Stumpy 256
10 things non-gun people should know about Concealed Weapons permit holders.
By
Clownburner, in Speakers Corner
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IanHarrop 37
QuoteQuoteThen we agree that the original post is an over statement with its flagrant misuse of the word "we" suggesting that all CCW permit holders are of good character.
Glad to see that not everyone has bought into this rubbish.
I doubt he was actually trying to speak literally for every single person who applies for a liscence. Do you honestly beleive he meant it that way?
Nope I don't. But I am responding to what was written and not to any thing I might imagine was intended.
My objective in responding to this post was to point out that the original post was an over statement of the facts. Just as all CCW holders are not bad, neither are they all good as is suggested in the original post as written.
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy
QuoteQuoteWould you have a problem with the OP statement, if it included a qualifier along the lines of:
"The following speaks for the overwhelming majority (but not necessarily 100%) of CCW permit holders."
Seems like a number of people are using the probability that some CCW holders are less reputable to discount the statement.
Good disclaimer. If it had been with the original post I would have no argument.
As I indicated earlier, the concept that all CCW holders are good is just as false as the concept that all CCW holders are bad.
But I do have to raise one point in the original post that is questionable in the skydiving community. "We don't get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do." I guess no skydivers that go to a bonfire after jumping are CCW holders!!! LOL
Seems like your splitting hairs here. First off, I took that statement as a general one for most CCW permit holders.
That first point about not drinking etc. seemed to be about "when they are actually carrying a weapon". In other words, they take steps to avoid hazardous situations when they are carrying.
Perhaps you could've asked for clarification instead of saying:
"It just amazes me that people feel so insecure that they need to have guns on their person, but then I don't live in a overly violent society.
Perhaps their insecurity is justified or maybe they're just paranoid, I don't know. "
billvon 2,433
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>Yep, all lawful CCW holders are of demonstrably good character.
Well, all lawful PEOPLE are of demonstrably good character. Neither one is all that surprising a statement. Unfortunately, there is a percentage of both law abiding people and law abiding CCW holders who become criminals.
Well, all lawful PEOPLE are of demonstrably good character. Neither one is all that surprising a statement. Unfortunately, there is a percentage of both law abiding people and law abiding CCW holders who become criminals.
JackC 0
QuoteWell, all lawful PEOPLE are of demonstrably good character.
I'm not sure that "demonstrably good character" and "law abiding" are congruent sets. I've met people who technically haven't broken any laws but equally have a character best described as "complete asshole".
billvon 2,433
>I've met people who technically haven't broken any laws but equally
>have a character best described as "complete asshole".
No argument there! I was considering "good character" in the legal sense. (Of course, I also know some assholes who are really pretty good people overall; they just like to stir shit.)
>have a character best described as "complete asshole".
No argument there! I was considering "good character" in the legal sense. (Of course, I also know some assholes who are really pretty good people overall; they just like to stir shit.)
IanHarrop 37
Quote(Of course, I also know some assholes who are really pretty good people overall; they just like to stir shit.)
This could apply to me... LOL.
I pretty much knew what I would get when I called the original post into question.
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy
QuoteQuoteI have no idea what is in the mind of every last person that has or applies for a CCW
Then we agree that the original post is an over statement with its flagrant misuse of the word "we" suggesting that all CCW permit holders are of good character.
Glad to see that not everyone has bought into this rubbish.
Is this some issue of Canadian English? Your objection is trivial nonsense, and I question your motives in raising this argument. It's not in good faith.
When the President speaks for the GOP, Pelosi for the Democrats, the Police Chief for his department of cops, "we" means the group. It is a generalization. It doesn't mean "every single one of us."
Ian, CCW holders have been seen to commit crimes at a rate similar to large police forces. If that standard isn't high enough for you, nothing would be. But let's cut the crap - it's good enough to use "we."
IanHarrop 37
QuoteIan, CCW holders have been seen to commit crimes at a rate similar to large police forces. If that standard isn't high enough for you, nothing would be. But let's cut the crap - it's good enough to use "we."
Thanks for the information about the crime rate among CCW holders being similar to that of large police forces, I didn't know that.
I haven't been able to find anything on line, in a short period of time that I've looked, that indicates what the that rate might be. It would be interesting to know. Do you have a source?
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy
QuoteThanks man, at least someone does not automatically classify me as a dolt, just because they do not agree with me.
Closed minds breed contempt.
But I think you're nuts Randy.
Seriously though, well written piece, without a doubt - I guess IanHarrop realised the folly of it first though. Do the descriptions apply to everyone? Perhaps a significant majority, yes. But not all.
Like Douva's recent article, it's well written and sensible but there are two areas which generally seem to not attract attention. Two very important areas.
1. What is causing so many citizens to go on shooting sprees?
That's the key issue. Having weapons readily available allows the nutters to arm themselves more easily, and also, allow the citizens to defend themselves. But it misses what's really important.
2......I think I've forgotten...too much Cabernet Sauvignon, but I wish I seen more posts concerning the real issue around all this: more leanings towards American cultural and social issues. That's the solution.
