warpedskydiver 0 #76 August 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteI have to disagree, as applied to this particular case. There are multiple, concurrent philosophical justifications for punishment of criminals. For the most part, they include -Retribution - society expressing its outrage by using a certain measure of, yes, vengeance; Generally, each of these supplies something not fully supplied by the others. And each is considered legitimate, in proper measure, and in proper balance with the other reasons - as well as with other factors such as heinousness of the crime on one hand, and compassion on the other - all of which is decided on a case by case basis. So just as deterrence does not compensate victims, but is still justified, retribution - in proper measure - can also be justified, even though it might not (physically) compensate the victims. It's all about striking a reasonable balance among all of these justifications for punishment. And that's why it can be seen as reasonable to keep someone incarcerated for murder even though doing so won't bring the victim back. Thanks for that. You, Jerry [lawrocket], or someone else so easily could have .... & perhaps, should have ... called me only my earlier apparent equivocation of vengeance with retributive justice on page 1 of this thread. That was an over-simplification on my part. Vengeance is one possible end of the sprectrum of retributive justice not an equivocation. /Marg You must have overlooked my Ghandi statement. The Mahatma was not keen on ducking his responsibility. If he would have done something like that he would have had the conviction and moral fortitude to take his just punishment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #77 August 20, 2009 Quote You must have overlooked my Ghandi statement. Nope, didn't overlook it. Just wasn't relevent, imo, to my false equivocation of retributive justice with vengeance. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #78 August 20, 2009 Agreed, many people however take liberty with Ghandi's statements. He was a man of action even if that action was not violent, or intended to be. He knew they could not win through Violence, but instead chose asymmetric warfare as his tool of choice. IIRC, Sun Tzu said when you are hard appear to be soft, when you are strong in numbers appear to be few. Ghandi chose to appear like silk when in fact he was like a rock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #79 August 20, 2009 His influence abroad is something to behold. QuotePresident Barack Obama said the decision to free the terminally ill bomber on compassionate grounds was a mistake and warned Libya not to give him a hero's welcome. "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #80 August 20, 2009 Quote I prefer approaches that maintain the maximum utility and efficiency. What does that mean?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #81 August 20, 2009 Quote Vengeance is one possible end of the sprectrum of retributive justice not an equivocation. Especially when government doesn't provide justice.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #82 August 20, 2009 Quote Quote How do you reconcile the argument .... al-Megrahi was convicted on offenses not just against individuals from multiple nations but against the nation. My own reconciliation of this argument would be; The nations concerned have themselves reconciled (and let's face it, Lockerbie WAS a state-sponored act) with Libya rejoining the community of nations (and paying compensation for the deaths in Lockerbie, with such compensation received). I understand that Britain and The US now buy Libyan oil and sell Libya goods, including weapons systems. This in itself makes al-Megrahi's continued incarceration an anachronism in that the states concerned have ceased hostilities and resumed normal, even cordial relations. At that point, what purpose is served by continuing to punish a minor government executive for another few months? Interesting argument. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure that reconciliation of states (renormalization of relations) is relevant. The penalties on Libya were enforced: isolation from international community, sanctions, and payments to victims families. As far as I am aware, Mr. al Megrahi was convicted for his actions not the actions of his state. Other examples of individuals tried/on trial or convicted for their actions that are international in scope: Mr. Josef Scheungraber was tried and convicted in April for actions while a Nazi officer. The US & Germany have long reconciled. The US revoked the citizenship of (in 1981) and forcibly deported Mr. John Demjanjuk to Germany this past March with the intention of him facing trial for actions as a Nazi guard. The US has excellent relations with the current government of Liberia, and we have been involved in many of processes (political and legal) regarding the detention, arrest, and trial of Charles Taylor. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #83 August 20, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Why does your jackass Justice Secretary get to decide for everyone?189 of those killed were Americans. Does this mean that UK justice should apply every time a Brit is murdered in the USA? Quote Do you honestly think the Libyans would do the same with Scottish people in the same circumstances? Is bad behavior by one nation an excuse for bad behavior by another? Unles you live in Chicago and are an Obama friend/supporter, if you muder in the 1st degree, you go to prison for life minimum. SO you don't have anything of value to contribute to this thread. OK.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #84 August 20, 2009 QuoteQuote Vengeance is one possible end of the sprectrum of retributive justice not an equivocation. Especially when government doesn't provide justice. To which government are you referring? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #85 August 20, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Why does your jackass Justice Secretary get to decide for everyone?189 of those killed were Americans. Does this mean that UK justice should apply every time a Brit is murdered in the USA? Quote Do you honestly think the Libyans would do the same with Scottish people in the same circumstances? Is bad behavior by one nation an excuse for bad behavior by another? If a terrorist kills over 200 people on American soil and 189 of them are citizens of the UK then yes. They should at least ask for the opinion from the other country. I'm a spiteful bastard so yes it is. They got opinions from the USA. Doesn't mean they had to take notice. Look up "sovereignty".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #86 August 20, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Why does your jackass Justice Secretary get to decide for everyone?189 of those killed were Americans. Does this mean that UK justice should apply every time a Brit is murdered in the USA? Quote Do you honestly think the Libyans would do the same with Scottish people in the same circumstances? Is bad behavior by one nation an excuse for bad behavior by another? Unles you live in Chicago and are an Obama friend/supporter, if you muder in the 1st degree, you go to prison for life minimum. SO you don't have anything of value to contribute to this thread. OK. Just following your lead!!