affirmative action

[TheAnvil 0]

Your faith in the ubiquity and omnipotence of the State is showing, I do believe.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[georgerussia 0]

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Ya know doc.. for a supposedly educated person you seem to be a bit clueless of womens issues over the last 50 years....

So maybe 50 years ago it was worth implementing. But is it still true nowadays? Could you provide verifiable evidence? After all, a lot of things have changed in last 50 years.

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w/r/t affirmative action. 50 years ago when I was in school.... 99.9% of women in the health care field were nurses with no hope of ever becoming doctors.

Well, I personally know several nurses (both men and women) who want to be doctors, but cannot make it because of some reason (usually family). And I know some who do not want to be a doctor.

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The fact is.. that even now.. many many people can't even get onto the field to play in the first place.

I really doubt this will change. Obviously we all cannot be just doctors and lawyers.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[dreamdancer 0]

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So foul and fair an argument I have not seen in quite some time.

Do enlighten us, Bill, how you jump logically from my answer to your query to this inane deduction that I believe one race different from the other. I don't follow myself.

The race of slaves is a matter of historical record - and that race differs depending on which slaves and what period of history you examine. Furthermore, I never refer to anyone other than leftists defending AA as 'liars, bigots, and cowards' in any post on AA. Other topics, yes. AA - no.

Let me expound, though I think it obvious.

"You're a racist! you don't support AA!" - typical epithet from the left towards any conservative who doesn't support AA. Sometimes stated differently, but the paraphrased insult in quotes above is always the intent. An absolute lie. Liars lie.

Those espousing the aforementioned lie are quite obstinately devoted to this opinion...check out the definition of bigot. Quite apropos.

Cowards run when faced with something tough...like the fact that AA is racial discrimination, and those who discriminate based upon race are racists by definition.

Liars, bigots, and cowards are EXTREMELY appropriate choices of words when describing that crowd of AA supporters. With regards to those who happen to know history and don't fear to face it...I think not.

But, think as you like. I always do.

a lot of words here denying you are either racist or sexist. you are also not a 'liar, bigot or coward' (but anyone who disagrees with you is).

(do you talk regularly to god - and does she answer back?)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
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[dreamdancer 0]

a white guy and a black guy in some fictional land, apply for a job. upon interview the employer finds that both candidates are exactly equal; same qualifications, same personality etc... the employer is in a quandary. who to hire? the employer decides to do a mental coin 'flip' and thus picks one of the guys. the white guy is hired. is this racism?

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blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[shropshire 0]

No it's not




But, is the employer Black or White? That could colour [sic] some peoples answer.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dreamdancer 0]

a few weeks later the employer is put in the same situation. exactly equal qualifications from both a white and a black worker. he does another mental coin 'flip'. the white guy is hired. is this racism?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[shropshire 0]

Probably not ... maybe he didn't like the one guys tie.

Flip a coin... what's the odds of heads? 50/50
Flip it again... what's the odds of heads? 50/50
same every time BUT if it always comes up heads.. you might start thinking that the coin is unbalanced... same with the guys mental flip.... Doesn't mean/prove that it he's racist but it plants a seed of doubt - that's all.


CAVEAT : this is only one persons' WASp perspective.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dreamdancer 0]

over the course of several months the employer makes the same hiring decision in the same circumstances - black and white equally qualified - ten times in a row. is this racism?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[TrophyHusband 0]

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the usual practice is for minorities and women to not even be considered... based on the good ole boy who does not want to work with women.. or with minorities.

that may have been true back in the 60's, but its no longer "usual practice" to only hire white males. i'm not saying it doesn't happen, its just no longer standard practice. this country has made such great progress in its attitudes about women and minorities in a relatively short time. those that fought for equal rights have won. attitudes get better with every generation. you should stop fighting the war and celebrate the victory.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[JackC 0]

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over the course of several months the employer makes the same hiring decision in the same circumstances - black and white equally qualified - ten times in a row. is this racism?

In this case you could well suspect the employer to be guilty of having a racial bais (aka racism). The way to fix this is to address the racism, not impose a rule that says in the event of two candidates being equal in all but race, you must employ people of race X over people of race Y, for that would also be racism.

[dreamdancer 0]

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The way to fix this is to address the racism.

how? - the racism cannot be proved, only suspected.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[shropshire 0]

What Race is the interviewer?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JackC 0]

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The way to fix this is to address the racism.

how? - the racism cannot be proved, only suspected.

