JohnMitchell 14 #26 September 1, 2006 Quote>But I wonder how many experienced jumpers, while going through 2k >at terminal with a main that won't come out, will go straight to silver. In my experience - very few. People generally do what they train to do, and I've never seen anyone practice just going for their reserve handle. I have, but I train that way. I wasn't going thru 2 grand, but right at it, but I had had my 2 extra tries to fix the problem. Having learned on gutter gear, then jumping all kinds of stuff for many years, including tandem rigs(probably your in the same boat, too, Bill), I find I'm very specific in my procedures, and try to avoid a one-size-fits-all approach. I had a problem one time years ago with an open container but no pilot chute out to deploy it. I threw my right arm behind my back over the bag to hold it in place while I went for the reserve with my left hand. Has anyone else ever tried this? Might be an okay solution for pilot chute in tow. No solution is perfect in that situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #27 September 2, 2006 QuoteQuotenot cutting away killed this experienced skydiver a PCIT is a nightmare to deal with, chances go in both directions: you can survive either action or get killed the same There may have been an entanglement even if she had cutaway first. The bagged main still has to pass through the same path, whether the risers have been released or not. Simultaneous deployment was exactly the subject of the testing done by the Army/PD, and their results do not lead to the conclusion that cutting away first is better. There was another death later in the year from a pc in tow, where the victim did cutaway and his canopies still tangled. So it's not a sure thing in any event. I know when I came back from a long absence, my recurrency instructor taught me to cutaway if my pc was out. The SIM actually says there are arguments for and against cutting away and USPA does not take a position for or against it, rather they urge us all to have our EP's planned out ahead of time and to stick to the plan if the need arises. A pc in tow is such a terrifying thing,there is no sure cure. Short of a major rig innovation that can somehow cure the situation (and wouldn't THAT be nice), the BEST action to take is really VIGILANT prevention. Even if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #28 September 2, 2006 Quote A pc in tow is such a terrifying thing,there is no sure cure. Short of a major rig innovation that can somehow cure the situation (and wouldn't THAT be nice), the BEST action to take is really VIGILANT prevention. pullout pullout pullout pullout. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #29 September 2, 2006 I agree ... pull-out minimizes the chances of a pilot chute in tow, but isn't a 100% solution. I've jumped Racers for years and twice I've had serious towed pilot chutes. On one, the pilot chute looked like a spinning rag. Didn't inflate, just flopped around. I pushed the bag out of the container and had a lousy opening with a spin and line twists. On the other, I tossed the pilot chute out, watched it inflate and go to line stretch on the bridle, turned my head back forward and reached for where the risers would be at line stretch ... and just kept plummeting. Looked back over my shoulder and there's my pilot chute, dragging along like a tandem drogue. Pushed the bag out by hand again and had a normal opening. Still, I like to know that if the pilot chute is pulled out, the container is open.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #30 September 2, 2006 Those racer containers were a little tight, weren't they? I've had no trouble with my Infinity pullout. <<>> I've done that "push the bag out by hand" trick. Certainly want to keep one eye on the ground while you're doing that kind of stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #31 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuote A pc in tow is such a terrifying thing,there is no sure cure. Short of a major rig innovation that can somehow cure the situation (and wouldn't THAT be nice), the BEST action to take is really VIGILANT prevention. pullout pullout pullout pullout. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Well yeah, and we can also say "ripcord, ripcord, ripcord", as pc's in tow were virtually unknown on the old ripcord deployed mains. But nobody uses ripcords anymore, except for the reserve - and for a number of excellent reasons. I've often thought about a pullout, all the way back to the late seventies when both systems were new. Over the years it's been pretty well established that pullouts are not considered suitable for newbies, due to a number of things that can go distinctly wrong with a pullout as opposed to a throwaway. And across the board, pullouts have racked up a higher percentage of total mals than throwaways. Admittedly a total mal is much easier to deal with than a pc in tow, you just pull silver without having to pray desperately for it not to entangle with anything. But a mal is a mal and getting more totals is not a pleasant alternative either. I think proper maintenance and prevention have kept the problem small enough that throwaways have far outnumbered pullouts in the marketplace. And I think pullouts are fine for people who want them and have the training and experience to use them properly. But for the rest of us, I was thinking of something even cooler, like somehow being able to release a pc in tow. Don't ask me how - somebody else will just have to make their millions when they patent a workable idea ! Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #32 September 4, 2006 QuoteWell yeah, and we can also say "ripcord, ripcord, ripcord", as pc's in tow were virtually unknown on the old ripcord deployed mains. But nobody uses ripcords anymore, except for the reserve - and for a number of excellent reasons. Ever wonder why they use ripcords for reserves? Because they are so damn easy to use and so reliable. But a spring loaded pilot chute is harder to pack, doesn't lay as flat, and doesn't collapse with a kill line, so they have fallen into disfavor. Given a choice between style and comfort vs. safety, skydivers go with style and comfort everytime. Todays throw outs are much more reliabel since the curve pin was invented, but I switched to pullouts long before that, after towing a pilot chute one day. If no one minds, I'll stick with them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #33 September 18, 2006 Quote>But I wonder how many experienced jumpers, while going through 2k >at terminal with a main that won't come out, will go straight to silver. In my experience - very few. People generally do what they train to do, and I've never seen anyone practice just going for their reserve handle. op a reserv I practice just chopping in case of needing to chop the main in high wind conditions, mostly with tandems. I had a pilot chute in tow as the cause of my third sport chop. I was high and directly over the landing area and took a moment to consider. I came up with fear of ending up with two out, cause I expected to have the main deploy at any moment and was afraid that moment would come right when I deployed the reserve. I chopped the main, waited a beat and then deployed my reserve. After the reserve was open and I was under canopy I felt a tug on the container and felt the main come free. The container is looser with the reserve out and the bag then released. I vote that the pilot chute out is a partial. The pilot chute is a component of the main, so if a part of the main has been deployed the malfunction is partial. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #34 September 24, 2006 QuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility... It IS the packer who by the way should be a licensed rigger or at least closely supervised by one and that doesnt mean hanging around the DZ somewhere or sitting in the bar. Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... Just want you to know that a "packer" actually left my brakes unstowed once because I didnt know about this "RULE" and I about klled him when I got down. I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. OK back to the main topic... I vote chop it. Better than sitting there burning up altitude thinking about it.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #35 September 29, 2006 It all depends on time. If its in tow and you have time, pull on it or try to elboy the container like someone is going to fuck u in the ass. Still have time why not cut away. NO TIME pull silver but CUT AWAY RIGHT AFTER. I HOPE SOMEONE ELSE SAID THIS.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #36 September 29, 2006 QuoteStill have time why not cut away. I think it is not at all clear that you are better off to cutaway first. That conclusion ignores testing that was done, and ignores that many near simultaneous deployments happen with OK results. It is not nearly so common that the main is cutaway first, so we don't have nearly as much actual experience to base an assertion that cutting away first is better. Of course I realize both methods have ended badly. I just cannot agree that cutting away first is clearly the best strategy.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #37 September 29, 2006 If you have Time!!!! what is cutting away going to do to you? And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #38 September 29, 2006 QuoteIf you have Time!!!! what is cutting away going to do to you? And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. If the main deploys simultaneously and is already cut away, everything still has to be pulled up and past as the reserve is also deploying. If it is cutaway first, then the loose risers will not just go straight up, they will be flapping around as they go up, with the possibility of snagging the main (it has happened), especially if you have an RSL shackle that will be attached to a riser. If the main container only opens up after the reserve opening shock, then it will fall harmlessly down instead of up, and of course can be chopped with no concern at that time. The PD/army testing concluded that not cutting away was better. You can argue that the canopies used do not represent your situation, but we don't have other testing data, just actual experiences.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #39 September 29, 2006 I new you where going to through that RSL crap in. I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. I have been in raps and mals on my back. unless Im in a low pull contest I dont want one.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #40 September 29, 2006 QuoteI new you where going to through that RSL crap in. I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. I have been in raps and mals on my back. unless Im in a low pull contest I dont want one. Why so combative? Have I been rude? I don't use an RSL either, but a lot of people do, and it is relevant to this issue. Even without an RSL shackle, the risers can still snag the main. I think this issue is interesting because it is not a settled question. Therefore I think it is useful to know all the arguments from both sides and consider carefully, that is all.