President Bush and Torture

[KelliJ 0]

Well said.

[likearock 1]

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Well said.

Right. Too bad McCain seems to have done a complete 180 on the issue.

[PLFXpert 0]

Not the same thing--witches.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing just yet. Just wanting something more than "make the pain stop" for someone who might think themselves a martyr.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[loumeinhart 0]

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All strawman arguments. Your skills are weak.

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Those are questions not arguments.

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[loumeinhart 0]

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Lots of people do yell at China and Iran. If you've missed that you must really not be paying attention!

I haven't heard Ed or Dianne yell at China or Iran.

[jakee 1,257]

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All strawman arguments. Your skills are weak.

Those are questions not arguments.

They were rhetorical questions intended to convey your view on the subject. And they were silly.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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Lots of people do yell at China and Iran. If you've missed that you must really not be paying attention!

I haven't heard Ed or Dianne yell at China or Iran.

I don't know who Ed and Dianne are. I do know there is enough condemnation of China and Iran from enough people to get the point across. We think they suck. Like really, really suck. You'll have to let me know how that excuses our own immoral actions though.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[loumeinhart 0]

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They were rhetorical questions intended to convey your view on the subject. And they were silly.

OK, umm I have NO background in counter-terrorism, NO security background, NO interrogation background, NO geo-political background, and NO law enforcement background.

So, I'm asking, what - should - we - do - instead? It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm asking because I don't know.

Don't give me a big complex answer. I want to know what we should do if we need information from someone, have reason to believe they have that information, and we need to get it from them?

Again, I'm asking because I don't know. That's all.

[jakee 1,257]

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OK, umm I have NO background in counter-terrorism, NO security background, NO interrogation background, NO geo-political background, and NO law enforcement background.

So, I'm asking, what - should - we - do - instead? It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm asking because I don't know.

Ok then. To address your questions again:

"Should we not interrogate at all?" No. That's silly.

"Not detain for that matter?" No. That's silly.

"Not even investigate or monitor?" No. That's silly.

"What if we need to get information from a person who we suspect has it?" We interrogate them, but we don't use torture to do so.

2 points about your questions: the first 3 questions you pose point to a belief that we can either do everything to a terror suspect or nothing. This is, of course, silly. Not torturing suspects does not mean we cannot interrogate, detain or surveil them. Why would it?

Secondly, torture is not effective. Not only is torture ethically wrong, it often gives bad intel that is worse than useless. Here's a document I posted in a previous thread, called "Educing Information" by the Intelligence Science Board. It should be informative.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[vortexring 0]

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This man brings dishonor to all Americans.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/08/bush.torture.ap/index.html

Yeah. And if McCain gets in there it's gonna be "same ole shit, different day"

Well it could be:

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

This thread is too serious to start flippantly quoting 'The Who.'

We all know success....

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 18]

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This man brings dishonor to all Americans.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/08/bush.torture.ap/index.html

Bull shit


Twist all you want. I am proud of his stance

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[vortexring 0]

Would I be right in assuming you're therefore proud of Dubya? A monkey? A fucking idiot of the highest order?

If my assumption is correct, can you please explain your pride concerning this complete fool, who, along with his other idiot fools, has virtually destroyed americas standing throughout the world, and numerous innocent people too. Great.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 18]

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Would I be right in assuming you're therefore proud of Dubya? A monkey? A fucking idiot of the highest order?

If my assumption is correct, can you please explain your pride concerning this complete fool, who, along with his other idiot fools, has virtually destroyed americas standing throughout the world, and numerous innocent people too. Great.

As long as you need to insult him I know he is on the right track.

Fool? Destroyed the US? Cant back any of that up. You dont like him? Fine, I really dont give a fuck becaus you are not from here.. As for the rest of your assurtions? WAFJ

Idot fools are all over the place. He aint one of them.

Do I like all he has done and the way he handled some things? Not even close. Does he desrsere the shit you just flung? Not even close

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[vortexring 0]

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Would I be right in assuming you're therefore proud of Dubya? A monkey? A fucking idiot of the highest order?

If my assumption is correct, can you please explain your pride concerning this complete fool, who, along with his other idiot fools, has virtually destroyed americas standing throughout the world, and numerous innocent people too. Great.

As long as you need to insult him I know he is on the right track.

Fool? Destroyed the US? Cant back any of that up. You dont like him? Fine, I really dont give a fuck becaus you are not from here.. As for the rest of your assurtions? WAFJ

Idot fools are all over the place. He aint one of them.

Do I like all he has done and the way he handled some things? Not even close. Does he desrsere the shit you just flung? Not even close

Almost PA'd there, until I realised it wasn't necessary. As usual you've achieved a deplorable reply once again! Well done.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Amazon 7]

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Actually it only brings dishonor to the americans that voted him. Which democratically, usually they are the majority.

Welll not actally.. When the man who controls the company who owns the voting machines.. and he supports you and the rest of your buddies...that way you can make it LOOK like a majority voted for you.

