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freeflybella

Anti-spanking letter

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Spanking has been the preferred and effective method of parental discipline for 1000`s of years. Like any tool it can and has been abused by some. That does not mean that the tool itself is ineffective.



The same can be said of torture as a means of obtaining information from reluctant witnesses. However, experienced interrogators know that torture is ineffective and does not yield reliable information. Just because something has been done traditionally does not mean it is a good idea.

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Studies can be created to show whatever the people funding the study want it to show.



That's why science has a peer review process, both pre publication and post publication.

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Find me someone that has raised 3 or 4 Kids to adulthood and had them turn out to be well adjusted and productive members of society. I think you will the find vast majority of these people would fully support and endorse Properly applied spanking regardless what any Study said.



My parents raised three kids. It wasn't until they became grandparents that they realized that timeouts work just as well, if not better, than spankings. (They provide daycare for one of their grandkids 50-60 hours per week, so they understand they can't slack on maintaining discipline, which means they sometimes have to punish for bad behavior.)

Of my siblings and cousins' kids, the most well behaved are the ones that do not get spanked.
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What a load of tripe.
The Bible is no different than statistical studies in that if you want to set up an idea and then creatively shape the stats to support your theory, it is do-able. The Bible is clear that DISCIPLINE IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EVERY PARENT.
So, take that mandate and shape your parenting and life to IT, not the other way around.
If having a child do pushups works better than spanking (certainly did on my boys) then use that method of discipline, but don't twist and twist and twist on Scripture to make it say what you WANT it to rather than what it says.
The Bible is also clear that people who add to or subtract from the Scriptures and spread that opinion/misinformation as the word of God have a very real problem with God come the judgement day.



Apsolutely! Lets also remember that every child is different, what works for one may not work for another (time-out worked for my brother but not for me).

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Its interesting that people who are pro hitting their children rarely refer to it as that.

They seem to prefer using alternative cutsey less-threatening terms like 'spanking', 'swatting', 'batting' etc.

I wonder why? Is there something wrong with saying "I hit my children"? Is there something that feels not quite right about being that direct about it?

If a man says "I came home drunk and (non-consentually) spanked/swatted my wife a few times because she'd not made my dinner." Does his choice of words make it any less domestic violence?

In my experience if you instill discipline and respect into your children from the start you simply do not ever need to hit them to get your point across.

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I'll quote myself from previous "corporal punishment" threads:

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72.4% of Americans who favor corporal punishment of children do not have children of their own, or drive pickup trucks, or both. OK, I just made that number up.

Anyhow, the Missus & me managed to raise 2 well-mannered, ambitious kids into their late teens with attentive, frequently strict, discipline and guidance, but without ever using corporal punishment. If that makes us the exception to the rule, well, then, it does. But it is, for what it's worth, one family's story that it can be done.




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Speaking purely clinically, and not judgmentally, the simple fact is that corporal punishment is a form of physical violence and is done to inflict some degree of physical pain. Generally speaking, most acts of corporal punishment considered permissible if done to a juvenile would be deemed to be criminal assault if done to an adult.




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Ever since I was old enough to think about the issue while growing up, it's always bothered me that modern Western societies permit physical violence by adults upon children that would be criminal if done to an adult. Why is it permitted? Because children are too physically weak to defend themselves against adults; they don't have the means live independently of adults or the right to enter into contracts; they can't vote or participate in the making of the laws that affect them. And so - a least to a degree - adults are legally permitted to assault children. Yes, it may correctly be given several various labels, but assault is one of them.

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Its interesting that people who are pro hitting their children rarely refer to it as that.

They seem to prefer using alternative cutsey less-threatening terms like 'spanking', 'swatting', 'batting' etc.

I wonder why? Is there something wrong with saying "I hit my children"? Is there something that feels not quite right about being that direct about it?

If a man says "I came home drunk and (non-consentually) spanked/swatted my wife a few times because she'd not made my dinner." Does his choice of words make it any less domestic violence?

In my experience if you instill discipline and respect into your children from the start you simply do not ever need to hit them to get your point across.



You remind me of a mom who was on the Maury show several years ago about this very topic. She sat up on stage with her nose all taped up, why because her now teeange son (who was in juvie for the taping of show) had punched her in the nose. The Chief of the NYC police stood up and asked her if she had ever spanked her child when he was younger and she replied "no" because violence begats violence....:S

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Its interesting that people who are pro hitting their children rarely refer to it as that.

They seem to prefer using alternative cutsey less-threatening terms like 'spanking', 'swatting', 'batting' etc.

I wonder why? Is there something wrong with saying "I hit my children"? Is there something that feels not quite right about being that direct about it?

