering muslims and others in the holy lands. modern wars with us involved. were/are political, but throughout history there are plenty of holy wars.Born ok 1st time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #48 August 26, 2009 ok - because there was nothing of value in the middle east - the Crusades were about political entities (Roman Catholic high leadership, various Euro governments) trying to expand their power base. Religion was just the tool of the day to get people to sign on. Today it would be about forcing those heathens to purchase Prius's. But the end result would still be a war - the Carsade's and you acknowledge today's wars have a multitude of reasons - I don't think the people of hundreds of years ago were as simpleminded as you think they were I suspect in many history books 200 years from now, Desert Storm 1 will have a religion-only context attached to them. and some future "frequentfaller" will be debating someone on that very subject too - arguing those conflicts were all about religion against another guy arguing that the protection of Kuwait was to ensure an independent oil resource from the other mid-east countries - while another guy argues highly placed politician in several countries were bribed by uber-rich Kuwaiti nobels to save their asses when we all know they only had one reason - sock puppets seeking cotton thread monopolies ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #49 August 26, 2009 Quote Post: what about these? they dont fall under 1 or 2. Arab-Israeli War huh? I can't think of a more applicable 'war' to gain resources. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #50 August 26, 2009 QuoteQuote Post: what about these? they dont fall under 1 or 2. Arab-Israeli War huh? I can't think of a more applicable 'war' to gain resources. good point. getting off of oil-addiction would stop a lot more wars at this point. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
