Anti-spanking letter

[Taylor610 0]

Read the text. Proper exegesis shows that the pro-spanking people simply choose to read into this passage the very point they need to prove.



I guess it needs to be said that there are so many things wrong with the way "proper exegesis" is used in this context until it is quite disturbing. The terminology, "proper exegesis" can actually be an oxymoron if one understands exegesis. I don't claim to be a Biblical Expert; however, I do have a fairly strong background and a higher level of Biblical Education than most people. Though the letter itself is wonderfully put together, it needs to be said that this is a letter written by someone who has chosen the views of others that support their position. I can offer as many if not more that support the opposite. I would also point out that none of the supporting opinions were that of Biblical Scholars. It bothers me when people love to use the expert opinion of "Johnson and Johnson" (just picking out a name...) on what the Bible says. I think they make baby powder...

While I am not offering a stance to this forum what is right and what is wrong, I am offering the idea that just maybe, just maybe, it is our luxury of free speech and a media fed, frenzy ready society that will take a particular instance and turn it into a society problem. (i.e.) Because this child was spanked by his Daddy as a child he grew up to be an abusive Father, Husband, Neighbor and ended up mass murdering a group of school kids on his way to terrorist school...) that is the real issue here, not spankings.

My Mom and Dad spanked me when I deserved it (and many times I really deserved it...), but they did it out of love, not anger, and I learned from those spankings. I spanked all of my children at one time or another and I thing they learned from their spankings. They also must still love me, based on my Father's Day... a lot of nice things... They also call me pretty much every week with life's little problems, asking for my help. My kids mean the world to me, but every once in a while, I had to warm their rears...



Spankings are a sign of lazy parenting.

***

Should I consider that a PA??

Andrea, you know I think very highly of you and respect your opinion most of the time. I do also think that often times we allow our own personal experience(s) to get in the way of the difference of what is opinion and what is right and/or wrong. All being said, I will end with this, abuse is wrong, discipline is not...

Now I will sit here and wait quietly for my banning, or maybe just a good old fashion spankin' from my lazy Skymama

[peregrinerose 0]

It's been interesting reading all of these posts as I'm going through training now to become an adoptive parent. As a part of this, I become certified as a respite parent, foster parent, and adoptive parent, all in one shot. One of the requirements is that I sign a contract saying that I am never going to spank the child. No spanking, swatting, smacking a hand, or restraining of any type is allowed for these children. If I violate that contract, I can be tossed out of the program. I'm not even allowed to swat a hand if the kid is going to put it on a hot stove. Though I guess finding out the hard way will make them only do it once.

On the flip side of that, we have also gotten a lot of good training on how TO parent.... rewards/consequences, positive re-inforcement, etc.

Honestly, I think ALL parents should be certified with 24 hours of instruction like this as we are as foster/adoptive families. We've learned an amazing amount in a very short time. It's not teaching us how to solve every problem that can possibly arise, but it's giving us the tools we need to at least know where to find answers when we don't know what to do and give a really good foundation.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[mamajumps 0]

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It's been interesting reading all of these posts as I'm going through training now to become an adoptive parent. As a part of this, I become certified as a respite parent, foster parent, and adoptive parent, all in one shot. One of the requirements is that I sign a contract saying that I am never going to spank the child. No spanking, swatting, smacking a hand, or restraining of any type is allowed for these children. If I violate that contract, I can be tossed out of the program. I'm not even allowed to swat a hand if the kid is going to put it on a hot stove. Though I guess finding out the hard way will make them only do it once.

On the flip side of that, we have also gotten a lot of good training on how TO parent.... rewards/consequences, positive re-inforcement, etc.

Honestly, I think ALL parents should be certified with 24 hours of instruction like this as we are as foster/adoptive families. We've learned an amazing amount in a very short time. It's not teaching us how to solve every problem that can possibly arise, but it's giving us the tools we need to at least know where to find answers when we don't know what to do and give a really good foundation.