If a man says "I came home drunk and (non-consentually) spanked/swatted my wife a few times because she'd not made my dinner." Does his choice of words make it any less domestic violence?

In my experience if you instill discipline and respect into your children from the start you simply do not ever need to hit them to get your point across.



You remind me of a mom who was on the Maury show several years ago about this very topic. She sat up on stage with her nose all taped up, why because her now teeange son (who was in juvie for the taping of show) had punched her in the nose. The Chief of the NYC police stood up and asked her if she had ever spanked her child when he was younger and she replied "no" because violence begats violence....:S


The Maury Show ?!

blink. blink.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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Its interesting that people who are pro hitting their children rarely refer to it as that.

They seem to prefer using alternative cutsey less-threatening terms like 'spanking', 'swatting', 'batting' etc.

I wonder why? Is there something wrong with saying "I hit my children"? Is there something that feels not quite right about being that direct about it?

If a man says "I came home drunk and (non-consentually) spanked/swatted my wife a few times because she'd not made my dinner." Does his choice of words make it any less domestic violence?

In my experience if you instill discipline and respect into your children from the start you simply do not ever need to hit them to get your point across.



You remind me of a mom who was on the Maury show several years ago about this very topic. She sat up on stage with her nose all taped up, why because her now teeange son (who was in juvie for the taping of show) had punched her in the nose. The Chief of the NYC police stood up and asked her if she had ever spanked her child when he was younger and she replied "no" because violence begats violence....:S


The Maury Show ?!

blink. blink.


By several years ago I mean before his show became a Jerry Springer copy cat of sorts. When it was still worth watching....

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Its interesting that people who are pro hitting their children rarely refer to it as that.

They seem to prefer using alternative cutsey less-threatening terms like 'spanking', 'swatting', 'batting' etc.

I wonder why? Is there something wrong with saying "I hit my children"? Is there something that feels not quite right about being that direct about it?

If a man says "I came home drunk and (non-consentually) spanked/swatted my wife a few times because she'd not made my dinner." Does his choice of words make it any less domestic violence?

In my experience if you instill discipline and respect into your children from the start you simply do not ever need to hit them to get your point across.



Did you read any of the well-thought out and reasoned posts in this thread by thanatos, for example?

coming home drunk and hitting your wife is not discipline. it's not done out of love, but out of anger. Funny, but spanking is the COMPLETE opposite.

Yep. I was spanked.

Nope, i don't have kids. but when i do, spanking will be in my toolbox to use as a very last resort.

All 3 of us (my siblings and i) were spanked. We turned out an air force academy graduate, a chemistry PhD, and a Biology/Library science MS degree among the three of us. Not one of us got arrested, drank underage in high school, did drugs, or basically went crazy when growing up.

yup. spanking sure ruined us! :D
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

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It's apalling that only 2 posters - Andy908 and crozby - (if I overlooked another one: sorry!) honestly are taking kids' part here. I am a parent and fully 2nd their opinions.

Just would like to add one thing: Just to imagine that my hand, which used to caress my kids' silky cheeks- and still does - is beating same kid, is absolutely beyond my imagination.

BTW: Beat a dog - and then feed it with same hand :S Have a look into the eyes of that dog ..... I know, a lame example but, the best I could find right now.

[:/]


dudeist skydiver # 3105

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And you are entitled to your opinion. If not spanking works for you, great. But I was spanked and rightly so. I turned out just fine. My children have all gotten a few spankings and they are wonderful children. Different strokes for different folks.
The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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It's apalling that only 2 posters - Andy908 and crozby - (if I overlooked another one: sorry!) honestly are taking kids' part here. I am a parent and fully 2nd their opinions.



A number of us have advocated not spanking kids in this thread, some explicitly, some implicitly, including myself. :)
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A number of us have advocated not spanking kids in this thread, some explicitly, some implicitly, myself, nerdgirl and peregrinerose to name a few. :)



Please put me in the parental choice category. In an ideal world, I would prefer it not be used.

I'm more definitive on things like opposition to proliferation of bugs, gas, shiny-metal-death; torture; etc. and opposition to conclusions that assert subjective anecdote as data and confuses low-n subjective experience with correlation and causation.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

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All 3 of us (my siblings and i) were spanked. We turned out an air force academy graduate, a chemistry PhD, and a Biology/Library science MS degree among the three of us. Not one of us got arrested, drank underage in high school, did drugs, or basically went crazy when growing up.

yup. spanking sure ruined us! :D



I don't think there is a single person out there who is going to say that every child who was spanked will have lasting effects.

I think the idea is, that spanking doesn't ever need to be done, there are other, more effective methods out there.

