Do you think that Genetic Memory exists?

[shropshire 0]

I was thinking (a rare and dangerous thing); Is instinct really Genetic Memory? and think that maybe it could be.

If it is, then could other information be passed from generation to generation? Could this be what some people describe as thoughts of being another (often long since dead) person?

My only problem with that would be that some people describe the death of that earlier person and that just does not follow the genetic transfer memory model, because the only time that memory could be passed to a later generation is at conception for male memories (actually, more likely at the time that the sperm was created) or birth (or egg creation, if that is the last time that genetic material is passed[?]) for female memories. Anything that occurred after that instant in time could not be passed down.

If it does exist, then why don't we all remember our parents (and grandparents etc..) early memories. What would be the point of such a phenomena?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jcd11235 0]

Jung seemed to believe so.

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[shropshire 0]

um.... never heard of him (?) I'll google.....

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jcd11235 0]

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um.... never heard of him (?) I'll google.....

Good starting points:

Carl Jung
Collective unconscious

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[quade 3]

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Is instinct really Genetic Memory?

Only at the most basic level; to breathe, to eat, to fear heights, to fear loud noises . . . only the most basic of coding allowed by the very limited amount of bandwidth not being taken up by things like; how to make a eye, how to make an ear . . .

Anything more complex simply doesn't fit in the space available.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,259]

It sounds like you are thinking of something like Lamarckian evolutionary theory, which postulates that animals pass on characteristics obtained during their lives. Since the discovery of genetics his ideas have been pretty much wholly discarded.

Wiki

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[shropshire 0]

DNA appears to be massive but I wouldn't know how much data or information that could be held.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[shropshire 0]

Wow... I'm learning loads of new stuff today.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 2,435]

>Is instinct really Genetic Memory?

Yes. Very basic instincts - fear of heights, fear of certain animals, desire to copulate, avoidance of pain, fear of death/decay/disease are instincts that are, if you will, programmed into us. We're usually able to overcome them if needed though, which is a learned response.

>If it is, then could other information be passed from generation to
>generation? Could this be what some people describe as thoughts of being
>another (often long since dead) person?

In a way, yes. If you look at a woman and feel lust, you can be pretty sure your father felt something similar. But "The Professor did it in the conservatory with the candlestick, I remember now!" - not really. The only memories that can be passed on are those that are encoded in DNA, and ordinary memories do not code the DNA in our gametes.

[shropshire 0]

Thanks.

So these folks that 'remember' past lives? Real or imagined?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[quade 3]

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Thanks.

So these folks that 'remember' past lives? Real or imagined?

I'm going to have to put that in the deluded category.

It certainly doesn't hold up to any form of scrutiny.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,435]

>So these folks that 'remember' past lives? Real or imagined?

I think many people have memories of past lives they think are real. Memory is incredibly mutable; there have been countless studies on people who are otherwise quite reliable who are 'tricked' into remembering incorrect information. Doesn't make those memories literally real, of course.

But it's also important to remember that in many cases they're not just "making shit up." The memories are real to them, wherever they came from.

[quade 3]

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But it's also important to remember that in many cases they're not just "making shit up." The memories are real to them, wherever they came from.

But bill, the question was whether the past lives are real or imagined.

Clearly the past lives aren't "real" even if the person may profoundly believe otherwise.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,435]

>But bill, the question was whether the past lives are real or imagined.

Well, I would suggest those two aren't the only choices. (Is dropzone.com real or imagined?) The "past lives" people describe may indeed exist, and they may have valid and accurate memories of them. The issue is that there is no biological causal connection between them.

Thing I always found curious about past lives is that people always discover that in a past life they were burned as a witch, or was a friend of Socrates, or was a Civil War general. Not as many dirt poor farmers or shepherds, although there are a lot more of them than Civil War generals.

[shropshire 0]

I can't believe that the 'Burnt as a Witch' folks are real, because you couldn't inherit that memory so a completely different mechanism would be required and that would be too far fetched [even] for me.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SpeedRacer 1]

and how many women have claimed to have been Cleopatra in a past life? Cleopatra must have had valet parking for all the people who wanted to be her.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[skydyvr 0]

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I can't believe that the 'Burnt as a Witch' folks are real, because you couldn't inherit that memory so a completely different mechanism would be required and that would be too far fetched [even] for me.

