Partisanship & support of torture

[nerdgirl 0]

Curious if this really does breakdown as a partisan issue across this group.

To avoid the strawman "comfy green cushion" or "Coke & a smile" suggestions, torture (for this poll) includes waterboarding and activities prohibited by

(1) US Army FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation (large pdf file), which states in Chapter 1, under the heading “Prohibition Against Use of Force”

“Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.”

“The psychological techniques and principles outlined should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs. These techniques and principles are intended to serve as guides in obtaining the willing cooperation of a source. The absence of threats in interrogation is intentional, as their enforcement and use normally constitute violations of international law and may result in prosecution under the UCMJ.”

and

(2) Techniques deemed prohibited by US Army Field Manual 2-22.3 Human Intelligence Collector Operations (warning large pdf file).

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kbordson 8]

No, I identify as a Moderate, Libertarian Party, but I do *not* support the use of torture (including but not limited to waterboarding) by the US.

[vortexring 0]

Unfortunately I think I've found your poll flawed; who's going to admit to partisanship in your poll Marg? Who's going to admit to not bothering their arses to download the rather large files? Reading them. Making some kind of collation. Making a worthy vote.


?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[nerdgirl 0]

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Unfortunately I think I've found your poll flawed; who's going to admit to partisanship in your poll Marg? Who's going to admit to not bothering their arses to download the rather large files? Reading them. Making some kind of collation. Making a worthy vote.

?

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Unfortunately I think I've found your poll flawed; who's going to admit to partisanship in your poll Marg? Who's going to admit to not bothering their arses to download the rather large files? Reading them. Making some kind of collation. Making a worthy vote.

?

To some extent, you're correct.

My intent is not to excoriate but to educate. How can I better do that? Really? I directly cite data, cite the operators, cite the US Army and USMC's opposition. I give short concise answers (with references) *and* I provide longer ones with references. The information is there. Folks can do the work or not. (Personal responsibility, eh?)

Former DOJ attorney/UC Berkeley Prof John Yoo is not stupid. Not at all.

Between all of the data I've presented, the complete lack of any substantiating evidence from those who support use of torture, and the fact that some of those who do are not uneducated idiots, suggests that it's not an education issue.

What's the explanation?

Given the error bars in dz.com polls are likely to be large: Why do folks, who do appear to be a slight minority of Republican-leaning folks and a smaller minority of Democratic-leaning folks still support the “most effective recruiting tool” for Islamic radicals even tho’ that is contrary to all the available evidence and facts and contrary to their professed belief in supporting the troops?

Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[AWL71 0]

Citing torture as thier "most effective recruiting tool" is nonsense. So your saying that the Islamic extremists are driven to hate us and fight against us due to our use of torture? So if all types of torture stop is the problem solved?

It is easy to find manuals and academics that support any position. I merely feel that every situation in the "field" will require a different set of parameters.

I am sure there are many situations where "torture" has yielded good information. But I can't exactly google this information in support of my position. You on the other hand can quote articles against torture for days because that information is readily available. I am merely in favor of doing whatever it takes to get the job done. War is about winning period. I really don't care if my enemy loses "respect" for me.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Citing torture as thier "most effective recruiting tool" is nonsense. So your saying that the Islamic extremists are driven to hate us and fight against us due to our use of torture? So if all types of torture stop is the problem solved?

Really? "Nonsense"?
On what basis do you make your criticism?

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It is easy to find manuals and academics that support any position.

Can you point to one academic who I have cited as opposed to use of torture?

The only academics I have cited, Profs John Yoo & Alan Dershowitz, support the use of torture.

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I am sure there are many situations where "torture" has yielded good information.

Sure? Why are you so sure? What makes you so sure?


/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Amazon 7]

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I am sure there are many situations where "torture" has yielded good information. But I can't exactly google this information in support of my position. You on the other hand can quote articles against torture for days because that information is readily available. I am merely in favor of doing whatever it takes to get the job done. War is about winning period. I really don't care if my enemy loses "respect" for me.

I am not sure about that at all.. and I got to meet some rather interesting men from some of our "allies".... that should just be taken out and shot because they were despicable and had no humanity left. They really DO enjoy what they do.

Yes winning is important in war... BUT when you sink to that level... you may win a battle but lose the war because it becomes unwinnable in the eyes of those who are supporting your enemy. How long are we willing to expend our young people..30 years... 50 years???

I guess those that sit at home and have nothing to lose see things a bit differently than those out there doing the dirty work.

