Should scientific meeting organizers boycott Louisiana?

[billvon 2,435]

>He never said take the science out only add to.

In 1998, the Discovery Institute (the primary force behind creationism in schools here in the US) wrote a document that described their goals. From that document:

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We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of design theory into public school science curricula. The attention, publicity, and influence of design theory should draw scientific materialists into open debate with design theorists, and we will be ready. With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of materialism and the Darwinist theory that supports it in the sciences.

Our governing Goals:

To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.
=================

So the goal is not to supplant science, but replace it.

>because our Governor representing the will of the people wants creation taught in school.

I have absolutely no problem with that. Teach science in science class, teach creationism in religious history class. Cover Norse, American Indian, Hindu and Muslim creationism as well, to give students a wider view.

>If your going to teach a bunch of scientific theories and we have shown
>there are many being taught.

Yep. We should teach science in science class. Creationism isn't science.

>We also teach kids how to put on condoms . . .

Yep. Might just keep them alive. In terms of health, that's more important than teaching them to wash their hands after they poop.

>Then why can't we teach them what over 88% of the population
>believes which is divine design . . .

Again, no problem at all. Teach them whatever religious theories you like in religion class.

>Why don’t we teach them tolerance for Christians, Muslims and other
>religions . . . .

No problem. Teach the creation theories for all religions.

>So if scientist are so closed minded that they don’t want anything but
>their theories taught then I think we can get by with out them here.

Sure. And the next time you get sick, go to a priest and ignore all that science-based medicine. The next time you want to fly somewhere, buy a magic carpet and get by without all those engineers who design airplanes. The next time it gets dark out, make candles and show Maxwell who's boss. That will show those closed-minded scientists that you don't need them!

[Amazon 7]

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I've enjoyed the jousting with science, so it brings me back to the original subject should scientific meeting organizers boycott Louisiana because our Governor representing the will of the people wants creation taught in school. He never said take the science out only add to. Here's my take and many others here feel the same. If your going to teach a bunch of scientific theories and we have shown there are many being taught. We also teach kids how to put on condoms and allow them to talk to counselors without parental knowledge. We teach them that homosexualality is an alternate life style. Then why can't we teach them what over 88% of the population believes which is divine design this includes all or most religions that believe in God. Why don’t we teach them tolerance for Christians, Muslims and other religions and of course creation is a theory with a lot of evidence we would only have more rounded people coming out of school. For you Constitution fans the 1st amendment says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibititing the free exercise thereof.
So if scientist are so closed minded that they don’t want anything but their theories taught then I think we can get by with out them here. States do have rights and if the rest of the country is going to boycott a state for exercising its rights how narrow minded is that? I didn’t know we had to agree on everything to be a United States!

I was educated in PAROCHIAL schools it was a VERY good education. We were taught the sciences.. and we also got classes in history and biblical history. We had classes in comparitive religions where we actually read the books of other religions. To this day I think that in the PUBLIC schools that religion.. ANYONES religion is not to be taught. If you want to teach religion or religious principles go to your CHURCH or go to a private parochial school. I believe that having the state mandating teaching of any religion is just one step to having a Church of America .... check out the REASON that the founding fathers put in the separation of church and state. Read the long sordid and VERY bloody English history to get an idea of why our country has freedom of religion that it has.

On the flip side maybe you would support a few pogroms and we could get rid of all these fucking jews.. and the fucking papists and all these assinine muslims that want to convert everyone or kill them. We also have WAY too many buhddists who dont even believe in the same god....taoists....animists....pagans... hell light the fucking fires lets burn some disbelievers... and heretics.

[DanG 1]

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By all means, when someone disagrees with you act like a three year old and BOYCOTT them!

Louisiana argues that it is their right to teach religion in science class, then why should they be upset when scientists exercise their rights not to go there?

Or do you only believe people have rights when they support your views?

- Dan G

[VTmotoMike08 0]

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If your going to teach a bunch of scientific theories and we have shown there are many being taught.

I totally agree, when are we going to start including this theory of intelligent design:
http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

I assure you there is as much evidence to support my theory as there is yours.

