Home Bible Study Group Illegal?

[rushmc 18]

Quote

marc, don't pick an argument where none exists. i have a feeling you and i actually agree on this.

Sorry, but guns or a bible study, if it's done in the home, then the government can get the fuck out. I was just curious if some of the same people who voted that they shouldn't be able to have a bible study in their home also voted that the SF law about guns locked up at home was unjust. Which would be highly hypocritical.

Now my disclaimer: I am biased in this case, for 3 reasons. 1) I live in San Diego County, 2) I am a follower of Jesus and 3) I have attended weekly bible studies in homes in San Diego County.

From a religious perspective, weekly small groups are more common than you probably think, and many many many of them aren't sponsored by any one church. There is a movement afoot among followers of Jesus to get back to the way things were before "THE CHURCH" took over...which was small groups of believers meeting in homes.

So yes, this affects me personally, if peripherally.

Small groups like this do not surprise me. My dad was very involved and I for one do not reject this. I feel I will someday be in many myself.

I was confused by your question so that is why I posted the "?".

I like discussion. I dont like arguments. I can see how my post may have been seen that way. Sorry.

The gov should stay out. The literal quote is in part, "the goverment shall make no law....." and this has been expanded or connected with the seperation of church and state. If anyone really cares to look at what the founding fathers meant they would see what we have today is not even close to the intent.

I (now that I understand your post) agree with you.

Our government under the current admin and many past, have decided they know what is best for us. They no longer feel they answer to us. And to make this stick they pit left against right and cloud the issues and in an attempt to make us fight amongst ourselves they they (the gov) are the true foe.


Bible study, guns, our bedrooms and other issues are not places our government should be placing themselves into. They do however, by clouding what is really important.

My post here will be cherry picked and not looked at in total (I think you may see what my point is) I will not respond to any of those type of posts as I am very tired of that type debate.

I hope this clears my post up. Sorry if I was not clear.

Marc

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"

Anyone who meets on a regular basis to watch the Chargers play baseball is an imbecile.

Ouch - how embarrassing this must be for John. From a Frenchie, no less.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

just the whole "government telling us what we can and can't do in the privacy of our homes" thing is all....

From a zoning perspective, the part inside the privacy of the home is not really the concern. It's the traffic and parking issues that are raised by running a church within a residence that might be. And in this case, it seems like the problem stemmed from some sort of vehicle collision.

It has nothing to do with guns or right to pray.

[BikerBabe 0]

what's a church?

is the weekly watching of the charger's game on sunday afternoon a church? It fits the same description in regards to street usage and parking as a wednesday night bible study.

I bet people would take serious issue with the neighborhood football-watching party applying for tax-exempt status as a church.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

what's a church?

is the weekly watching of the charger's game on sunday afternoon a church? It fits the same description in regards to street usage and parking as a wednesday night bible study.

I bet people would take serious issue with the neighborhood football-watching party applying for tax-exempt status as a church.

Well, the tax exempt status is part of the equation. Society is subsidizing religion because we believe it contributes to our over all well being. And for many, it is a major or the major social structure they are involved in.

The difference between a weekly football viewing (which rarely is large and at the same place) and a weekly bible study by the leader of a church is that the leader of the church has a church.

[BikerBabe 0]

I think you would be surprised at the sheer number of churches who do not have a church building to meet in. They share with other churches, meet in schools, restaurants, or even nightclubs. Or even homes.

Places they can't just use whenever they want.

All that being said, the number of weekly bible studies in the US is probably a lot larger than you think. It really sounds to me like this neighbor had a bug up his ass about the "church people" meeting and decided to get sue happy rather than resolve a fender bender like an adult...which is exchange insurance info and maybe file a police report and call it a day.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[usedtajump 1]

The very same thing happened in a neighborhood I lived in in the Dallas area about six years ago. About six houses down from us every Wednesday night a couple had a bible study which drew quite a few folks and their cars.

Neighbors (not us) complained about parking violations and the unsightly signs in the yard advertising the bible study and what the agenda would be for the next meeting.

Shortly after complaints were lodged, the city code enforcement shut them down by saying it amounted to running a church in a residential structure which is a zoning and fire code violation.

I personally had no problem with them studying the bible in their home but also had no problem with the city enforcing the law and never felt it was "anti christian".