And if that is the case, why not take a collective stand against a practice that has the potential to do harm - potential to harm a child even when done "right", potential to be done out of anger (many parents admit to having spanked in the heat of the moment), potential to be overused, potential to lead to actual abuse by parents, etc.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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>I think the idea is, that spanking doesn't ever need to be done, there
>are other, more effective methods out there.

Agreed. It is certainly not the most effective method, and is a bad idea 99% of the time.

>And if that is the case, why not take a collective stand against a
>practice that has the potential to do harm . . .

Because not disciplining a child can do harm as well. And the best person to decide that is the parents, not the government.

Abortion is a similar choice. It obviously harms the fetus far more than spanking harms a child, and I am completely against it. But the parents and their doctor are a better person than I to make that call. I'm not there.

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Because not disciplining a child can do harm as well.



As much as I believe spanking to be an inferior method of instilling discipline, I must acknowledge that discipline instilled via spanking is superior, and better serves the child's interests, than not instilling discipline at all.
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....

You are assuming that spanking/corporal punishment correlates with personal responsibility.

Do you have anything other than personal anecdote to support that?

Historically, crime rates were much higher in past (i.e., pre-1900) when there were no restrictions on corporal punishment.

Fear and intimidation does not equal respect.

VR/Marg



So true.

It's an evidence of incapacity that it needs laws to protect kids, a law we have here in Germany. It's against the law to spank your own kids. If it helps, if only for one kid .....[:/] It's not working that fine.

Kids are the weakest parts of society chain. Helpless, punching bag for disillusioned parent(s) >:(>:( .....

They should get all assistance available, if it's by law or enlightment (of the adults, of course).

How significant is it that some pro-spanking posters in this thread agree to spank the youngest kids ? In the age of 3 to let's say 8??? How abnormal is that? The smaller the easier is it to smite a person?

B|

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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Because not disciplining a child can do harm as well.



As much as I believe spanking to be an inferior method of instilling discipline, I must acknowledge that discipline instilled via spanking is superior, and better serves the child's interests, than not instilling discipline at all.



The opposite of spanking is NOT no discipline!

No one is suggesting you quit spanking and let your kid do whatever s/he wants.

Just don't even go there with spanking. Just don't. Advocate discipline. Advocate consistency. Advocate anything but spanking.

It drives me nuts when spanking discussions come down to the argument that either you spank or there is no discipline at all.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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In the past I have spent a good deal of time in Germany and Sweden. Easily 66% of the parents I observed there let their kids run wild and provided no discipline whatsoever. The same thing is becoming more common in the US as well.

ANd what is with the smiting term? We are talking about "spanking." Spanking and beating are two different things and you know it.
The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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In the past I have spent a good deal of time in Germany and Sweden. Easily 66% of the parents I observed there let their kids run wild and provided no discipline whatsoever. The same thing is becoming more common in the US as well.

ANd what is with the smiting term? We are talking about "spanking." Spanking and beating are two different things and you know it.



Yes, you and me know the difference. But a kid of 3? How will it understand the "little slap on the head or the butt"??? Completely different for the liittle midget. Don't you know that?

Back to semi final of European soccer B|B|B|

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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Because not disciplining a child can do harm as well.



As much as I believe spanking to be an inferior method of instilling discipline, I must acknowledge that discipline instilled via spanking is superior, and better serves the child's interests, than not instilling discipline at all.



The opposite of spanking is NOT no discipline!

No one is suggesting you quit spanking and let your kid do whatever s/he wants.

Just don't even go there with spanking. Just don't. Advocate discipline. Advocate consistency. Advocate anything but spanking.

It drives me nuts when spanking discussions come down to the argument that either you spank or there is no discipline at all.



He didn't say that. He said that, while he disagrees with spanking, that it is better than no disciplinary action at all.

YOU have a problem with spanking and believe it's harmful - that's fine. There is *NO* empirical evidence, however, that spanking is always harmful - proven out by the many posters here that HAVE been spanked as children. Conversely, there is *NO* empirical evidence that spanking is always beneficial, as well.

As I said *waaaaay* up-thread - it's not a black/white discussion.

  • For some children, spanking is an effective form of discipline.


  • For some children, spanking is an ineffective form of discipline.


  • The points above are ENTIRELY dependent upon the child and how they respond to disciplinary actions.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, about 90 percent of U.S. parents spank, and about 59 percent of pediatricians in a 1992 survey said they support the practice.



Do you have statistics more recent than 26 years ago? I bet those numbers are different now.

By the way, the American Academy of Pediatrics does not support spanking. They encourage other forms of discipline.

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To clarify my previous post:
((discipline && (!spanking)) > (discipline && spanking)) && ((discipline && spanking) > (!discipline));


To clarify this one:
((discipline && spanking) > (!discipline)) != ((!spanking) == (!discipline));
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