I'm no lawyer but I think the principle of innocent until proven guilty would apply. But it would be wrong impose a racially biased law because you suspect people of racial bias. The law cannot be above the law. If racism is illegal, racist laws must also be illegal no?

[dreamdancer 0]

for this mental 'thought experiment' it doesn't matter what colour the employer/interviewer is (shall we say yellow?)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[shropshire 0]

Actually it could matter ...because if the selected person was a different race then there is less likelehood of a suggestion of racism.

If the interviewer constantly selected someone of the same race as him/her self then there is an increased 'chance' of a racism call.

Personally, there sounds like there is not enoughj information to make a call.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dreamdancer 0]

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The law cannot be above the law. If racism is illegal, racist laws must also be illegal no?

that's why affirmative action is not racist
now, how are you going to solve the problem of the employer/interviewer in my scenario? who meanwhile (while you're busy 'solving' peoples minds of racism) has chosen to hire another ten white guys (that's twenty now and twenty still unemployed black guys).

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[dreamdancer 0]

it might matter as to motive but whether racism is being expressed it makes no difference. say in the cubicle next to this employer/interviewer there is another (it's a large corporation) black employer/interviewer who has, in similar circumstances, also hired twenty white workers in a row. is this racism?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[rehmwa 2]

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...because if the selected person was a different race then there is less likelihood of a suggestion of racism.

absolutely not true

your personal bias is "coloring" you opinions

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shropshire 0]

in and of it's self - I'd say No.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JackC 0]

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The law cannot be above the law. If racism is illegal, racist laws must also be illegal no?

that's why affirmative action is not racist

WTF? I thought this conversation had some basis in logic, I guess I was wrong.

Rule 1) it is illegal to discriminate based on race
Rule 2) People of race A are to be preferentially employed over people of race B.

You're telling me that rule 2 above doesn't contravene rule 1?

[dreamdancer 0]

no preferential treatment here - only mention of 'take into account'. do you have any specific examples to illustrate your position?

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The term affirmative action refers to policies that take gender, race, or ethnicity into account in an attempt to promote equal opportunity. The focus of such policies ranges from employment and education to public contracting and health programs (such as breast or prostate cancer screenings). The impetus towards affirmative action is twofold: to maximize the benefits of diversity in all levels of society, and to redress disadvantages due to overt, institutional, or involuntary discrimination.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[dreamdancer 0]

but if the black employer/interviewer hired twenty black workers in a row that would definitely be racism - yes?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[Icon134 0]

your hypothetical senario is just that hypothetical... yes if something like that happened then there might be something to it...

besides a "mental coin flip" is no more random then picking the individual... now if the interviewer laid out the selections on a "table" without knowing which was which and made a coin flip where the the left application always was picked on a heads and the right application was always picked on a tails... and he still ended up getting the the white person or black person every time then nope... there is nothing inappropiate about it... but the odds are not in favor of that happening...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[kbordson 8]

actually, you shouldn't HIRE based on someones race.

As per post 35 above where I quoted and linked to the gov web site

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The regulations at 41 CFR 60-2.12(e), 60-2.30 and 60-2.15, specifically prohibit quota and preferential hiring and promotions under the guise of affirmative action numerical goals. In other words, discrimination in the selection decision is prohibited.

What the employer has to do is increase the work applicant pool to include a wider selection of applicants. Not hire more [insert race/sex/....]





-and jeannie, Thank you so much. But please tell me SPECIFICIALLY what I am thanking you directly for so that when I give a prayer of thanksgiving tonight to my God of choice that I can give specifics. Ohh.... and having been a nurse myself, can you tell me exactly what was wrong with being a nurse? Why do you think it's better to be a doctor? I had my personal reasons for going back to school, but you seem to have a bias there. I'm just curious as to why you seem to think nurses are inferior.

[JackC 0]

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no preferential treatment here - only mention of 'take into account'.

What do you mean by "take into account"?

Surely taking something into account implys that it must weigh on your decision somehow. Isn't the whole point of racial equality the idea that race doesn't influence your decision?

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do you have any specific examples to illustrate your position?

There was talk of implementing a positive discrimination plan to boost ethnic minority recruitment in the UK police service. I don't know whether the plan was ever implemented.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6572897.stm
Under such a plan, if two job candidates met the required standards, the candidate whose ethnicity is under-represented in the force would be selected.

I can see why this might be an appealing way to get greater ethnic recruitment, but it seems like it would be at the expense of implementing a racially biased recruitment policy. I'd prefer to see a strict meritocracy independent of race or gender.