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[RonD1120 58]

I was saved, that is I knew that I knew I was saved, at Mono Lake in Lee Vining, CA on 16 Mar 81. The sense of love, acceptance, safety and peace of mind was overwhelming. From that moment on I have been compelled to share that experience whenever possible. I have appeared on national and local TV, local radio, ran Bible study groups, had a private Christian counseling practice and started various ministries. The one thing I have had impressed upon me is, you can talk about anything as long as you don't mention Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

There is something about that name.

We may soon be as the first century Christians, underground covert witnesses, drawing half a circle in the sand to see if the other person completes the other half, making the fish symbol.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"

Anyone who meets on a regular basis to watch the Chargers play baseball is an imbecile.

From Murder In The First:

James Stamphill: How do you think the Yankees will do against the Redskins this year?
Henri Young: The Yankees are a baseball team. The Redskins are a football team. Personally, I think the Redskins would kick the shit out of them.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"

Anyone who meets on a regular basis to watch the Chargers play baseball is an imbecile.

Ouch - how embarrassing this must be for John. From a Frenchie, no less.

In the context of the thread, it still would have been humorous had he asked instead, "What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Padres?"

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Quote

what's a church?

is the weekly watching of the charger's game on sunday afternoon a church? It fits the same description in regards to street usage and parking as a wednesday night bible study.

I think the difference lies in organization and common purpose. If you play a little soccer with your kids and friends every Wednesday afternoon, city officials wouldn't have much of a problem with it. You start running a soccer league with regular games in your front yard, now they probably will.

You are quite right in quesitoning where the line is between having bible study meetings and running a church from your house. I don't have the answer, but I would suggest reading the applicable by laws for the community in question.

[funjumper101 15]

Quote

what's a church?

is the weekly watching of the charger's game on sunday afternoon a church? It fits the same description in regards to street usage and parking as a wednesday night bible study.

I bet people would take serious issue with the neighborhood football-watching party applying for tax-exempt status as a church.

At one point the was a "Church of Monday Night Football" that got to a fair size on the east coast.

Contrary to the notion of the "wide open spaces of the west", one of the first things that I thout was weird when I came to California is how small the house lots were, compared to the New England area.

I would be not be too keen on having 15' between my house and my neighbor's when the neighbors have 15-20 people over every week carring on out loud about how great the lord is. Annoying noisy neighbors are annoying noisy neighbors, no matter if the noise is prayer, or loud opera music, or even worse, loud cRAP music.

Contrary to some of the opinions here, this is not a clear cut issue of right and wrong. If you live in a residential neighborhood, you don't have the right to be constantly annoying your neighbors with weekly large gatherings at your place. No matter what the occasion is. Now and then, a gathering should be tolerated.

This is an issue of zoning and parking, along with consideration for your neighbors. It appears that the pastor seems to think that annoying the neighbors is fine, as long as he is doing God's work. I don't consider that to a good example of christian values and morals.

[pirana 0]

Quote

Quote

What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"

Anyone who meets on a regular basis to watch the Chargers play baseball is an imbecile.

I thought I read somewhere they could correct that at birth these days.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[DJL 232]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"

Anyone who meets on a regular basis to watch the Chargers play baseball is an imbecile.

Ouch - how embarrassing this must be for John. From a Frenchie, no less.

In the context of the thread, it still would have been humorous had he asked instead, "What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Padres?"

The results would be the same; lots of praying.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[BikerBabe 0]

hey, views on san diego sports teams aside....

You all seem to think that weekly bible studies are like tent revivals or something.

All the ones i've ever seen or been to are quiet gatherings in homes where people maybe have dinner and then sit around the couches and talk. OOOOOH, big disruption.

Sure, if there's signs and shit all over your yard, that's one thing, because there are probably zoning issues and HOA rules, etc. but if it's just a bunch of friends meeting in the house once a week, i'm not really sure how you can outlaw that. Unless of course we have somehow been transplanted to China...

What if it was just a weekly dinner party? Would there be such opposition? (I highly doubt it)

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Quote

What if it was just a weekly dinner party? Would there be such opposition?

I don't know too many people who hold dinner parties for 10 or 20 people on a weekly organized basis.

The key I think is the organized part. A registered organization is holding regular, organized meetings in a residence. That is where the zoning issues come in, since that is not a regular residential activity.

If you and a couple of friends decide to get together on a weekly basis to discuss Jesus, I don't think that would be an issue.