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #41 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility. It will not only save time, but it will better ensure that the gear is properly configured before jumping again. Everyone makes mistakes, even packers that bust their asses all day long doing the job few people like to do. Also, no one puts the care and attentiveness that the person getting ready to jump will naturally put into it. If I am about to put a rig on my back to go and make a jump, it is my responsibility to do all I can to ensure that piece of equipment is ready to jump. I haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter, but being responsible for the gear as much as possible is what I teach students I work with anyway. That is just my own personal opinion. The USPAs is found in the FAR 105.43. A PCIT is a total malfunction... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #42 September 29, 2006 QuoteI haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter I've been jumping since '80, and where I was, EVERYONE packed for themselves until the early '90s.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #43 September 29, 2006 what is cutting away going to do to you?*** One person you could ask is Mike McGowan. He spun into the trees at Cross Keys years ago after first cutting away from a PC in tow. In the Skydiving mag article, he said he'd never do it again. Choose your own path, but I'd suggest you expect no guarantees either way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #44 September 29, 2006 >what is cutting away going to do to you? It can allow riser ends to flop around your reserve tray (if your riser covers aren't 100%) >And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, >why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. Doing CRW with yourself generally results in a much better outcome than trying to land a fouled reserve. History has shown that a dual deployment isn't generally a big deal - but a cutaway main that fouls a reserve is. >I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. Two people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. (Not to say it's bad to not have an RSL - but an AAD isn't a replacement for one.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Foggy 0 #45 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility... It IS the packer who by the way should be a licensed rigger or at least closely supervised by one and that doesnt mean hanging around the DZ somewhere or sitting in the bar. Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... Just want you to know that a "packer" actually left my brakes unstowed once because I didnt know about this "RULE" and I about klled him when I got down. I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. OK back to the main topic... I vote chop it. Better than sitting there burning up altitude thinking about it. I hope you got your $5 back Foggy D21109 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #46 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteI haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter I've been jumping since '80, and where I was, EVERYONE packed for themselves until the early '90s. The only mal's I have had had been packed by packers - I pack for myself almost always. Besides, I need the exercise. Still, whenever I have to use a packer I get my stuff ready as if I were going to pack it myself. Just to do all I can in case they overlook something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #47 September 29, 2006 QuoteTwo people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. Interesting note on those two, one had just started skydiving and the other had many years in the sport, lack of altitude awareness got em both. Some things experience dosent help with if you dont train enough/correctly... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #48 September 29, 2006 >Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for >making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... ?? You are responsible for ensuring the gear you use is assembled, packed, maintained and operated correctly. Lazy jumpers (myself included) often use packers, but that's a convenience, not a transfer of responsibility (although good packers will often offer to 'make good' on cutaways.) You cannot assume that packers do a perfect job; often they do not. >I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. That's definitely one way to handle it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 58 #49 September 29, 2006 QuoteOne person you could ask is Mike McGowan. He spun into the trees at Cross Keys years ago after first cutting away from a PC in tow. In the Skydiving mag article, he said he'd never do it again. I remember that. That was in around year 2000. He cut away and pulled his reserve. The cut away main traveled UPWARDS and took the reserve slider back to the top of reserve lines. Mike said he had had only 2 out of 7 cells inflated. He hit some tall trees in that configuration. Mike said he would NEVER cut away from the pc-in-tow again. Interestingly, next time he had a pc-in-tow, he elected to CUT AWAY. Post about this here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=992683#992683 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #50 