[rushmc 18]

Almost PA'd there, until I realised it wasn't necessary. As usual you've achieved a deplorable reply once again! Well done.

[KelliJ 0]

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Actually it only brings dishonor to the americans that voted him. Which democratically, usually they are the majority.

Welll not actally.. When the man who controls the company who owns the voting machines.. and he supports you and the rest of your buddies...that way you can make it LOOK like a majority voted for you.

Not sure what company you are referring to, but if it is Diebold then I can assure you that is not the case. I know several people who work for Diebold and if there was any rigging of results, Bush would have been buried under a landslide. Not one of my friends there voted for Bush and a couple of them despise him so much they turn red at the mention of his name.

[Amazon 7]

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Riiiiiiight



http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm

"DELAND, Fla., Nov. 11 - Something very strange happened on election night to Deborah Tannenbaum, a Democratic Party official in Volusia County. At 10 p.m., she called the county elections department and learned that Al Gore was leading George W. Bush 83,000 votes to 62,000. But when she checked the county's Web site for an update half an hour later, she found a startling development: Gore's count had dropped by 16,000 votes, while an obscure Socialist candidate had picked up 10,000--all because of a single precinct with only 600 voters."
- Washington Post Sunday , November 12, 2000 ; Page A22

Yes. Something very strange happened in Volusia County on election night November 2000, the night that first Gore won Florida, then Bush, and then as everybody can so well remember there was a tie.

Something strange indeed. But what exactly? In the above report ( click for full version), written days after the election, hotshot Washington Post reporter Dana Milbank goes on to attribute the strange 16,022 negative vote tally from Volusia's precinct 216 to an apparently innocent cause.

"…. faulty 'memory cards' in the machines caused the 16,000-vote disappearance on election night. The glitch was soon fixed," he wrote.

But thanks to recent investigations into Black Box Voting by Washington State writer Bev Harris we now know this explanation is not correct. In fact it is not even in the ballpark.

According to recently discovered internal Diebold Election Systems memos, Global Election Systems' (which was later purchased by Diebold) own technical staff were also stumped by the events in Volusia County/

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm

Voting Machine Controversy
by Julie Carr Smyth

COLUMBUS - The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

The Aug. 14 letter from Walden O'Dell, chief executive of Diebold Inc. - who has become active in the re-election effort of President Bush - prompted Democrats this week to question the propriety of allowing O'Dell's company to calculate votes in the 2004 presidential election.

O'Dell attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors - known as Rangers and Pioneers - at the president's Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month. The next week, he penned invitations to a $1,000-a-plate fund-raiser to benefit the Ohio Republican Party's federal campaign fund - partially benefiting Bush - at his mansion in the Columbus suburb of Upper Arlington.

The letter went out the day before Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, also a Republican, was set to qualify Diebold as one of three firms eligible to sell upgraded electronic voting machines to Ohio counties in time for the 2004 election.

Blackwell's announcement is still in limbo because of a court challenge over the fairness of the selection process by a disqualified bidder, Sequoia Voting Systems.

[KelliJ 0]

Doesn't show any evidence at all that Diebold rigged the election. It only shows that some people are sore losers.

Score:519-94

[quade 3]

You are in an extremely small minority of peole that condone torture.

Congratulations?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[akarunway 1]

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Would I be right in assuming you're therefore proud of Dubya? A monkey? A fucking idiot of the highest order?

If my assumption is correct, can you please explain your pride concerning this complete fool, who, along with his other idiot fools, has virtually destroyed americas standing throughout the world, and numerous innocent people too. Great.

Like this monkey too? >http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080307202921.61478e33&show_article=1 Monkeys teaching monkeys. Or SHEEP I say.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[jakee 1,257]

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Bull shit


Twist all you want. I am proud of his stance

You're proud of a man who wants to use cruel, unusual and counterproductive interrogation methods?

Why, for fucks sake? Do you want the US to have bad intel?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lawrocket 3]

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Would I be right in assuming you're therefore proud of Dubya? A monkey? A fucking idiot of the highest order?

And yet, smart enough to be the most powerful man in the world. Smarter than Gore. And Kerry. And anybody else who challenged him.

Doesn't anyone on the left realize how juvenile they sound? Got issues with his policies? I do. Bush is a failed president.

But calling the guy an idiot, who has thus far kicked the ass of the opposing party, must mean that those are the left are truly dolts.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jakee 1,257]

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And yet, smart enough to be the most powerful man in the world. Smarter than Gore. And Kerry. And anybody else who challenged him.

You don't need to be clever to win a popularity contest.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[christelsabine 1]

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...
And yet, smart enough to be the most powerful man in the world. Smarter than Gore. And Kerry. And anybody else who challenged him.
...

He never was smart. His cronies lifted him into the saddle. His cronies supported him to sit. And that's what he is: A president on stilts, unable to walk alone much less to talk alone.

dudeist skydiver # 3105