[quade 3]

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For you Constitution fans the 1st amendment says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibititing the free exercise thereof.

Nobody is prohibiting the free exercise of religion (kids are free to pray to Tecumseh for good grades any time), however, government mandated teaching of ID in a public classroom certainly does establish a religious belief.

The concept fails on Constitutional grounds. I don't see how there's any other way to look at it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

Louisiana argues that it is their right to teach religion in science class, then why should they be upset when scientists exercise their rights not to go there?

Or do you only believe people have rights when they support your views? ***

Actually what I said was they do have the right in fact I said if that's what they want to do that's fine we don't need them here!

[cloud9 0]

***On the flip side maybe you would support a few pogroms and we could get rid of all these fucking jews.. and the fucking papists and all these assinine muslims that want to convert everyone or kill them. We also have WAY too many buhddists who dont even believe in the same god....taoists....animists....pagans... hell light the fucking fires lets burn some disbelievers... and heretics.***

Amazon I have no Idea where this came from, but it has nothing to do with anything I said.

[DanG 1]

Yup, you said that. I didn't reply to you.

I will however, reply to your characterization of people who disagree with you as "you Constitution lovers."

Are you saying you don't love the Constitution? Is there now something evil and "liberal" about loving the Constitution?

- Dan G

[quade 3]

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Actually what I said was they do have the right in fact I said if that's what they want to do that's fine we don't need them here!

That's awesome.

You're communicating by typing on a computer hooked to the internet. Packets of information are traveling at the speed of light around the world. Satellites 22,300 miles above the earth look down and warn of hurricanes saving millions of lives. Imagine for a second what the impact of hurricane Katrina would have been if there had been no advance warning and evacuation.

Meanwhile, you're saying you don't need scientists.

Good luck with that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

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Sure. And the next time you get sick, go to a priest and ignore all that science-based medicine. The next time you want to fly somewhere, buy a magic carpet and get by without all those engineers who design airplanes. The next time it gets dark out, make candles and show Maxwell who's boss. That will show those closed-minded scientists that you don't need them!

Bill don't forget what I already said science has it's place and it's not all theory of course we use it everyday. However what I am saying is if scientist don't want to come to Louisiana because they disagree with us then so be it, we don't want enyone here that doesn't want to be here.
By the way I recently had a back surgery fused L4-L5 and L5-S1 and I'm in a back brace so there's not much I can do besides hang out on the internet. The science used on my surgery great stuff. The people that prayed for me though it all great stuff!

Here's a little science for yoU Bill
Statistics were acquired from the prayer and placebo groups both before and after prayer, until the patients were discharged from the hospital. There were no statistical differences between the placebo and the prayer groups before prayer was initiated. The results demonstrated that patients who were prayed for suffered "less congestive heart failure, required less diuretic and antibiotic therapy, had fewer episodes of pneumonia, had fewer cardiac arrests, and were less frequently intubated and ventilated." Statistics demonstrated the the prayer group had a statistically significantly lower severity score based upon the hospital course after entry (p < 0.01). Multivariate analysis of all the parameters measured demonstrated that the outcomes of the two groups were even more statistically significant (p < 0.0001). In science, the standard level of significance is when a "p value" is less than 0.05. A value of 0.01 means that the likelihood the result is because of chance is one in 100. A p value of 0.0001 indicates that in only one study out of 10,000 is the result likely to be due to chance. Table 2 from the study is reproduced below. The remarkable thing which one notices is that nearly every parameter measured is affected by prayer, although individually many categories do not reach the level of statistical significance due to sample size. However, multivariate analysis, which compares all parameters together produces a level of significance seldom reached in any scientific study (p < 0.0001). The author points out that the method used in this study does not produce the maximum effect of prayer, since the study could not control for the effect of outside prayer (i.e., it is likely many of the placebo group were prayed for by persons outside of the study). It is likely that a study which used only atheists (who had no Christian family or friends) would produce an even more dramatic result. However, since atheists make up only 1-2% of the population, it would be difficult to obtain a large enough sample size.

[cloud9 0]

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you Constitution lovers."

Are you saying you don't love the Constitution? Is there now something evil and "liberal" about loving the Constitution?