I think any training one can get as a parent ( as long as its from a reputable source) is good. It always nice to have other options, b/c as stated above not any one type of discipline works for all children. However I dont see how a swat on the hand or rump could be worse than a child getting a 1st degree or possibly worse burn from putting there hand on a burner or even yet getting flattened by a car for running out in traffic. I will also be a supported of spanking. My kids rarely get spanked, why becuase they respect me. Something that was instilled from a very young age. When they do get spanked, its never out of anger and they always know why. I can as a single mom, take all 3 of my kids out to eat by myself and enjoy it, and I always take all 3 of them with me to the grocery store and other than dealing with the mobs of people, its always an enjoyable experience. Spanking, like any form of discipline when done correctly is a great tool to raise a child into a respectable adult. Its when the right wing nut jobs confuse a minor spank with a beating that it is wrong.

[peregrinerose 0]

If a child puts a hand on a hot stove, they will heal up, they will learn that hot stoves hurt, they will never do it again. If a parent smacks a child, the child doesn't learn that the stove in unsafe, he only learns that the parent will hit him if he goes near the stove. That's the rationale.

Plus, with regard to kids in the foster care system, where so many have been at best neglected, any kind of physical violence only validates what the child has learned about adults/parents/people... that they will hit, that they are not trustworthy.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[freeflybella 0]

Just for the record (and confused):

discipline = teaching

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

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If a child puts a hand on a hot stove, they will heal up, they will learn that hot stoves hurt, they will never do it again. If a parent smacks a child, the child doesn't learn that the stove in unsafe, he only learns that the parent will hit him if he goes near the stove. That's the rationale.

Plus, with regard to kids in the foster care system, where so many have been at best neglected, any kind of physical violence only validates what the child has learned about adults/parents/people... that they will hit, that they are not trustworthy.

If a child reaches for a hot stove - you grasp her hand firmly, hug her tight and explain the stove is hot and will hurt her. And you do it again and again until she learns.

When you lash out and hit her hand you panic her, instill fear and possibly inhibit natural curiosity and demonstrate your own anger/fear. This is not a great set up for trying to calmly TEACH your child not to touch a stove.


edit: It's not about namby pambiness (is that a word) or negotiating or letting your get away with murder. It's about setting rules/limits and being present and consistent in enforcing them. That's how skymama's comment is relevant.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[tigra 0]

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Its when the right wing nut jobs confuse a minor spank with a beating that it is wrong.

OK, now I'm confused. I thought it was the "left wing nut jobs" that were anti-spanking and the "right wing nut jobs" that were all in favor of it! Politics and labelling gets so confusing, doesn't it?

And I'm with Skymama- I think its lazy parenting and there are better options. The fact that most of us were spanked as children and turned out OK doesn't make it right. Many of our mothers also smoked and drank alcohol throughout their pregnancies, but we know now that isn't such a great idea, right?

[skymama 35]

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edit: It's not about namby pambiness (is that a word) or negotiating or letting your get away with murder. It's about setting rules/limits and being present and consistent in enforcing them.

Exactly. It's easy to hit a child and make them stop a behavior because they fear you. Anyone can do that. It's a lot more time consuming and sometimes exhausting to stop a child during the unacceptable behavior, take them away from the situation, be firm with them/put them in time-out (whatever the situation dictates), and teach them the consequences of their actions.

My children are 19 and 17 and I can honestly say they never embarrassed me in public. If they started acting up, all it took was a snap of the fingers or the "mom" look and they behaved. It wasn't because they were afraid they were going to get spanked when they got home. They respected me.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Shotgun 1]

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However I dont see how a swat on the hand or rump could be worse than a child getting a 1st degree or possibly worse burn from putting there hand on a burner or even yet getting flattened by a car for running out in traffic.

You can physically prevent a child from doing either of those things without having to swat them. If you have time to swat them, then you have time to pull them away from the danger and possibly punish them in a different way. And if they are not old enough to understand the danger, it's probably best to keep them away from it in the first place. (Swatting them won't help them to understand the danger; it just helps them to understand that they'll be swatted by you if they do those things while you are watching.)

[Thanatos340 1]

The Hot stove is pretty poor example I think. Touching the Stove is its own education process. If a Childs touches a hot stove and doesn’t learn, Then the child has a learning disability. Either way punishing a child for touching a hot stove is stupid and counter productive no matter how you look at it.

Defiance, Backtalk and Temper Tantrums would be a much better example. These are issues that most parents will have to deal with at times. Allowing these behavior patterns to continue unchecked is a sure way to create a problem child.

Cuddling the child is not going to solve these problems. Talking to and/or negotiating with the child is NOT going to solve these problems. A Firm, Strong crystal clear message that this behavior will not be tolerated will address this problem. This may or may not lead to eventual Spanking. Each child is different and there is no one way to fix everything. What works on one child may be completely ineffective on another.

My Daughter is now 16 and very well adjusted (so far, so good). I have spanked her exactly TWICE in her life. Once when she was 3 for hitting my mother. By that time she knew hitting was wrong but chose to do it anyway. I showed her that her actions had consequences in no uncertain terms. Her next Spanking was when she was 8. She was being very defiant and disrespectful. I warned her that her behavior was unacceptable and if it continued she would get a spanking. She said “If you spank me I will report you for child abuse”. I spanked her ass, handed her the phone and walked away. She later apologized and to this day I haven’t not had too much of an issue with Defiance and back talk.

Now generally the biggest problem Me and Her Mother have with her is getting her to clean her Room. Her Mom prefers the Yell and scream method which I think is completely ineffective and a total waste of time and energy. When I am finally called about the problem, my solution much simpler. She is not allowed out of the room till it is clean. No Talking about it, No Negotiating, If it takes two days.. It takes two days. Her problem, not mine. My way works every time (Usually with-in an hour or two, the room is clean and the crisis is over.)

Parenting is very complex and I know I don’t always make the right decisions, No parent does. But getting a point through to a child can be very challenging. There are times when we are left with nothing other than a good old fashion Ass Whipping to get the point across. It does work and has worked for 1000`s of years. But I think it also hould be a last resort once other method have been tried and those have failed.

[freeflybella 0]

I like your parenting style, I think. I'm in favor of things like not coming out of the room until it's clean.

But I personally think both of your examples for spanking sent mixed messages. One "that you shouldn't hit but when you do I'm going to hit you" and two, "that you can push my buttons and I'll dive right into your drama". You took a dare from your teenager in the heat of an argument.

In my opinion (which means nothing at all, really) you could've raised
your daughter (and really you actually did) without ever spanking her. Lo and behold! You said it yourself - so far so good!
There are ALWAYS other methods. They might not be immediate. They might require more energy than you're willing to expend at any particular time - but there are other methods.

You found them throughout SIXTEEN years of raising your daughter.

Both of her spankings were for show.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[peregrinerose 0]

How to deal with a child going for a hot stove is going to be age dependent. A 2 year old can't understand rationalization without experiencing it. I remember being about 3 and my parents had lit candles that made this Christmas decoration go round and round, which made bells ring. I was transfixed by it and it was at eye level. I wanted to touch the candle flame because it was pretty. They rationalized with me, just like you did, but with out experiencing what a burn was, I had no idea what it meant to get burned or hurt in that way. Sure enough, I eventually touched the flame, got a burn and blister. That experience taught me what 'hot' and 'burn' meant in ways that just talking about it couldn't. Some things need to be experienced to be truly understood. Once the 2-3 year old understands what a burn is, it's much easier to take that 'burn' sense and transfer it to a stove... remember what the candle did? Stoves can do that too.

There's a fine line between protection/education and over protection. Either way, teaching can be done effectively without physical violence.

Although if my adopted 9 year old is running into traffic, contract or not I'm going to tackle that kid!

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[freeflybella 0]

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How to deal with a child going for a hot stove is going to be age dependent. A 2 year old can't understand rationalization without experiencing it. I remember being about 3 and my parents had lit candles that made this Christmas decoration go round and round, which made bells ring. I was transfixed by it and it was at eye level. I wanted to touch the candle flame because it was pretty. They rationalized with me, just like you did, but with out experiencing what a burn was, I had no idea what it meant to get burned or hurt in that way. Sure enough, I eventually touched the flame, got a burn and blister. That experience taught me what 'hot' and 'burn' meant in ways that just talking about it couldn't. Some things need to be experienced to be truly understood. Once the 2-3 year old understands what a burn is, it's much easier to take that 'burn' sense and transfer it to a stove... remember what the candle did? Stoves can do that too.

There's a fine line between protection/education and over protection. Either way, teaching can be done effectively without physical violence.

Although if my adopted 9 year old is running into traffic, contract or not I'm going to tackle that kid!

Agreed that the concept of hot cannot generally be taught without experiencing hot. Although neither yourself nor I would burn a kid on purpose!

I'm not advocating rationalizing to a 2 year old per se. In other words, I don't really expect them to internalize it yet. But they get the point. They understand the tone and the repeated admonitions. And, if it's imminent danger and or the kid just won't listen, it's the parent's responsibility to clear their reach of danger. In other words, that candle shouldn't have been touchable when you proved that you were intent on touching it!

My son turned 3 last week and has never touched a hot stove. He learned hot by accidentally touching a lightbulb a long time ago. Whenever he needs to be reminded about the stove I remind him about the lightbulb. No biggie.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[peregrinerose 0]

There are exceptions to the cuddling thing too though. I would have agreed with you on this until the example was brought up in class regarding attachment disorders. Some kids never bonded with their primary care giver, that cuddling was never there. As an infant, they screamed and no one came to feed them, cuddle them, change their diaper, there was no safety no sense of security. In some cases with some kids, cuddling is exactly what they need when they scream or act out, to create that bond. Some kids take years of this in order to learn how to bond to another human being.

Parenting and child behavior is far more complex than I had originally thought. I knew it was complicated, but there are so many more variables than I had considered prior to taking these classes. The bottom line is that every kid is different and requires different tools to teach them appropriate mechanisms for dealing with the world. Violence isn't one of those tools though (self defense excepting)

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Thanatos340 1]

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Both of her spankings were for show.

Both were to get a point across. By addressing the problems immediately, I think I saved myself from having to do it more often later on.

I think we most likely agree more than disagree. You say no spanking at all. I say only as a last resort but there are times when they are called for.

It is when the child already knows right from wrong and know they should not be doing something and choose to do it anyway that discipline is really necessary. These are the times that we as parents must somehow get the point across to them that their actions have consequences. If you tried time out and/or Restriction already and the behavior continues.. consider other options.

By the same token, If a parent has tried Spanking for a certain behavior and that behavior continues.. Consider other options. There is no one fix all for raising a child.

A parents Responsibilities are to:
1) Protect
2) Teach
3) Comfort
4) Discipline

All of these things are Important in raising any child. Find the right balance will always be difficult for all parents.

[bodypilot90 0]

how many kids have you raised?

[freeflybella 0]

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There are exceptions to the cuddling thing too though. I would have agreed with you on this until the example was brought up in class regarding attachment disorders. Some kids never bonded with their primary care giver, that cuddling was never there. As an infant, they screamed and no one came to feed them, cuddle them, change their diaper, there was no safety no sense of security. In some cases with some kids, cuddling is exactly what they need when they scream or act out, to create that bond. Some kids take years of this in order to learn how to bond to another human being.

Parenting and child behavior is far more complex than I had originally thought. I knew it was complicated, but there are so many more variables than I had considered prior to taking these classes. The bottom line is that every kid is different and requires different tools to teach them appropriate mechanisms for dealing with the world. Violence isn't one of those tools though (self defense excepting)

So good that you're learning about attachment disorders. My mother is an adoption social worker and attachment disorder therapist.

Presumably one's own child isn't suffering from attachment disorder, but it is possible that connections and attachments with parents can be weakened and strengthened through everyday interactions. There is a school of thought that excessive tantrums in the toddler stage are a result of needing more attention/connection/understanding rather than an expression of defiance.