[nerdgirl 0]

I was hoping you would respond quickly ... nonetheless, for clarification:

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Citing torture as thier "most effective recruiting tool" is nonsense. So your saying that the Islamic extremists are driven to hate us and fight against us due to our use of torture?

First, do you really think I would invoke a characterization like that without having a pretty good source? Really?


Senator John McCain made that characterization. Does that change your opinion that it’s a “nonsense” idea?

Use of torture and Orwellian-“enhanced interrogation” has been the “greatest recruiting tool” for al Qa’eda, al Qa’eda in Iraq, and other insurgents targeting US soldiers, airmen, sailors, Marines, deployed civilians, and US nationals abroad.

Sen McCain also said: “So you can't underestimate the damage that our treatment of prisoners, both at Abu Ghraib and other [facilities, has] ... harmed our national security interests. What I am interested in and committed to is making sure we don't do it again. We're in this long twilight struggle here, and so America's prestige and image, as we all know, was damaged by these stories of mistreatment. And we've got to make sure the world knows that that's not the United States of America that they knew and appreciated for centuries.” Supporting the troops means opposing all use of torture. All. By all. Against all.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[AWL71 0]

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I was hoping you would respond quickly ... nonetheless, for clarification:

Quote

Citing torture as thier "most effective recruiting tool" is nonsense. So your saying that the Islamic extremists are driven to hate us and fight against us due to our use of torture?

First, do you really think I would invoke a characterization like that without having a pretty good source? Really?


Senator John McCain made that characterization. Does that change your opinion that it’s a “nonsense” idea?

Use of torture and Orwellian-“enhanced interrogation” has been the “greatest recruiting tool” for al Qa’eda, al Qa’eda in Iraq, and other insurgents targeting US soldiers, airmen, sailors, Marines, deployed civilians, and US nationals abroad.

Sen McCain also said: “So you can't underestimate the damage that our treatment of prisoners, both at Abu Ghraib and other [facilities, has] ... harmed our national security interests. What I am interested in and committed to is making sure we don't do it again. We're in this long twilight struggle here, and so America's prestige and image, as we all know, was damaged by these stories of mistreatment. And we've got to make sure the world knows that that's not the United States of America that they knew and appreciated for centuries.” Supporting the troops means opposing all use of torture. All. By all. Against all.

/Marg

McCain is entitled to his opinion but I disagree. My position is merely that we need to do whats needs to be done. If that can be accomplished without "torture" then I am all for it. If more agressive techniques save lives then I am for that. War is not a "lifetime" movie. People die and bad things happen. You can't make War pretty. They are called enimies for a reason.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[nerdgirl 0]

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War is not a "lifetime" movie.

And what do you mean to imply by that?

Is this the "If you don't agree with the person and have no substantive argument, then you are ignorant" technique? Or is it something else?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Remster 26]

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War is not a "lifetime" movie.

And what do you mean to imply by that?

/Marg

You're a girl. Stop worrying your pretty little head Marg...

Remster

[AWL71 0]

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War is not a "lifetime" movie.

And what do you mean to imply by that?

Is this the "If you don't agree with the person and have no substantive argument, then you are ignorant" technique? Or is it something else?

/Marg

What I mean by that is War is ugly. There are no clear cut answers and there are so many variables. There is nothing substantive I can write that will change your mind. It is OK to disagree. I see the point you are trying to make but I do not think it is realistic. It is idealistic and far from ignorant. I enjoy reading your posts. They always make me think and that is a good thing.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[billvon 2,476]

> My position is merely that we need to do whats needs to be done.

Agreed. We do what we need to do to be successful.

>If more agressive techniques save lives then I am for that.

Right. But if they don't work then I am against them. And if it's proven that they are actually harmful - and ignorant people persist in using them, thus harming the US in the long run - they should go to jail for a long, long time. This isn't a game we're playing.

>War is not a "lifetime" movie.

Nor is it like 24.

[FreeflyChile 0]

Quote

Curious if this really does breakdown as a partisan issue across this group.

To avoid the strawman "comfy green cushion" or "Coke & a smile" suggestions, torture (for this poll) includes waterboarding and activities prohibited by

(1) US Army FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation (large pdf file), which states in Chapter 1, under the heading “Prohibition Against Use of Force”

“Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.”

“The psychological techniques and principles outlined should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs. These techniques and principles are intended to serve as guides in obtaining the willing cooperation of a source. The absence of threats in interrogation is intentional, as their enforcement and use normally constitute violations of international law and may result in prosecution under the UCMJ.”

and

(2) Techniques deemed prohibited by US Army Field Manual 2-22.3 Human Intelligence Collector Operations (warning large pdf file).