The mechanism would have to be spiritually based, which I believe Billvon meant to imply.

. . =(_8^(1)

[BIGUN 1,073]

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>Is instinct really Genetic Memory?

Yes. Very basic instincts - fear of heights, fear of certain animals, desire to copulate, avoidance of pain, fear of death/decay/disease are instincts that are, if you will, programmed into us. We're usually able to overcome them if needed though, which is a learned response.

>If it is, then could other information be passed from generation to
>generation? Could this be what some people describe as thoughts of being
>another (often long since dead) person?

In a way, yes. If you look at a woman and feel lust, you can be pretty sure your father felt something similar. But "The Professor did it in the conservatory with the candlestick, I remember now!" - not really. The only memories that can be passed on are those that are encoded in DNA, and ordinary memories do not code the DNA in our gametes.

From an early biology class, I also remember something about Genetic Resistance to Disease (?). For example, when at the turn of the 20th century, Influenza was killing hundreds of thousands, over the next three generations a form of resistance or tolerance was passed from one generation to the next. Something like that? Although I don't know if that matches the exact intent of the OP's, "Genetic Memory?"

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[quade 3]

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Thing I always found curious about past lives is that people always discover that in a past life they were burned as a witch, or was a friend of Socrates, or was a Civil War general. Not as many dirt poor farmers or shepherds, although there are a lot more of them than Civil War generals.

Actually bill, if you wanna get silly, this would be fairly easy to explain.

[goes into deep trance to channel the wisdom of the ages]

It's a bit like using one candle to light others.

The first candle lights two and those two candles light another two each. The flames of the four are descended from the past lives of the original and while the middle two may have been quite mundane, the original may have been "special" for some reason and, after all, it's the "specialness" that we're all seeking to discover.

So it only goes to follow that while there may be plenty of dirt poor farmers and shepherds in the mix, many more people will naturally find the Generals in their histories.

[/deep trance]

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,435]

> For example, when at the turn of the 20th century, Influenza was
>killing hundreds of thousands, over the next three generations a form of
>resistance or tolerance was passed from one generation to the next.

Close. Some people had some natural resistance to the disease when it began. After a few decades, they were the only ones (genetically) left.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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It sounds like you are thinking of something like Lamarckian evolutionary theory, which postulates that animals pass on characteristics obtained during their lives. Since the discovery of genetics his ideas have been pretty much wholly discarded.

Wiki

How would you explain the fact that William McDougall observed that if you train rats to solve a maze, it takes them 165 times on average to learn--but after a few generations, their descendants take only 20 times to learn?

Also I recall reading--so far haven't been able to find the reference--that rats in Europe were trained to run a maze, and then rats in America--with no contact with the European rats--were able to solve the same maze much faster.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[BIGUN 1,073]

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Close. Some people had some natural resistance to the disease when it began. After a few decades, they were the only ones (genetically) left.

Yep, close. I received a "point" and was doing some homework on innate vs. acquired immunity - such that (in the early stages of my homework) would appear; it has to be innate immunity (based on genetics to be passed along). Acquired immunity can't be passed along. Thanks, Bill.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,435]

>William McDougall observed that if you train rats to solve a maze, it
>takes them 165 times on average to learn--but after a few generations,
>their descendants take only 20 times to learn?

Note that other experiments showed this phenomenon even when the rats were NOT descended from the rats that ran the experiment earlier. In other words, the maze seemed to be getting easier; the rats were not 'inheriting' the information.

Explanations range from the "morphogenic" field (sort of like The Force but for genetics) to a rat's innate ability to tell where other rats have gone earlier, whether through smell, taste, observation of scratchmarks etc.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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How would you explain the fact that William McDougall observed that if you train rats to solve a maze, it takes them 165 times on average to learn--but after a few generations, their descendants take only 20 times to learn?

Also I recall reading--so far haven't been able to find the reference--that rats in Europe were trained to run a maze, and then rats in America--with no contact with the European rats--were able to solve the same maze much faster.

Here's the link:

rats learn behavior from across the world

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[quade 3]

This is also known as the "hundredth monkey effect", which is also complete and utter horse crap.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver