Anti-spanking letter

[jcd11235 0]

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Sorry - I erased your name in the subject line so it wouldn't be a direct reply to you - but I guess by quoting you it was implied. Didn't mean to!

No problem.

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[bodypilot90 0]

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Definitively, what is the difference?

Spanking is done out of love.
Beating out of anger.

[jcd11235 0]

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Definitively, what is the difference?

Spanking is done out of love.
Beating out of anger.

I see. So if a few bones are broken, or there are internal injuries, it's just a spanking if it was done out of love?

BTW, did you ever find any actual evidence to support the assertion you made earlier in this thread?

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[Andy9o8 0]

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Definitively, what is the difference?

Spanking is done out of love.
Beating out of anger.

Bullshit. Most spanking I've seen has been done out of the anger of the moment. And Mommie Dearest (Joan Crawford) beat out of love.

[mnealtx 0]

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Definitively, what is the difference?

Spanking is done out of love.
Beating out of anger.

I see. So if a few bones are broken, or there are internal injuries, it's just a spanking if it was done out of love?

BTW, did you ever find any actual evidence to support the assertion you made earlier in this thread?

I'm unaware of any bones or internal organs contained within the gluteus maximus....nice exaggeration, though, and illustrative of those that cannot grasp the difference between the two terms.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jcd11235 0]

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I'm unaware of any bones or internal organs contained within the gluteus maximus....nice exaggeration, though, and illustrative of those that cannot grasp the difference between the two terms.

Just illustrating that there doesn't appear to be a definitive distinction between spanking and beating.

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[bodypilot90 0]

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Just illustrating that there doesn't appear to be a definitive distinction between spanking and beating.

What you have done is shown you have a lot to learn about rasing kids. No I have never seen a spanking even come close to breaking bones, I have beat the shit out of someone and broke his leg. He was not a child and he was a thief.

I had a family living around me that did not spank and they were the worse kids in the "hood" when Ms liberal could no longer control the oldest they took him to juvie hall. I raise a few kids of my own, help raise a few and drove not a few on school bus, ect ect, ect. I received a large number of spankings growing up. Never had a single bone broke, funny how you do not get it.

Now how many do you have? How did you become a "expert"?

[crozby 0]

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Did you read any of the well-thought out and reasoned posts in this thread by thanatos, for example?

Yes, and I almost entirely agree with him, but more so with feeflybella.

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coming home drunk and hitting your wife is not discipline. it's not done out of love, but out of anger. Funny, but spanking is the COMPLETE opposite.

Like someone else here already said: Spanking is more often than not done out of anger. (The idea that it is done out of love is kind of humerous.)

Regardless of that you're really missing my point which is that people who claim to think hitting their children is perfectly ok can't bring themselves to say the actual words "I hit my children" and instead use cuddly words like swatting and batting.

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yup. spanking sure ruined us!

Well given that you youself were hit as a child and as a grown up you now think its ok to hit children I'm not sure your sarcasm is very appropriate.

If you said "Well I got spanked as a child and I don't spank my kids so it clearly didn't damage me" you might have a point. But you didn't, so you don't.

[Baksteen 84]

Oh come on - there is a huge difference between spanking and hitting, though I admit there are those who confuse physical abuse with disciplin.

I was spanked exactly once and I hardly even felt the swat. And boy, did I earn it
In itself, I'm not against spanking - but any disciplinary action which leaves marks is going way to far. I completely agree that children need to be protected.

I have no kids of my own, but in the sixteen years that I have supervised children during summer camp I have seen all kinds.
With some it's 'disappointment' which works best, others you talk to severely, yet others have to be yelled at.
Only one child came close to being too much to handle, until I found that I needed to disciplin him, ignore further bad behaviour and reward good behaviour, for instance, ignoring statements containing the word "dickhead", but answering questions starting with "Dennis", as he sometimes forgot he was angry when seeing something interesting or confusing.
But whichever way works best, it's not about the punishment itself, it's about showing them Authority.