It's amazing to me I can put something in writing and a few post down be misquoted. What I said was for you Constitition Fans of which I am one! I swore to protect the Constitution as a Marine and as a police officer and I have a copy of it sitting on my desk! I love my country and have served it in several capacities.

[billvon 2,435]

>Bill don't forget what I already said science has it's place . . . .

Agreed 100%.

>However what I am saying is if scientist don't want to come to Louisiana
>because they disagree with us then so be it, we don't want enyone here that
>doesn't want to be here.

No problem at all. But keep in mind that even if you 'invite' them to not come, you are still relying on them every second of the day.

>By the way I recently had a back surgery fused L4-L5 and L5-S1 and I'm in a
>back brace so there's not much I can do besides hang out on the internet. The
>science used on my surgery great stuff. The people that prayed for me though it
>all great stuff!

That's great! Glad things went well.

>Here's a little science for you, Bill

Here's a little more:

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Power of prayer flunks an unusual test
Large study had Christians pray for heart-surgery patients

updated 1:23 p.m. PT, Thurs., March. 30, 2006

NEW YORK - In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
================

Does that mean that prayer doesn't work? Not at all. If prayer settles your mind, and helps you relax, it might well make you live longer. But it also indicates that if your heart is acting up, it's far better to go to a doctor than to a priest.

[cloud9 0]

Proof science has many theories!

[cloud9 0]

I agree 100%

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Lets take a look at how the power of prayer has helped these people:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[jakee 1,259]

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He never said take the science out only add to.

What is gained by taking science and adding bullshit?

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If your going to teach a bunch of scientific theories and we have shown there are many being taught.

Again, in English?

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Then why can't we teach them what over 88% of the population believes which is divine design this includes all or most religions that believe in God.

Because there's no evidence for it. It's not science.

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Why don’t we teach them tolerance for Christians, Muslims and other religions

Don't you do that anyway? Regardless, that's got nothing to do with teaching creationism.

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and of course creation is a theory with a lot of evidence

that doesn't get taught because it's a lie. Creationism isn't a theory with lots of evidence. It's not a theory. It's not even a hypothesis. There is no evidence.

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So if scientist are so closed minded that they don’t want anything but their theories taught then I think we can get by with out them here.

What else but science should be taught in a science classroom. Oh, and if you want to get by without scientists, I'm sure you won't mind getting by without the products of science. Start by getting rid of your computer and internet connection, eh?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Amazon 7]

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***On the flip side maybe you would support a few pogroms and we could get rid of all these fucking jews.. and the fucking papists and all these assinine muslims that want to convert everyone or kill them. We also have WAY too many buhddists who dont even believe in the same god....taoists....animists....pagans... hell light the fucking fires lets burn some disbelievers... and heretics.***

Amazon I have no Idea where this came from, but it has nothing to do with anything I said.

It goes to past performance... state run religions... I am not willing to trust... they have TOO many centuries of abusing those who do not believe as THEY do.

The founding fathers at the Constitutional Congress.. understood the prediliction of the church to interfere in affairs of government and having a state religion was untenable.

I am old enough and was in a protestant parochial school at the time of the Kennedy 1960 election... I remember all too well the fears of protestants who feared how the POPE was going to control Kennedy.

[cloud9 0]

Ok I'm truly getting to the end of this conversation. I put in writing some thoughts, theories and facts. Go back up and read I did not say I did not believe in science! In fact what I said was it has its place. I also did not say to teach Creation in a science class, I said in school where there are many subjects taught. As far as creation being BS you are certainly entitled to your opinion however there is a lot of evidence, the bible, as well as many other books that have been recognized as history there are also the dead sea scrolls and I'm not going to go any further with someone that ignores what I actually say and states that I've said things I have not. What I am saying and will stand on is science is a lot of theory, I quoted some great scientist in above post, Bill quoted some others they disagree with one another. Scientist do not agree on many things they are theories, that doesn’t stop our educational system from teaching them. I was taught many things in school that have since been proven to be wrong!