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skittles_of_SDC 0 #87 August 20, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Why does your jackass Justice Secretary get to decide for everyone?189 of those killed were Americans. Does this mean that UK justice should apply every time a Brit is murdered in the USA? Quote Do you honestly think the Libyans would do the same with Scottish people in the same circumstances? Is bad behavior by one nation an excuse for bad behavior by another? If a terrorist kills over 200 people on American soil and 189 of them are citizens of the UK then yes. They should at least ask for the opinion from the other country. I'm a spiteful bastard so yes it is. They got opinions from the USA. Doesn't mean they had to take notice. Look up "sovereignty". Point taken. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #88 August 20, 2009 Quote To which government are you referring? In this case, Scotland.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #89 August 21, 2009 Quote [But then, even a stopped clock is right twice a day Not if it's a digital 24hr one .... just agruing for the sake of it (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 0 #90 August 21, 2009 Quote Quote [But then, even a stopped clock is right twice a day Not if it's a digital 24hr one .... just agruing for the sake of it Yeah my digital clock broke down and displayed 88:88:88, wrong all the time just like a politician. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #91 August 21, 2009 mine said HE:LP (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #92 August 21, 2009 I agree that this was the right thing to do. Especially as there are some major question marks over his guilt. Keeping him in prison would have only been vengence not justice. It would also have cost the British tax payer a fortune as he gets progressivly more ill. Why should the British tax payer have to foot the bill for his medical care and confinement, once he goes into hospital he would take a bed that a British person could have and would required a prison officer to be handcuffed to him 24 hours a day until he died, this would typically keep six prison officers away from their prisons and due to the nature of the crime for which he was found guilty he would almost certainly also require 24 hour armed police protection/guard again costing a fortune and diverting police resources. For all of the above reasons sending him back was not only the humane but the most cost effective thing to do.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #93 August 21, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Ok, tell me what part of my perspective is wrong? Al Megrahi has been released on COMPASSIONATE grounds. It's NOT about insulting the victims families (not all of whom wanted al Megrahi to remain incarcerated). It's about being true to OUR degree of compassion rather than mirroring his. Mike. this dirt bag murdered was to die in prison for his crimes but, because he got a terminal disease they will let him out for compassionate reasons? Fucking god damn idiot stupid IMO!!!!! He should get the same comasiion he showed those on the plane. Stupid liberals who like to feel goodwhat a bunch of shit.... Glad it works for you cause it pisses me off big time that they would do it to begin with and then even worse there are those here that can some how rationalize this kind of behavior. Stupid Compassion my ass..... Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. Apart from the cost of care that the British tax payer would have to have paid which would have been very expensive, we are trying to bring Libyia back into the fold. There has to be some payback for them as a reward for behaving themselves and geting back onside. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the bombing was a act carried out by the Libyian government. There is a lot of doubt that this guy was even the operator who committed the act. If we followed your thinking then all the terrorists in Northern Ireland would still be in prison and the 'troubles' would still be in full swing. Some families quite understanably want vengence but don't get confused between that and justice. A democracy works on the greater good, the families are in the minority, I empathize with them but the greater good in this instance must prevail.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #94 August 21, 2009 QuoteTHINK, dont feel and maybe you might see another perspective Backatcha boyo!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #95 August 21, 2009 Quote>There is no good reason to turn this monster loose. Nor is there any reason to keep him imprisoned as long as he can never do anything like this again (i.e. he is incapacitated by disease and will soon die.) Indeed, turning him loose is cheaper. That's logic. Or you could say "that fucker should rot in a prison cell." That's emotion. >It would not make me feel good. More emotion. It might well make you feel good to see the unpleasant death of another, but that is emotion, not reason. If indeed he even did it in the first place.. http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/hugh-miles-lockerbie-was-it-iran-syria-all-i-know-is-it-wasnt-the-man-in-prison-1206086.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article5058606.ece http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/south_of_scotland/7573244.stm http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5042880.ece http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2068681.0.miliband_has_made_lockerbie_appeal_a_mockery_of_justice.phpWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #96 August 21, 2009 QuoteQuote>There is no good reason to turn this monster loose. Nor is there any reason to keep him imprisoned as long as he can never do anything like this again (i.e. he is incapacitated by disease and will soon die.) Indeed, turning him loose is cheaper. That's logic. Or you could say "that fucker should rot in a prison cell." That's emotion. >It would not make me feel good. More emotion. It might well make you feel good to see the unpleasant death of another, but that is emotion, not reason. Reason comes with justice. Emotion is raised because of not thinking He was imprisoned for life for murder. Regardless of his ilness he should die in prison out of justice for those he murdered and respect for the families still living In the UK the avarage life sentence is 9 years.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #97 August 21, 2009 Quote Why does your jackass Justice Secretary get to decide for everyone?189 of those killed were Americans. Do you honestly think the Libyans would do the same with Scottish people in the same circumstances? Well, the Americans bombed and killed Ghadafi's todler yet he can find it in him to shake the hand of the POTUSWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #98 August 21, 2009 Great series of level headed responses (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #99 August 21, 2009 he's on a roll (great stuff skyrad) stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #100 August 21, 2009 Thanks guysWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
