affirmative action

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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no-one has yet come up with a single example of affirmative action that has adversely affected them.

Back when I started looking for a permanent job, I discovered that I was essentialy unemployable in my native Canada because of affirmative action. At the time I was 34 years old, with a Master's degree, PhD, two years of postdoctoral experience, and 12 published research papers, which in ordinary times would have at least made me competitive for a teaching/research position at a university. However, both Ontario and British Columbia (the two biggest potential job sources) had elected NDP governments that brought in very strong affirmantive action programs. At one point Ontario universities and colleges were not allowed to even accept applications from white male candidates if any qualified women/visible minorities had applied for the position, until 50% of their faculty were non-white-male. In addition, the Canadian federal government started a program that gave universities a 5-year grant to cover salary and a research expenses for new female faculty, so understandably universities were only interested in hiring women. Female faculty could be a freebee for the university for the first 5 years whereas they would have to eat the cost of new male faculty.
What did I do? I spent 4 more years in post-doc land, published a lot of papers, moved into a new research area, and eventually got a faculty job in the States. It took more time than I had anticipated, but I've got a great job (most of the time) working with people I really like, while living in a place with a better climate than 98% of Canada (including year-round skydiving). It turned out OK for me, I just had to work harder for it. Friends (male) from my grad school days either did the same (and some have since gone back to Canada to take positions at universities), or they turned to industry or government jobs, but none are starving.

Despite that, I still think there is a place for affirmative action, in certain very limited situations. Some inequities are so culturally entrenched they need a kick to get them reset.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[georgerussia 0]

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Just so there's no confusion on this point, I'm talking about the situation in 1965, not today.

Ok, it's more reasonable then but I still don't think it's necessary. Of course I didn't live at that time, and it's hard to get the overall spirit from the books, so maybe things were much worse than I think, but in any case people personal opinion is not altered by making laws. Look on those who hated gays and was explaining it by pointing out the gay sex was illegal - even though gay sex is legal now, it didn't change their opinion, they just brought one more excuse. You cannot change the people, but it is not necessary. Things will change with time, when younger generations grow up.

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The fact that one group of people still had 95% of the wealth, owned 95% of the businesses, etc shouldn't have been dismissed with "This world was never a perfect place, and I'm afraid it will never be."

This fact is not dismissed, I would just consider it irrelevant. Wealth is not, and never was something equally distributed, nor it is always proportional to the amount of work done. I may be working harder than Bill Gates in ninety eighties, but never get even close to what he made.

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The fact that human enterprises can not be perfect is no excuse to not even try.

The problem with this definition is that "perfect" definition is not shared. For example, a hard-working person would define "perfect enterprise" as "everyone is paid according to the efforts put into the job", and a lazy person would define "perfect enterprise" as "everyone should be paid the same amount no matter how good or bad you are on the job".

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I think a better analogy to the ones you presented would be the police tracking down some kidnappers, arresting them and hauling them off to jail, and leaving the kidnapping victim behind duct-taped to a chair and with a hood over his head.

This is not good analogy because the police force is paid to enforce the law, which includes correcting violations of the law. I believe this part is covered in training manuals, which describe what police officer should and should not do, and if they do it, this is part of their job. They, however, are not going to give the victim a monetary compensation for damages, and may even not give him a home ride.

It would, however, be strange to require an uncle of the kidnapper, or any same-race person, to come there and free the victims, what do you think?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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a national health service and a large increase in the minimum wage would be a good start

Should we also get a Queen?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[shropshire 0]

I would think that you have more than enough queens already ...

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[wmw999 2,149]

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You cannot change the people, but it is not necessary. Things will change with time, when younger generations grow up.

By making certain actions illegal, you remove some of the example from the young people, which makes them more likely to change.

As long as it was OK for people to not hire minorities, their children figured it was OK too, because that's what they saw. The older people's opinions really didn't change, just their actions. But those actions are powerful examples to their children.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[georgerussia 0]

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As long as it was OK for people to not hire minorities, their children figured it was OK too, because that's what they saw. The older people's opinions really didn't change, just their actions. But those actions are powerful examples to their children.

That's exactly what I meant. The law will not change most of the people, who grew up knowing it was a good practice to discriminate. But in a long run it will be fixed without any extra efforts besides enforcing the law.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kbordson 8]

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I think a better analogy to the ones you presented would be the police tracking down some kidnappers, arresting them and hauling them off to jail, and leaving the kidnapping victim behind duct-taped to a chair and with a hood over his head. After all the job of the police is to arrest bad guys, and they did that. Surely the victim will work himself loose and find his way home in time on his own. If not, well too bad. Life's not fair, and it never will be. If the police have to rescue every kidnapping victim where's the end, next you'll be wanting them to pull stuck kittens out of trees!