September 29, 2006 Quote>what is cutting away going to do to you? It can allow riser ends to flop around your reserve tray (if your riser covers aren't 100%) >And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, >why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. Doing CRW with yourself generally results in a much better outcome than trying to land a fouled reserve. History has shown that a dual deployment isn't generally a big deal - but a cutaway main that fouls a reserve is. ??????????????????????????????????????????????? ---------------------------------------------------------- I guess i might be missing something but if your under a reserve with forward motion and your main falls from your container and starts to open behind you but is not attached to you how will that foul your reserve. I must jump with different gear. I rather land with one canpoy. History has shown that people have made mistakes with two out because its unpredictable. >I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. Two people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. (Not to say it's bad to not have an RSL - but an AAD isn't a replacement for one.) Of course its not a rsl dude, my left hand is my rsl and my back up can be my AAD if i loose my left hand. I have been in two spots where my rsl could of done me in.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
tbrown 26 #31 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuote A pc in tow is such a terrifying thing,there is no sure cure. Short of a major rig innovation that can somehow cure the situation (and wouldn't THAT be nice), the BEST action to take is really VIGILANT prevention. pullout pullout pullout pullout. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Well yeah, and we can also say "ripcord, ripcord, ripcord", as pc's in tow were virtually unknown on the old ripcord deployed mains. But nobody uses ripcords anymore, except for the reserve - and for a number of excellent reasons. I've often thought about a pullout, all the way back to the late seventies when both systems were new. Over the years it's been pretty well established that pullouts are not considered suitable for newbies, due to a number of things that can go distinctly wrong with a pullout as opposed to a throwaway. And across the board, pullouts have racked up a higher percentage of total mals than throwaways. Admittedly a total mal is much easier to deal with than a pc in tow, you just pull silver without having to pray desperately for it not to entangle with anything. But a mal is a mal and getting more totals is not a pleasant alternative either. I think proper maintenance and prevention have kept the problem small enough that throwaways have far outnumbered pullouts in the marketplace. And I think pullouts are fine for people who want them and have the training and experience to use them properly. But for the rest of us, I was thinking of something even cooler, like somehow being able to release a pc in tow. Don't ask me how - somebody else will just have to make their millions when they patent a workable idea ! Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #32 September 4, 2006 QuoteWell yeah, and we can also say "ripcord, ripcord, ripcord", as pc's in tow were virtually unknown on the old ripcord deployed mains. But nobody uses ripcords anymore, except for the reserve - and for a number of excellent reasons. Ever wonder why they use ripcords for reserves? Because they are so damn easy to use and so reliable. But a spring loaded pilot chute is harder to pack, doesn't lay as flat, and doesn't collapse with a kill line, so they have fallen into disfavor. Given a choice between style and comfort vs. safety, skydivers go with style and comfort everytime. Todays throw outs are much more reliabel since the curve pin was invented, but I switched to pullouts long before that, after towing a pilot chute one day. If no one minds, I'll stick with them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #33 September 18, 2006 Quote>But I wonder how many experienced jumpers, while going through 2k >at terminal with a main that won't come out, will go straight to silver. In my experience - very few. People generally do what they train to do, and I've never seen anyone practice just going for their reserve handle. op a reserv I practice just chopping in case of needing to chop the main in high wind conditions, mostly with tandems. I had a pilot chute in tow as the cause of my third sport chop. I was high and directly over the landing area and took a moment to consider. I came up with fear of ending up with two out, cause I expected to have the main deploy at any moment and was afraid that moment would come right when I deployed the reserve. I chopped the main, waited a beat and then deployed my reserve. After the reserve was open and I was under canopy I felt a tug on the container and felt the main come free. The container is looser with the reserve out and the bag then released. I vote that the pilot chute out is a partial. The pilot chute is a component of the main, so if a part of the main has been deployed the malfunction is partial. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #34 September 24, 2006 QuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility... It IS the packer who by the way should be a licensed rigger or at least closely supervised by one and that doesnt mean hanging around the DZ somewhere or sitting in the bar. Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... Just want you to know that a "packer" actually left my brakes unstowed once because I didnt know about this "RULE" and I about klled him when I got down. I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. OK back to the main topic... I vote chop it. Better than sitting there burning up altitude thinking about it.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #35 September 29, 2006 It all depends on time. If its in tow and you have time, pull on it or try to elboy the container like someone is going to fuck u in the ass. Still have time why not cut away. NO TIME pull silver but CUT AWAY RIGHT AFTER. I HOPE SOMEONE ELSE SAID THIS.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #36 September 29, 2006 QuoteStill have time why not cut away. I think it is not at all clear that you are better off to cutaway first. That conclusion ignores testing that was done, and ignores that many near simultaneous deployments happen with OK results. It is not nearly so common that the main is cutaway first, so we don't have nearly as much actual experience to base an assertion that cutting away first is better. Of course I realize both methods have ended badly. I just cannot agree that cutting away first is clearly the best strategy.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #37 September 29, 2006 If you have Time!!!! what is cutting away going to do to you? And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #38 September 29, 2006 QuoteIf you have Time!!!! what is cutting away going to do to you? And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. If the main deploys simultaneously and is already cut away, everything still has to be pulled up and past as the reserve is also deploying. If it is cutaway first, then the loose risers will not just go straight up, they will be flapping around as they go up, with the possibility of snagging the main (it has happened), especially if you have an RSL shackle that will be attached to a riser. If the main container only opens up after the reserve opening shock, then it will fall harmlessly down instead of up, and of course can be chopped with no concern at that time. The PD/army testing concluded that not cutting away was better. You can argue that the canopies used do not represent your situation, but we don't have other testing data, just actual experiences.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #39 September 29, 2006 I new you where going to through that RSL crap in. I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. I have been in raps and mals on my back. unless Im in a low pull contest I dont want one.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #40 September 29, 2006 QuoteI new you where going to through that RSL crap in. I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. I have been in raps and mals on my back. unless Im in a low pull contest I dont want one. Why so combative? Have I been rude? I don't use an RSL either, but a lot of people do, and it is relevant to this issue. Even without an RSL shackle, the risers can still snag the main. I think this issue is interesting because it is not a settled question. Therefore I think it is useful to know all the arguments from both sides and consider carefully, that is all.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #41 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility. It will not only save time, but it will better ensure that the gear is properly configured before jumping again. Everyone makes mistakes, even packers that bust their asses all day long doing the job few people like to do. Also, no one puts the care and attentiveness that the person getting ready to jump will naturally put into it. If I am about to put a rig on my back to go and make a jump, it is my responsibility to do all I can to ensure that piece of equipment is ready to jump. I haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter, but being responsible for the gear as much as possible is what I teach students I work with anyway. That is just my own personal opinion. The USPAs is found in the FAR 105.43. A PCIT is a total malfunction... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #42 September 29, 2006 QuoteI haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter I've been jumping since '80, and where I was, EVERYONE packed for themselves until the early '90s.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #43 September 29, 2006 what is cutting away going to do to you?*** One person you could ask is Mike McGowan. He spun into the trees at Cross Keys years ago after first cutting away from a PC in tow. In the Skydiving mag article, he said he'd never do it again. Choose your own path, but I'd suggest you expect no guarantees either way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #44 September 29, 2006 >what is cutting away going to do to you? It can allow riser ends to flop around your reserve tray (if your riser covers aren't 100%) >And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, >why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. Doing CRW with yourself generally results in a much better outcome than trying to land a fouled reserve. History has shown that a dual deployment isn't generally a big deal - but a cutaway main that fouls a reserve is. >I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. Two people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. (Not to say it's bad to not have an RSL - but an AAD isn't a replacement for one.