[cloud9 0]

I understand what you’re saying now and am no youngster myself at 54. Our framers were concerned with the state establishing a religion no doubt. However they were not concerned with interjecting religion in our government. The start of everyday the framers hammered out the constitution was with a prayer. The bill of rights shows clearly they believed that all men were created (not evolved) with certain rights under God. So while they certainly didn't want the government to establish a religion they didn't want the right to practice to be prohibited. In 1960 I was only 6 but I have read about the fears of a catholic president. So valid points no doubt.

[Amazon 7]

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Ok I'm truly getting to the end of this conversation. I put in writing some thoughts, theories and facts. Go back up and read I did not say I did not believe in science! In fact what I said was it has its place. I also did not say to teach Creation in a science class, I said in school where there are many subjects taught. As far as creation being BS you are certainly entitled to your opinion however there is a lot of evidence, the bible, as well as many other books that have been recognized as history there are also the dead sea scrolls and I'm not going to go any further with someone that ignores what I actually say and states that I've said things I have not. What I am saying and will stand on is science is a lot of theory, I quoted some great scientist in above post, Bill quoted some others they disagree with one another. Scientist do not agree on many things they are theories, that doesn’t stop our educational system from teaching them. I was taught many things in school that have since been proven to be wrong!

If you are going to demand that creationism be taught in our public schools.. which creation myths will be taught.???

Every religion has a creation story of how the Earth and man came to be. Are you willing to force everyone to be taught YOUR particular story.. and not teach all the others??

[cloud9 0]

Well since 88% of Americans are in stated to be Christian and our kids should have an understanding of their neighbors that would be a good start. Yes I do think that all mainstream religious theories should be taught, as well as Mr. Darwin’s theory and by the way after reading a lot of what he said I think today he would tell you there is still not even close to enough proof to call it dare I say gospel.
I also think that what the constitution says has been changed in speech to our children over the years. The first amendment as I’m sure you’re aware says congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof. There are schools now where the word God cannot be said. Our framers never intended that and would certainly be offended by what we are doing now I believe. I also don’t think that teaching in a classroom that people believe certain things is in anyway forcing it on them, It’s simply educating. I was taught that certain religions used human sacrifice, it didn’t make me want to build an alter and hunt down some lambs.

[Amazon 7]

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Well since 88% of Americans are in stated to be Christian and our kids should have an understanding of their neighbors that would be a good start. Yes I do think that all mainstream religious theories should be taught, as well as Mr. Darwin’s theory and by the way after reading a lot of what he said I think today he would tell you there is still not even close to enough proof to call it dare I say gospel.
I also think that what the constitution says has been changed in speech to our children over the years. The first amendment as I’m sure you’re aware says congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof. There are schools now where the word God cannot be said. Our framers never intended that and would certainly be offended by what we are doing now I believe. I also don’t think that teaching in a classroom that people believe certain things is in anyway forcing it on them, It’s simply educating. I was taught that certain religions used human sacrifice, it didn’t make me want to build an alter and hunt down some lambs.

Again. I think if you want YOUR children to be taught YOUR beliefs they need to be taught in your home or in YOUR church.

I do not want to see any kind of religion taught in our public schools. I like keeping the two separate. Teaching just one creation story.. even if its the majority... still forces those who are not of your particular brand of chritianity to be taught YOUR belief... but not theirs.

I like this one...the people who believe this got here THOUSANDS of years before christianity.
http://www.seminoletribe.com/culture/legends.shtml

When the Creator, the Grandfather of all things, created the earth, there were many things he wanted to put there. Birds, animals, reptiles, insects, and many different living things. The Creator did have certain favorite animals. He liked the Panther, Coo-wah-chobee - crawls on four legs, close to the ground. The Panther would sit beside the Creator and He would pet the Panther, over and over, across its long, soft, furry back.

The Creator made sure that certain animals and plants possessed unique healing powers. When the Creator touches certain things longer than normal, His powers automatically go into what He touches. He told Panther, "When it's complete, I would like for you to be the first to walk on the earth. You are majestic and beautiful. You have patience and strength. There is something special about you. You are the perfect one to walk the earth first."

Creator went to work making all sorts of animals and birds. Animals on all fours, animals with hooves, animals with paws, birds with claws, insects, reptiles - why, there was nothing the Creator left out. When the earth was ready, Creator put all the animals in a large shell. He set it along the backbone of the earth - the real high mountains. "When the timing is right," He told the animals, "the shell will open and you will all crawl out. Someone or something will crack the shell and you must all take your respective places on the face the earth." The Creator then sealed up the shell and left, hoping the Panther would be first to come out.

Time went along, and nothing happened. Alongside the shell stood a great tree. As time passed, the tree grew so large that its roots started encircling the shell. Eventually a root cracked the shell. The Panther was patient, which the Creator liked. But, at this particular time, Panther was too patient. The Wind started circling around the crack in the shell, round and round the inside, so vigorously that the crack was made larger.

The Wind, however, remembered that the Creator wished for the Panther to be on earth first. "We will fulfill the Creator's wishes," said the Wind, reaching down to help the Panther take its place on earth.

The Wind was everywhere. The Wind was the air we breathe. After Wind helped the Panther out first, the Panther thanked Wind for the honor. Next to crawl out was the Bird. The Bird had picked and picked around the hole, and, when the time was right, stepped outside the shell. Bird took flight immediately. After that, other animals emerged in different sequences. Bear, Deer, Snake, Frog, Otter. There were thousands of others, so many that no one besides the Creator could even begin to count them all. All went out to seek their proper places on earth.

Meanwhile, as Bird was flying around looking for a place to live on earth, the Creator was watching. He watched each animal and did not intervene, but left the animals on their own. The Creator often allows things to happen along their own sequences. Sometimes a thing must happen on its own merits.

When the Creator saw that all was done, He decided to name the animals and put them into Clans. For being such a good companion, the Creator rewarded the Panther with special qualities: "Your Clan will have the knowledge for making laws and for making the medicine which heals," Creator told Panther. "You, the Panther, will be in possession of all knowledge of different things. The Panther will have the power to heal different ailments and to enhance mental powers."

Creator believed the actions of the Wind were very honorable and noble, so He told the Wind: "You will serve all living things so they may breathe. Without the wind - or air - all will die."

The Bird, for being able to take flight, will be ruler of the earth, said the Creator: "The Bird will make sure that all things are put in their proper places on earth."

So this is how the beginning was made. Some call it the Creation. Though there were many, many animals put on this earth by the Creator, all came to know their proper places on earth.

Today, among the Seminoles and other Indian people, there are ceremonies on the occasion of the greening of the earth. At these ceremonies, you can see the Panther, with brother Wind, mixing the medicines for all people to use.

If you enter the festival grounds and don't know your place, you seek out the head of the Bird Clan - usually a man ranked high within the Clan - and ask where to make your camp. He will ask you "What is your Clan?" If you say "Panther," he will give you a direction and instruct you to seek out the head of the Panther Clan and he will tell you exactly where to sleep.

Stories such as the Creation and many other legends do have important meanings to us. Sometimes, however, interpreting them may confuse us. Seminole, Miccosukees, Creeks, Cherokees, Choctaws, and many other tribes tell tales of Creation. These stories may or from Clan to Clan. For good reason - they all live in different locations on the earth and that has much to do with the way the stories are told.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

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Scientist do not agree on many things they are theories, that doesn’t stop our educational system from teaching them.

Got an example? Better yet, how about several examples. If there are "many things", surely you can think of at least a couple examples, right?

Most things taught is science class rooms are laws, which are theories that have been proven to be true in every circumstance that they have been tested. Things like gravity come to mind.

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I was taught many things in school that have since been proven to be wrong!

I'm sorry that our educational system has failed you.

Furthermore, it would help to avoid writing in fragments if you want to be taken seriously.

[nerdgirl 0]

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I quoted some great scientist in above post, !

Do you understand that what you cited (w/r/t Neandethal DNA) supports evolution?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Hausse 0]

After living in the US for over 2 years, I have to say that if you exclude Louisiana then the international society should exclude the US as a giant part of the population are wacked out religious people (I on purpose don't say Christian because I would like to offend all religious people!)