/Marg

I don't support it because of the sources I've read stating it doesn't work.

If it was proven to conclusively work, I'd support it. The moral dilemma isn't that huge for me because i see it in terms of 'existing/being alive' is better than 'not existing/not being alive'. If death is the worst you can do to a person because of its nature of being 'permanent', and we are so willing to kill those that oppose us, why so squeamish about 'lesser' tactics?

I don't personally like the idea of torture, and am glad it seems to not be effective. I just don't understand the moral relativism of 'killing is OK, torturing is not'.

[bodypilot90 0]

Australians are well-known for their innuendos and careful choice of words but the following takes some beating!!


During a talk show, a part time Councillor of a town in NSW was asked for his thoughts on the torture of Iraquis. He replied " If hitching an arab's nuts to a car battery saves one Australian life, I have three things to say .



Red is positive


Black is negative


Make sure his nuts are wet

[wolfriverjoe 1,371]

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" If hitching an arab's nuts to a car battery saves one Australian life,

Right.

But torture doesn't always supply good usable infromation.
It can easily supply whatever information the interrogator wishes.

AND it routinely supplies valuable propaganda to the enemy. Which puts the troops on our side at greater risk in the long run. Look at the fallout from the Abu Graib pictures.

I'm not saying never. But routine use of torture is counterproductive.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[n23x 0]

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a part time Councillor of a town in NSW

(1) Perhaps there was a reason he was part time.

And

(2) You couldn't find anybody on your own continent whom you view as a moral compass?

Case closed, you guys got me convinced!

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[nerdgirl 0]

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What I mean by that is War is ugly. There are no clear cut answers and there are so many variables. There is nothing substantive I can write that will change your mind. It is OK to disagree. I see the point you are trying to make but I do not think it is realistic. It is idealistic and far from ignorant.

It’s never been about “what (I) say/said” but about what the data and historical records supports and what those with *operational* experience (not analytical, not policy, not theoretical, and not academic) have learned. It's about listening to the guys who are the operators.

Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jgoose71 0]

It's time to wake up to the enemies tactics. Yes it is true that they are using things like Abu Graib as a recruiting tool, but if they didn't have that they would use other things. Just a few examples:

Shooting at U.S troops while hiding behind civilians and then waving the dead bodies of those civilians on national TV.

Using women as suicide bombers and then video taping the US searching them and saying "See how the US is treating our women?"

On the flip side, what they do to us just doesn't matter. What they do to americans just don't matter. We all know the story of Daniel Pearl and I won't even talk about how I have found some American Bodies. While I was over seas my buddies I was working with and I had a pact "We will not be taken alive." We know what was waiting for us. Personally I would much rather be water boarded.

They are waging a war against us in the media and in eye of public opinion and WE are letting ourselves loose. Just my 2 Cents.

P.S. I voted for enhanced interrogation, but by properly trained personnel with NO CAMERAS!!!! Not idiots out of high school with access to Youtube.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Andy9o8 0]

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P.S. I voted for enhanced interrogation, but by properly trained personnel with NO CAMERAS!!!!

Secrecy, when it is truly necessary to preserve national security, is one thing. Secrecy to conceal wrongdoing, but masqueraded as being to preserve national security, is quite another.

[jakee 1,280]

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Australians are well-known for their innuendos and careful choice of words but the following takes some beating!!


During a talk show, a part time Councillor of a town in NSW was asked for his thoughts on the torture of Iraquis.

Which town? Which talk show? What was his name? When was it aired? Why do people keep inventing this transparent bullshit?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[carmenc 0]

3 days into your poll it seems that 43% of self professed righties support torture, and 18% of self-styled lefties support torture.

I would venture that as a significant divergence of opinion based on political inclination.

C

[vortexring 0]

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What's the explanation?

Given the error bars in dz.com polls are likely to be large: Why do folks, who do appear to be a slight minority of Republican-leaning folks and a smaller minority of Democratic-leaning folks still support the “most effective recruiting tool” for Islamic radicals even tho’ that is contrary to all the available evidence and facts and contrary to their professed belief in supporting the troops?

Marg

I think the explanation is fairly simple. Some people want Islamic radicals and combatants tortured. If a few(?) innocents get in the way, tough luck, and to hell with the consequences. Educated or uneducated. The remainder? Perhaps through ignorance. Which you're trying to address. And that is good.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'