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Foggy 0 #45 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility... It IS the packer who by the way should be a licensed rigger or at least closely supervised by one and that doesnt mean hanging around the DZ somewhere or sitting in the bar. Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... Just want you to know that a "packer" actually left my brakes unstowed once because I didnt know about this "RULE" and I about klled him when I got down. I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. OK back to the main topic... I vote chop it. Better than sitting there burning up altitude thinking about it. I hope you got your $5 back Foggy D21109 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #46 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteI haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter I've been jumping since '80, and where I was, EVERYONE packed for themselves until the early '90s. The only mal's I have had had been packed by packers - I pack for myself almost always. Besides, I need the exercise. Still, whenever I have to use a packer I get my stuff ready as if I were going to pack it myself. Just to do all I can in case they overlook something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #47 September 29, 2006 QuoteTwo people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. Interesting note on those two, one had just started skydiving and the other had many years in the sport, lack of altitude awareness got em both. Some things experience dosent help with if you dont train enough/correctly... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #48 September 29, 2006 >Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for >making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... ?? You are responsible for ensuring the gear you use is assembled, packed, maintained and operated correctly. Lazy jumpers (myself included) often use packers, but that's a convenience, not a transfer of responsibility (although good packers will often offer to 'make good' on cutaways.) You cannot assume that packers do a perfect job; often they do not. >I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. That's definitely one way to handle it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 58 #49 September 29, 2006 QuoteOne person you could ask is Mike McGowan. He spun into the trees at Cross Keys years ago after first cutting away from a PC in tow. In the Skydiving mag article, he said he'd never do it again. I remember that. That was in around year 2000. He cut away and pulled his reserve. The cut away main traveled UPWARDS and took the reserve slider back to the top of reserve lines. Mike said he had had only 2 out of 7 cells inflated. He hit some tall trees in that configuration. Mike said he would NEVER cut away from the pc-in-tow again. Interestingly, next time he had a pc-in-tow, he elected to CUT AWAY. Post about this here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=992683#992683 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #50 September 29, 2006 Quote>what is cutting away going to do to you? It can allow riser ends to flop around your reserve tray (if your riser covers aren't 100%) >And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, >why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. Doing CRW with yourself generally results in a much better outcome than trying to land a fouled reserve. History has shown that a dual deployment isn't generally a big deal - but a cutaway main that fouls a reserve is. ??????????????????????????????????????????????? ---------------------------------------------------------- I guess i might be missing something but if your under a reserve with forward motion and your main falls from your container and starts to open behind you but is not attached to you how will that foul your reserve. I must jump with different gear. I rather land with one canpoy. History has shown that people have made mistakes with two out because its unpredictable. >I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. Two people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. (Not to say it's bad to not have an RSL - but an AAD isn't a replacement for one.) Of course its not a rsl dude, my left hand is my rsl and my back up can be my AAD if i loose my left hand. I have been in two spots where my rsl could of done me in.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Deuce 1 #33 September 18, 2006 Quote>But I wonder how many experienced jumpers, while going through 2k >at terminal with a main that won't come out, will go straight to silver. In my experience - very few. People generally do what they train to do, and I've never seen anyone practice just going for their reserve handle. op a reserv I practice just chopping in case of needing to chop the main in high wind conditions, mostly with tandems. I had a pilot chute in tow as the cause of my third sport chop. I was high and directly over the landing area and took a moment to consider. I came up with fear of ending up with two out, cause I expected to have the main deploy at any moment and was afraid that moment would come right when I deployed the reserve. I chopped the main, waited a beat and then deployed my reserve. After the reserve was open and I was under canopy I felt a tug on the container and felt the main come free. The container is looser with the reserve out and the bag then released. I vote that the pilot chute out is a partial. The pilot chute is a component of the main, so if a part of the main has been deployed the malfunction is partial. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #34 September 24, 2006 QuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility... It IS the packer who by the way should be a licensed rigger or at least closely supervised by one and that doesnt mean hanging around the DZ somewhere or sitting in the bar. Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... Just want you to know that a "packer" actually left my brakes unstowed once because I didnt know about this "RULE" and I about klled him when I got down. I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. OK back to the main topic... I vote chop it. Better than sitting there burning up altitude thinking about it.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