If you are a leader in an established and registered organization and you direct people to your residence for regular and ongoing activities that fall under that organization, that might become a problem when people complain. Since in most cases that would not be allowed under the residential zoning.

[quade 3]

Quote

I was saved, that is I knew that I knew I was saved, at Mono Lake in Lee Vining, CA on 16 Mar 81. The sense of love, acceptance, safety and peace of mind was overwhelming. From that moment on I have been compelled to share that experience whenever possible. I have appeared on national and local TV, local radio, ran Bible study groups, had a private Christian counseling practice and started various ministries. The one thing I have had impressed upon me is, you can talk about anything as long as you don't mention Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

There is something about that name.

We may soon be as the first century Christians, underground covert witnesses, drawing half a circle in the sand to see if the other person completes the other half, making the fish symbol.

Really? Do you honestly feel that in AMERICA Christians are being hunted down and now have to have an underground movement in order to survive?






Really?!?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,155]

And the problem lies in
a. the fact that there is a continuum rather than a sharp division between "few friends" and "regular organized group"
b. there are humans involved, and some humans interprest situations differently from others

What if some weeks he has 8 people over, and others there are 10, and the dividing line is 10? What if one week he had 15 and the dividing line is 15?

What if one of his neighbors is an asshole who doesn't want anyone parking in front of his house? What if the guy who got the ticket is a difficult neighbor who doesn't mind blocking traffic for the rest of the neighborhood?

Think of the children

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BikerBabe 0]

what if it wasn't a pastor but just a church member who was hosting them? Because, for example, my church has about 15 different small groups that meet at people's house on a weekly basis, but only one pastor.

I guess this whole thread surprises me, since weekly small groups are such a normal thing for me and i see them all the time....i never knew there was such opposition. And the ones i've been to and the others at my church have never had anyone say anything negative about them. And yes, they each have about 10-20 people.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[SkyDekker 1,147]

From a zoning perspective I don't think any of that matters. (It doe smatter with regard to the filing of the complaint obviously)

If a church is holding meetings at a residence in the name of that church, it likely is in violation of the zoning restrictions.

[quade 3]

Quote

I guess this whole thread surprises me, since weekly small groups are such a normal thing for me and i see them all the time....i never knew there was such opposition.

I think you're misreading the entire situation.

I don't think there is any opposition to bible study groups at all.

I DO think there is some legitimate opposition to people that park an excessive amount of cars in an area that was not designed for it, especially when it seems to block assess to other people's use of the street.

In this case, ONE guy went over the top and got the local city government involved.

That's hardly opposition to a bible study group.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Quote

guess this whole thread surprises me, since weekly small groups are such a normal thing for me and i see them all the time....i never knew there was such opposition.

I don't think there is "such opposition". I think the general rules of common curtesy and respect apply. If you don't piss off your neighbours, none of this really matters. If your neighbour is an asshole, or you are an asshole and piss of your neighbour, these things can become issues.

It's not as if the city is going door to door to find out. But when a complaint is received, they have to act on it. The simplest solution would be not to piss of your neigbours.

[wmw999 2,155]

The problem there is that according to some, any meeting of christians is a church, and it's completely unrealistic to say that any meeting of christians must be held in a commercial building.

There's a movement in some denominations of having what are called "house churches" where the meeting is so small that it really is just a small group that gets together; not much different in size from the weekly quilting guild.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Quote

The problem there is that according to some, any meeting of christians is a church, and it's completely unrealistic to say that any meeting of christians must be held in a commercial building.

Actually the "problem", if that is what you want to call it, didn't exist much until Vietnamese Buddhist started moving to the US. They started gathering at "Home Temples" and the neighbours complained about parking and the noise of the chanting.

Many zoning by-laws do not allow private residences to be used for religuous gatherings. When you host organized gatherings in a dwelling on a regular basis, the dwelling has to have certain safety features, egress being one of the more important ones.

Why religuous gatherings are specifically mentioned, I don't know. I have this feeling it may have to do with money...like taxes. To this day I still don't understand why the IRS treats religous non-profit organizations differently from non-religious non-profit organizations.

[BikerBabe 0]

well, either way, i have to wonder: If this had been a weekly sports-watching party, would we even be talking about it now?

Even if one of the semi-buzzed fans hit a neighbor's car, would the neighbor have called the county or handled it like most normal people handle a fender-bender?

Would it even be in the news?

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!