Don

I think that is a fairly good analogy.

But realize that the argument today is talking about the children of that kidnap victim demanding to be rescued - claiming that they are sitting in the same chair and that the same kidnappers are still out there. (personally... some still are, but overall the condition is NOT as it was 40 years ago)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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But realize that the argument today is talking about the children of that kidnap victim demanding to be rescued - claiming that they are sitting in the same chair and that the same kidnappers are still out there.

I agree with you. As I wrote some posts ago, this long after the fact race- and gender-based handouts are actually corrosive (in my opinion). No-one benefits when the genuine achievements of hard-working women and minorities can be dismissed on the (mistaken) grounds that they had their success unfairly handed to them. It's even more destructive when people can excuse (to themselves and to others) their own lack of success by claiming they weren't allowed a chance to succeed because women and minorities are handed first place in line, instead of placing the blame where it really belongs, which is often their own lack of effort or ability. Also I'm just disgusted by the Jackson/Sharpton race-baiting always-the-victim "the Man is keeping us down" crap. It's sad, really, as they were such leaders during the civil rights struggle, but they've become a drag on American society by refusing to acknowledge the progress that has been made. I think Bill Cosby has a much healthier take on things.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[dreamdancer 0]

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a national health service and a large increase in the minimum wage would be a good start

Should we also get a Queen?

i would advise against it
however, never let it be said that the mad old biddy isn't doing her bit to redress centuries of discrimination and privilege

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The overhaul of the royal rules of succession to end discrimination against women and Roman Catholics has been backed by David Cameron as well as Gordon Brown.

The likelihood of reform moved closer yesterday when the Conservative leader welcomed the opening of talks between Downing Street and Buckingham Palace on amending the 308-year-old legislation. Mr Brown will raise the issue with Commonwealth leaders in the autumn with a view to winning their approval for the historic change.

Mr Cameron said yesterday he would like to see the rules of succession rewritten, although he stressed that any changes should not be rushed.

He said: "It does not make sense in the 21st century to say that men have priority over women when it comes to inheriting the throne. It does not make sense to say that the king cannot marry a Catholic. So we do need change but we have to recognise that the Queen is not just our queen. She is also the Queen of all the Commonwealth countries that have her as their head of state, so this is not an easy change to make. There is a lot of talking and listening that has to be done first."

The support of all major parties for rewriting the 1701 Act of Settlement has pushed the subject up the political agenda, although they agree reform is likely to take years to complete.

The Act states that a monarch, as the head of the Church of England, loses their right to the throne if they marry a Catholic or convert to the faith.

It also spells out the principle of "primogeniture", which gives male heirs precedence over daughters in succeeding to the crown. The issue would be spotlighted if Prince William becomes a father and his eldest child is a girl.

During Mr Brown's visit to South America he disclosed that he had discussed the subject with the Queen. He said: "I think in the 21st century people do expect discrimination to be removed and they do expect us to be looking at all these issues."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/royal-succession-tories-back-end-of-discrimination-1656037.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[happythoughts 0]

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But it's something more for that Brit to try to knock on the US for.

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By the end of the 17th century, England led the world in Naval shipping and the trafficking of slaves, and the financial well-being of Britain’s colonies, navy and merchant shipping industry became dependent on the slave trade via the The Middle Passage.

The entire article details the wealth building of many
English families.

Africans were involved in the slave trade, some to this day.
Countries had a long history of selling prisoners of war as slaves.
The English became their newest customers.

If the British are concerned about racial injustice,
it is time that they stepped forward to address a problem
that established the wealth of some in their country.

(Between slavery and drug dealing in China, there's
not a lot of moral high ground to criticize others.)

[dreamdancer 0]

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But it's something more for that Brit to try to knock on the US for.

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By the end of the 17th century, England led the world in Naval shipping and the trafficking of slaves, and the financial well-being of Britain’s colonies, navy and merchant shipping industry became dependent on the slave trade via the The Middle Passage.

The entire article details the wealth building of many
English families.

Africans were involved in the slave trade, some to this day.
Countries had a long history of selling prisoners of war as slaves.
The English became their newest customers.

If the British are concerned about racial injustice,
it is time that they stepped forward to address a problem
that established the wealth of some in their country.

(Between slavery and drug dealing in China, there's
not a lot of moral high ground to criticize others.)

well said

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding