affirmative action

[TheAnvil 0]

He won't answer. He doesn't like what the answer says about himself.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

I don't deny anything of the sort, and think that portion of history disgraceful. I don't think I'd ever support racial discrimination as a tool or remedy for past injustices of any sort. Such things further the moronic notion of identifying someone by their race.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[dreamdancer 0]

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still no examples of your 'facts'

You don't need examples, just a dictionary.

here's the definition of affirmative action:

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The term affirmative action refers to policies that take gender, race, or ethnicity into account in an attempt to promote equal opportunity. The focus of such policies ranges from employment and education to public contracting and health programs (such as breast or prostate cancer screenings). The impetus towards affirmative action is twofold: to maximize the benefits of diversity in all levels of society, and to redress disadvantages due to overt, institutional, or involuntary discrimination.

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[dreamdancer 0]

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I don't deny anything of the sort, and think that portion of history disgraceful.

it wasn't so long ago to even call 'history'...

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African Americans mounted resistance to lynchings in numerous ways. Intellectuals and journalists encouraged public education, actively protesting and lobbying against lynch mob violence and government connivance in that violence. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), as well as numerous other organizations, organized support from white and black Americans alike. African-American women's clubs, such as the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching, raised funds to support the work of public campaigns, including anti-lynching plays. Their petition drives, letter campaigns, meetings and demonstrations helped to highlight the issues and combat lynching. In the Great Migration, extending in two waves from 1910 to 1970, 6.5 million African Americans left the South to go to northern and midwestern cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

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[GeorgiaDon 340]

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I don't deny anything of the sort, and think that portion of history disgraceful. I don't think I'd ever support racial discrimination as a tool or remedy for past injustices of any sort. Such things further the moronic notion of identifying someone by their race.

I'd also agree that I'd prefer that society could be color/gender blind and operate as a strict meritocracy. However the problem I have with "I don't think I'd ever support racial discrimination as a tool or remedy for past injustices of any sort" is that it leaves the victims of that discrimination so far behind it'll take many many generations to catch up. Where's the fairness in saying, "well now that one side has all the marbles maybe now we'll start to play fair? Oops, look, you still lose!" There isn't any totally "fair" way to address the situation, but I think just saying "sucks to be you, maybe one day we'll let a few of your kind into the good jobs/schools doesn't cut it either.

As I said in and earlier post, though, I think set-asides/affirmative action should have been only a temporary measure, and I think that by now they may do more harm than good. I personally do think they were needed at one time, though.

What sort of remedy would you support as a remedy for past injustices? Again, just curious.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[jerryzflies 0]

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.

What sort of remedy would you support as a remedy for past injustices? Again, just curious.

Don

Half the distance to the goal, and automatic first down. Figuratively speaking, of course.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[Coreece 190]

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Half the distance to the goal, and automatic first down.

I thought the "half distance" rule was if they were within 10-15 yards of the goal...I don't think the blacks were that close...hell, they weren't even on offense.

Either way, they sure as hell got the ball now.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[georgerussia 0]

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Out of curiosity, do you deny that non-whites in the southern US were disadvantaged in education and employment under Jim Crow laws?

Yes, they were. This world was never a perfect place, and I'm afraid it will never be.

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Once those laws were abolished, what if anything do you think would have been appropriate to do to address the impact of Jim Crow laws on non-whites?

Nothing needed to be done, everything would be fixed in time. This was and has been standard practice for ages. When women got their right to vote, nobody got a right to cast two votes as compensation for missed opportunities. When interracial marriage ban was lifted, there was no "equal marriage opportunity" act which would provide extra benefits to interracial couples to address the impact of the ban. And when Superior Court told the states to abolish anti-sodomy laws in 2003, it didn't establish any sex quotas like "5% of all sex in State must be gay sex" to address the impact of anti-gay laws.

If you think there is need to compensate for past mistakes, then how would you justify it? Those who voted before 1965 are now at least 61 year old, i.e. minority. Younger generations did not vote, why should they take responsibility for the decisions they had no influence upon?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[dreamdancer 0]

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Nothing needed to be done, everything would be fixed in time.

if nothing needed to be done we would still be living under the power of kings and own slaves
no-one has yet come up with a single example of affirmative action that has adversely affected them.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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no-one has yet come up with a single example of affirmative action that has adversely affected them.

Oh, is that what you're looking for now? It's hard to keep track with the wandering about. But I'm game for this one.

For the 1st-3rd, 6th, and 7th-8th grades, I was bused all over San Diego and Long Beach to satisfy a particularly retarded integration plan.

[dreamdancer 0]

details on why the scheme was implemented and how you feel you were adversely affected please

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[kbordson 8]

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Nothing needed to be done, everything would be fixed in time.

if nothing needed to be done we would still be living under the power of kings and own slaves

Ummmm. Don't you still have a monarchy?

So. Once you bounce the queen down and give all those without that tie to royalty special bonuses that the family had but they didn't, ....

EVERYBODY gets million dollar weddings televised.

EVERYBODY gets ponies and castles.

How about complaining about the disparity in your own backyard? Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black here.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Ummmm. Don't you still have a monarchy?

i'm a republican

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[kbordson 8]

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Ummmm. Don't you still have a monarchy?

i'm a republican

Oh, that's right. You're dancing in dreams.

Well. When you wake, then we'll discuss.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Oh, that's right. You're dancing in dreams.

Well. When you wake, then we'll discuss.

few more facts for you as you leave

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The actual phrase "affirmative action" was first used in President John F. Kennedy's 1961 Executive Order 10925 which requires federal contractors to "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin." The same language was later used in Lyndon Johnson's 1965 Executive Order 11246.

In 1967, Johnson expanded the Executive Order to include affirmative action requirements to benefit women.

Other equal protection laws passed to make discrimination illegal were the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Title II and VII of which forbid racial discrimination in "public accommodations" and race and sex discrimination in employment, respectively; and the 1965 Voting Rights Act adopted after Congress found "that racial discrimination in voting was an insidious and pervasive evil which had been perpetuated in certain parts of the country through unremitting and ingenious defiance of the Constitution."

Much of the opposition to affirmative action is framed on the grounds of so-called "reverse discrimination and unwarranted preferences." In fact, less than 2 percent of the 91,000 employment discrimination cases pending before the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission are reverse discrimination cases. Under the law as written in Executive Orders and interpreted by the courts, anyone benefiting from affirmative action must have relevant and valid job or educational qualifications.

http://www.now.org/nnt/08-95/affirmhs.html

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[georgerussia 0]

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if nothing needed to be done we would still be living under the power of kings and own slaves

Worth explanation. When slaves were freed, there was no affirmative action like giving each black person a temporary white slave for "compensation". You consider it bad practice?

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no-one has yet come up with a single example of affirmative action that has adversely affected them.

I would say it positively affects me in terms of employability comparing to someone who's "protected" by affirmative action. This is because a potential employer knows that I got my degree because of my skills and efforts, and not because of my eye color, dick size or something else I was born with.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[dreamdancer 0]

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I would say it positively affects me in terms of employability comparing to someone who's "protected" by affirmative action. This is because a potential employer knows that I got my degree because of my skills and efforts, and not because of my eye color, dick size or something else I was born with.

so no real affect on you (apart from some twice removed 'employability' perception). meanwhile you're going to go around telling everyone else that it was their 'eye colour or dick size' that got 'them' their job

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[georgerussia 0]

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so no real affect on you (apart from some twice removed 'employability' perception).

No, no real effect on me. But it doesn't make it right. Gay marriage ban has no real effect on me either, and I'm still against it.

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meanwhile you're going to go around telling everyone else that it was their 'eye colour or dick size' that got 'them' their job

And imagine how bad would someone feel who was smart and worked hard to get their job, when people around him think the reason he got the job was not his skills (something a smart person would be proud of), but his eye color (something a smart person would not be proud of)?

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[dreamdancer 0]

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And imagine how bad would someone feel who was smart and worked hard to get their job, when people around him think the reason he got the job was not his skills (something a smart person would be proud of), but his eye color (something a smart person would not be proud of)?

but that's not the case with affirmative action (which only levels the playing field) so no need to imagine
(in the meantime anyone who didn't quite 'make the grade' has the handy excuse of blaming someone else)

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[georgerussia 0]

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but that's not the case with affirmative action (which only levels the playing field) so no need to imagine

So how else would you "level the playing field" without making some pressure on employers to prefer one employee over another because of specific race or gender? Because if you do, the situation will be exactly as stated above. And if you don't, how exactly could you "level" it?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[dreamdancer 0]

a national health service and a large increase in the minimum wage would be a good start

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[JackC 0]

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a national health service and a large increase in the minimum wage would be a good start

WTF has that got to do with afirmative action?

[kbordson 8]

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a national health service and a large increase in the minimum wage would be a good start

WTF has that got to do with afirmative action?

Nothing at all.

But it's something more for that Brit to try to knock on the US for. (Of course, he doesn't realize that we ALREADY have the minimum wage here... and even started it WELL before they did AND with the Medicare/Medicaid component of health care there is a GOOD portion of coverage for those that can't afford it... but lets not confuse the topic of affirmative action with actual facts now)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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If you think there is need to compensate for past mistakes, then how would you justify it? Those who voted before 1965 are now at least 61 year old, i.e. minority.

Just so there's no confusion on this point, I'm talking about the situation in 1965, not today. I don't think affirmative action is appropriate today, indeed it's likely to be destructive in some ways, including some you've noted. That we have gotten to this point is, I think, due in part to past efforts to reverse some of the damage that had been done by our shameful history. However two generations ago, more needed to be done to break down the institutionalized barriers to non-whites than just whitewash history and pretend that everybody suddenly had equal opportunity. The fact that one group of people still had 95% of the wealth, owned 95% of the businesses, etc shouldn't have been dismissed with "This world was never a perfect place, and I'm afraid it will never be." The fact that human enterprises can not be perfect is no excuse to not even try.

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Nothing needed to be done, everything would be fixed in time.

I think a better analogy to the ones you presented would be the police tracking down some kidnappers, arresting them and hauling them off to jail, and leaving the kidnapping victim behind duct-taped to a chair and with a hood over his head. After all the job of the police is to arrest bad guys, and they did that. Surely the victim will work himself loose and find his way home in time on his own. If not, well too bad. Life's not fair, and it never will be. If the police have to rescue every kidnapping victim where's the end, next you'll be wanting them to pull stuck kittens out of trees!

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[wmw999 2,136]

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Nothing needed to be done, everything would be fixed in time.

My father (who is now 91) lived through all that time. His opinion at the beginning was exactly the same as yours. "Why are they making all that fuss, things are changing fast enough..."

He said that it took about 5 years of learning how different things really were to understand that they weren't changing fast enough, and another 5 to understand that it really does take deliberate action. He was there, even if on the outside (i.e. he is white, and well-educated). You weren't there. Ya know, I'll go with him.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)