I often find with my son, when he cries and gets angry, that he needs a little space to work it out on his own (with me right nearby of course) and then a LOT of cuddle time. Of course that doesn't mean giving him the gum he insisted on having in the first place. I say no, I mean no, I let him express himself and then show him that I care enough about him to explain why he can't have the gum.

But I don't get sucked into his emotions. (Ok, I'm a single mama, sometimes when I'm drained or tired, I do get sucked in. Who is perfect?) It's my job to guide and teach and be an example of how to be a person in the world.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[nerdgirl 0]

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how many kids have you raised?

< Tosses up the non-sequitor, trying to re-direct-to-avoid-issue flag >


Again,

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The most screwed up kids are the ones that never got one.

Is that your subjective, personal opinion, which may be fine for you? Or do you have some evidence to support that all-encompassing, definitive assertion? ... because all that's needed to prove false is one "screwed up kid" who was spanked. Remember the plural of anecdote is not data.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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I didnt fear nor was I intimidated by my parents, I am however an upstanding member of society who knows how to respect people, especially my elders and I understand that if I want something I must work for it... you dont see that quality in kids now days...

Fabulous! And as a single mom I commend you for that.

What seems to be missing is the lack of causality and correlation in some of the claims that have been made: neither spanking = good, upstanding kids nor spanking = bad, juvenile delinquents has been supported by anything other than personal, subjective anecdote.

(I'll put aside the issue of whether kids' behavior today is *really* different, whether laziness has a generational or age limit, and all the incredibly, responsible, super hard-working, super-disciplined young adults that are out there from my Girl Scout troop to the grad fellowship applicants I review every year for professional societies.)

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Shotgun 1]

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I didnt fear nor was I intimidated by my parents, I am however an upstanding member of society who knows how to respect people, especially my elders and I understand that if I want something I must work for it... you dont see that quality in kids now days...

I see that quality in plenty of kids nowadays. Certainly not in all of them, but I'm fairly sure that there was never a time when you would have seen that quality in all kids.

[Squeak 17]

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Think of obedience training with a dog - would a trainer recommend spanking / or using a paddle on a dog to get a desired reaction.... most likely not.
but.... that's just my .02

g

Um, don't they use electric shock collars to train dogs?

i use them to train my kids

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[bjjman 0]

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There's no one answer that is right for EVERYONE.

Right-on, mnealtx.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[Squeak 17]

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Both of her spankings were for show.

Both were to get a point across. By addressing the problems immediately, I think I saved myself from having to do it more often later on.

I think we most likely agree more than disagree. You say no spanking at all. I say only as a last resort but there are times when they are called for.

It is when the child already knows right from wrong and know they should not be doing something and choose to do it anyway that discipline is really necessary. These are the times that we as parents must somehow get the point across to them that their actions have consequences. If you tried time out and/or Restriction already and the behavior continues.. consider other options.

By the same token, If a parent has tried Spanking for a certain behavior and that behavior continues.. Consider other options. There is no one fix all for raising a child.

A parents Responsibilities are to:
1) Protect
2) Teach
3) Comfort
4) Discipline

All of these things are Important in raising any child. Find the right balance will always be difficult for all parents.

This is a very good post.
I'm not a parent, but i work with kids with many and varied problems.
I am by law not allowed to spank the kids i work with so alternative strategies must be employed. This is often a labour intensive and time consuming process. At times nothing we do works, and we lose a kids to the juvenile justice system.
There are times however that i wonder if (for a select few ) a slap would not just get the message across a lot faster and in no uncertain terms.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[freeflybella 0]

Why aren't you allowed to slap the kids you work with?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[bodypilot90 0]

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< Tosses up the non-sequitor, trying to re-direct-to-avoid-issue flag >

you can read books on skydiving, canopy control packing but until you have done it, you do not know anything about how to skydive. Same with raising kids! I have raised my own and helped with problem kids of others, drove school bus. I know a thing or two about kids.

My point is, do you?