recovercrachead 0 #35 September 29, 2006 It all depends on time. If its in tow and you have time, pull on it or try to elboy the container like someone is going to fuck u in the ass. Still have time why not cut away. NO TIME pull silver but CUT AWAY RIGHT AFTER. I HOPE SOMEONE ELSE SAID THIS.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #36 September 29, 2006 QuoteStill have time why not cut away. I think it is not at all clear that you are better off to cutaway first. That conclusion ignores testing that was done, and ignores that many near simultaneous deployments happen with OK results. It is not nearly so common that the main is cutaway first, so we don't have nearly as much actual experience to base an assertion that cutting away first is better. Of course I realize both methods have ended badly. I just cannot agree that cutting away first is clearly the best strategy.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
recovercrachead 0 #37 September 29, 2006 If you have Time!!!! what is cutting away going to do to you? And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #38 September 29, 2006 QuoteIf you have Time!!!! what is cutting away going to do to you? And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. If the main deploys simultaneously and is already cut away, everything still has to be pulled up and past as the reserve is also deploying. If it is cutaway first, then the loose risers will not just go straight up, they will be flapping around as they go up, with the possibility of snagging the main (it has happened), especially if you have an RSL shackle that will be attached to a riser. If the main container only opens up after the reserve opening shock, then it will fall harmlessly down instead of up, and of course can be chopped with no concern at that time. The PD/army testing concluded that not cutting away was better. You can argue that the canopies used do not represent your situation, but we don't have other testing data, just actual experiences.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
recovercrachead 0 #39 September 29, 2006 I new you where going to through that RSL crap in. I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. I have been in raps and mals on my back. unless Im in a low pull contest I dont want one.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #40 September 29, 2006 QuoteI new you where going to through that RSL crap in. I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. I have been in raps and mals on my back. unless Im in a low pull contest I dont want one. Why so combative? Have I been rude? I don't use an RSL either, but a lot of people do, and it is relevant to this issue. Even without an RSL shackle, the risers can still snag the main. I think this issue is interesting because it is not a settled question. Therefore I think it is useful to know all the arguments from both sides and consider carefully, that is all.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #41 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility. It will not only save time, but it will better ensure that the gear is properly configured before jumping again. Everyone makes mistakes, even packers that bust their asses all day long doing the job few people like to do. Also, no one puts the care and attentiveness that the person getting ready to jump will naturally put into it. If I am about to put a rig on my back to go and make a jump, it is my responsibility to do all I can to ensure that piece of equipment is ready to jump. I haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter, but being responsible for the gear as much as possible is what I teach students I work with anyway. That is just my own personal opinion. The USPAs is found in the FAR 105.43. A PCIT is a total malfunction... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #42 September 29, 2006 QuoteI haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter I've been jumping since '80, and where I was, EVERYONE packed for themselves until the early '90s.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #43 September 29, 2006 what is cutting away going to do to you?*** One person you could ask is Mike McGowan. He spun into the trees at Cross Keys years ago after first cutting away from a PC in tow. In the Skydiving mag article, he said he'd never do it again. Choose your own path, but I'd suggest you expect no guarantees either way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #44 September 29, 2006 >what is cutting away going to do to you? It can allow riser ends to flop around your reserve tray (if your riser covers aren't 100%) >And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, >why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. Doing CRW with yourself generally results in a much better outcome than trying to land a fouled reserve. History has shown that a dual deployment isn't generally a big deal - but a cutaway main that fouls a reserve is. >I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. Two people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. (Not to say it's bad to not have an RSL - but an AAD isn't a replacement for one.