And for those of you who now see me as a volatile monster, if something's wrong it's ME they run to, not the 'please do not do that sweety' crowd*).
Why? Because i have also learnt that you must not only be able to discipline child #1 but also to in the same breath turn around to comfort child #2 who has been stung by a wasp or whatever. be fair, in other words.


*) I don't mean the posters on here, but the kind of person who keeps telling the children not to do that 'or else you get punished' and then simply ignore the child when they continue misbehaving.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[peregrinerose 0]

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Oh come on - there is a huge difference between spanking and hitting, though I admit there are those who confuse physical abuse with disciplin.

I was spanked exactly once and I hardly even felt the swat. And boy, did I earn it
In itself, I'm not against spanking - but any disciplinary action which leaves marks is going way to far. I completely agree that children need to be protected.

I have no kids of my own, but in the sixteen years that I have supervised children during summer camp I have seen all kinds.
With some it's 'disappointment' which works best, others you talk to severely, yet others have to be yelled at.
Only one child came close to being too much to handle, until I found that I needed to disciplin him, ignore further bad behaviour and reward good behaviour, for instance, ignoring statements containing the word "dickhead", but answering questions starting with "Dennis", as he sometimes forgot he was angry when seeing something interesting or confusing.
But whichever way works best, it's not about the punishment itself, it's about showing them Authority.

And for those of you who now see me as a volatile monster, if something's wrong it's ME they run to, not the 'please do not do that sweety' crowd*).
Why? Because i have also learnt that you must not only be able to discipline child #1 but also to in the same breath turn around to comfort child #2 who has been stung by a wasp or whatever. be fair, in other words.

I agree that some kids respond differently to some punishments. I took care of two girls age 8 and 12 for almost a year... dad was never home, mom was addicted to Rx pain meds and always out of it. The younger girl loved to be the center of attention, so if she did something wrong, she sat at the dining room table, by herself, for some time. It killed her, she sat and cried, but she only had to do it one time (for hiding in the grocery store and scaring the living crap out of me when I couldn't find her). The older girl was much more sensitive and being older, easier to rationalize with. She lied to me one time. All I had to do to nip that in the but was tell her I was extremely dissappointed in her. She never did it again.

Had I switched consequences between the girls, it would have been completely ineffective.

I do NOT agree that there is a 'huge difference between spanking and hitting'. It's a pretty fine line. I can tell you I was spanked. Nearly every day. Until I left home at 17. Sounds like I was just a bad kid, it's not so bad. But then I can let you know that the spankings started with a swat on the butt with the hand, then moved up to a harder swat that left hand prints, then wooden spoons, then the wooden spoons kept breaking when they were used, so they switched over to a plywood paddle that didn't break. That one left welts and cuts, split the skin.

Where in that continuum did spanking go from acceptable to not? Is it an age? You can't rationalize with a 2 year old but a quick swat on the butt gets their attention very quickly. You can rationalize with a 12 year old and come up with more appropriate consequences. Is it the power behind the swat? No marks is ok, but a hand print is not? Is it the implement used? Wooden spoon ok, but paddle not? Where do you draw the line? And just like the girls mentioned above... if I didn't use their consequences appropriately, they would have been completely ineffective. Spankings are a tool, but used in a manner that confuses or scares the child isn't going to teach them anything.

I also strongly disagree with is that punishment is teaching Authority... that should NEVER be the goal of punishment. The goal of raising children is to teach them. It should not be so much punishment as consequences.... teach them that every thing they do has a consequence, good or bad. Good, moral, productive choices have good consequences. Bad, unethical, destructive choices result in less than favorable outcomes for the child. The goal isn't to raise an obedient monkey, but to eventually produce an adult who's a productive and ethical member of society.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against spanking. With the kids I will be adopting, though I am not permitted to use that tool, or any physical means of control at all. I just finished a solid month of training on alternative means to enforce or change behaviors, and I admit, going into this, I was irritated that I couldn't spank the kids if needed, but I've been given so many more powerful tools in the course of this education, that I'm much less concerned about losing that particular tool from my mental consequence armory.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Squeak 17]

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I had a family living around me that did not spank and they were the worse kids in the "hood" when Ms liberal could no longer control the oldest they took him to juvie hall. I raise a few kids of my own, help raise a few and drove not a few on school bus, ect ect, ect. I received a large number of spankings growing up. Never had a single bone broke, funny how you do not get it.

Now how many do you have? How did you become a "expert"?

A lot of you people seem to equate NOT spanking a child with not Disciplining a child.

It's been my experience that a well disciplined child makes for a good young adult.
a poorly disciplined child does not.

I do not believe that spanking is a MUST have tool in your arsenal for disciplining children (although I do believe that is can and does work on some).

I know lots of kids who have never been spanked, and they are well adjusted, good kids and good young adults. They have however been disciplined thought their lives.

Anyone that thinks that spanking (or NOT spanking) is what makes or breaks the behaviour of a child is either a fool or delusional.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Baksteen 84]

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Where in that continuum did spanking go from acceptable to not? Is it an age? You can't rationalize with a 2 year old but a quick swat on the butt gets their attention very quickly. You can rationalize with a 12 year old and come up with more appropriate consequences. Is it the power behind the swat? No marks is ok, but a hand print is not? Is it the implement used? Wooden spoon ok, but paddle not? Where do you draw the line?

First, I am very sorry that you have been through that, lame as that may sound.

Me, I draw the line somewhere before leaving marks, but WAY before using implements. A swat doesn't necessarily need to actually hurt in order to be punishment.
Additionally I agree with Thanatos that spanking should be a last resort after the other possibilities have been exhausted and would like to add that for a next offence the child shouldn't be simply spanked 'because that punishment worked last time too'.

***
I also strongly disagree with is that punishment is teaching Authority... that should NEVER be the goal of punishment.

[jcd11235 0]

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Just illustrating that there doesn't appear to be a definitive distinction between spanking and beating.

What you have done is shown you have a lot to learn about rasing kids. No I have never seen a spanking even come close to breaking bones, I have beat the shit out of someone and broke his leg. He was not a child and he was a thief.

I had a family living around me that did not spank and they were the worse kids in the "hood" when Ms liberal could no longer control the oldest they took him to juvie hall. I raise a few kids of my own, help raise a few and drove not a few on school bus, ect ect, ect. I received a large number of spankings growing up. Never had a single bone broke, funny how you do not get it.

Now how many do you have? How did you become a "expert"?

First, I never claimed to be an expert.

So, did you learn to break legs because you were spanked growing up, or despite it? Your self description doesn't exactly paint you as a fine upstanding citizen.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jshatzkin 0]

I had to bump this because I missed the conversation!

I used to teach parenting (most people were court mandated) classes from empirically based models. Does spanking lead to abuse? With most people, probably not. But spanking is a very ineffective parenting tool if you really think about what you are trying to accomplish in "disciplining". A child may quickly stop doing something because they are spanked, but you teach them to not do something out of fear of a spanking, not because it is the right thing to do. Spanking also teaches children that to control others, violence works.

Many people are short-sighted and think parenting and disciplining is simply a set of tools to correct a child. "Bad" and disrespectful children are not the result of "no spanking". I have known many "bad" kids who were spanked and many who were not. Raising a "good", respectful child is about your relationship with them as a parent. Do you love, feel, teach, etc. even when they are doing nothing wrong? Do you help them grow through proper nurturing from the moment they are born? Kids are going to mess up at some point,..regardless. It is part of individuating. But if you have done a good job parenting, then they will have a good foundation to make the right decisions throughout life based on their values, not fear of violence or consequences.

Having said all that: I was spanked growing up. I would not classify my parents as being abusive at all. I think I just learned more how to not get caught, then to actually do the right thing. My husband and I agree that we will not spank our child. Disciplining is about your relationship with the child, not a quick fix tool.

Jen

[PLFXpert 0]

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Where in that continuum did spanking go from acceptable to not?...

That continuum is yours. My issue isn't with a spanking in and of itself; it's with psychological differentials.

A parent raised on spankings turned out fine might not have bore a child with the same response to such stimuli. It's a fickle thing.

Most people are inapt to recognize when it's appropriate or not--sometimes (often?) through no fault of their own.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.