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #45 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteEven if you use a packer, it's YOUR responsibility to reset your kill line (and set your brakes and open up your slider) before leaving your gear to the tender mercies of a packer. I would sure like to know when this became a rule... OK it will save time if you stow your brakes and set your kill line but it is not YOUR responsibility... It IS the packer who by the way should be a licensed rigger or at least closely supervised by one and that doesnt mean hanging around the DZ somewhere or sitting in the bar. Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... Just want you to know that a "packer" actually left my brakes unstowed once because I didnt know about this "RULE" and I about klled him when I got down. I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. OK back to the main topic... I vote chop it. Better than sitting there burning up altitude thinking about it. I hope you got your $5 back Foggy D21109 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #46 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteI haven’t been in the sport long enough to remember the good old days when the Beatles were still together and packs were only a quarter I've been jumping since '80, and where I was, EVERYONE packed for themselves until the early '90s. The only mal's I have had had been packed by packers - I pack for myself almost always. Besides, I need the exercise. Still, whenever I have to use a packer I get my stuff ready as if I were going to pack it myself. Just to do all I can in case they overlook something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #47 September 29, 2006 QuoteTwo people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. Interesting note on those two, one had just started skydiving and the other had many years in the sport, lack of altitude awareness got em both. Some things experience dosent help with if you dont train enough/correctly... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #48 September 29, 2006 >Anyone who packs another's main canopy IS RESPONSIBLE for >making sure that rig in it's entirety is ready to jump.... ?? You are responsible for ensuring the gear you use is assembled, packed, maintained and operated correctly. Lazy jumpers (myself included) often use packers, but that's a convenience, not a transfer of responsibility (although good packers will often offer to 'make good' on cutaways.) You cannot assume that packers do a perfect job; often they do not. >I don't use packers anymore.... Licensed or otherwise. That's definitely one way to handle it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 58 #49 September 29, 2006 QuoteOne person you could ask is Mike McGowan. He spun into the trees at Cross Keys years ago after first cutting away from a PC in tow. In the Skydiving mag article, he said he'd never do it again. I remember that. That was in around year 2000. He cut away and pulled his reserve. The cut away main traveled UPWARDS and took the reserve slider back to the top of reserve lines. Mike said he had had only 2 out of 7 cells inflated. He hit some tall trees in that configuration. Mike said he would NEVER cut away from the pc-in-tow again. Interestingly, next time he had a pc-in-tow, he elected to CUT AWAY. Post about this here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=992683#992683 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
recovercrachead 0 #50 September 29, 2006 Quote>what is cutting away going to do to you? It can allow riser ends to flop around your reserve tray (if your riser covers aren't 100%) >And if you pulled your silver and you opened with a main pc behind you, >why have it hooked up? Unless you like doing CRW with yourself. Doing CRW with yourself generally results in a much better outcome than trying to land a fouled reserve. History has shown that a dual deployment isn't generally a big deal - but a cutaway main that fouls a reserve is. ??????????????????????????????????????????????? ---------------------------------------------------------- I guess i might be missing something but if your under a reserve with forward motion and your main falls from your container and starts to open behind you but is not attached to you how will that foul your reserve. I must jump with different gear. I rather land with one canpoy. History has shown that people have made mistakes with two out because its unpredictable. >I have a ADD. Thats my rsl. Two people died last year when they relied on their AAD to replace their RSL. In both cases the AAD fired, but did so too low to save the jumper's life. An AAD is not an RSL, and will often not deploy your reserve after you cut away. IMO it's a mistake to assume it will. (Not to say it's bad to not have an RSL - but an AAD isn't a replacement for one.) Of course its not a rsl dude, my left hand is my rsl and my back up can be my AAD if i loose my left hand. I have been in two spots where my rsl could of done me in.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