All this crap about whether or not civvies should have the right to carry is just that: crap. There's a real issue to discuss. And it's getting brushed under the carpet as usual.
(Who brushes crap under the carpet? Jeeezus.)
'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'
Quote...
I don't have such a permit, but I do own several guns and don't have a problem with the ownership and responsible use of guns. It just amazes me that people feel so insecure that they need to have guns on their person, but then I don't live in a overly violent society.
Perhaps their insecurity is justified or maybe they're just paranoid, I don't know.
I don't live in an overly violent society either, but I've met too many victims to feel safe. As a karate instructor, too many of them came in to the studio to learn to defend themselves after something had happened, rather than being proactive about their safety beforehand.
# Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
# One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.
# In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
# About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
-2005 National Crime Victimization Survey
QuoteQuoteThanks man, at least someone does not automatically classify me as a dolt, just because they do not agree with me.
Closed minds breed contempt.
But I think you're nuts Randy.Quote
Dude! I keep working on an alibi, "just in case"
Thanks for the input!
IanHarrop 37
Quote
I don't live in an overly violent society either, but I've met too many victims to feel safe. As a karate instructor, too many of them came in to the studio to learn to defend themselves after something had happened, rather than being proactive about their safety beforehand.
# Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
# One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.
# In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
# About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
-2005 National Crime Victimization Survey
Maybe you do live in a overly violent society with those stats!
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy
QuoteQuote...
I don't have such a permit, but I do own several guns and don't have a problem with the ownership and responsible use of guns. It just amazes me that people feel so insecure that they need to have guns on their person, but then I don't live in a overly violent society.
Perhaps their insecurity is justified or maybe they're just paranoid, I don't know.
I don't live in an overly violent society either, but I've met too many victims to feel safe. As a karate instructor, too many of them came in to the studio to learn to defend themselves after something had happened, rather than being proactive about their safety beforehand.
# Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
# One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.
# In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
# About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
-2005 National Crime Victimization Survey
I'm missing your point. Should individuals be more proactive and learn self defence techniques, or just buy themselves a pistol and eat more hotdogs?
'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'
Buying a gun and learning how to use it, and learning martial arts are just two different forms of self defense. Personally, I advocate both.
1969912 0
QuoteQuoteIan, CCW holders have been seen to commit crimes at a rate similar to large police forces. If that standard isn't high enough for you, nothing would be. But let's cut the crap - it's good enough to use "we."
Thanks for the information about the crime rate among CCW holders being similar to that of large police forces, I didn't know that.
I haven't been able to find anything on line, in a short period of time that I've looked, that indicates what the that rate might be. It would be interesting to know. Do you have a source?
At least in my state (WA), it would likely be very difficult to get CCW holder names, etc. in order to find out how law-abiding they are. I'm pretty sure that info is protected by privacy laws.
I think some inference can be made about CCW holders though. In WA, a criminal records check is done on application, and one is done every three or four years for renewal. Big deal. You only need to pass the check once, and you have four years of CCW use. But the fact that a person is willing to submit to the check in the first place does say something about him/her. It says he respected the law enough to get the permit in the first place, and it also says that at one time (I know, up to 4 yrs ago...) he had a clean record. It may not sound like much, but since it's so easy to carry concealed weapons illegally without getting caught, it makes sense to me that CCW holders would be very clean individuals as a group.
It would be interesting to see a study though.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
Quote
At least in my state (WA), it would likely be very difficult to get CCW holder names, etc. in order to find out how law-abiding they are. I'm pretty sure that info is protected by privacy laws.
but criminal convictions would result in the revocation of the CCW, and that number will not be difficult to provide.
I'll see if I can find suitable references later tonight.
NelKel 0
Good repost!
_________________________________________
Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan
Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan
In Fla. you can keep your pistol LEGALLY "in the glovebox locked OR UNLOCKED" last time I checked the laws. No CCW requiredQuotepeople should also keep in mind that simply having a CCW does not always mean we carry on our person.
It reduces the hassle factor to have one should you be transporting weapons for any number of reasons. It's nice to know I have a CCW when I have a piece in the car. It also changes the way the police treat you when stopped. (not always for the better mind you)
The legal wording (at least in Florida) was always hard to understand regarding having a weapon in the car..."the 3 move" rule wasn't very clear. My CCW clears that up fully.
There will always be those that believe because we have a CCW, we're just looking for an opportunity to kill someone - even some cops I know feel that way about armed civilians.
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
1969912 0
QuoteQuote
At least in my state (WA), it would likely be very difficult to get CCW holder names, etc. in order to find out how law-abiding they are. I'm pretty sure that info is protected by privacy laws.
but criminal convictions would result in the revocation of the CCW, and that number will not be difficult to provide.
I'll see if I can find suitable references later tonight.
Good point. I wonder if my state has something that makes the courts check to see if a newly cinvicted person has a permit. Records of revocations might be hard to gather in WA because the state is not involved at all, unless the Sheriff of ciy PD has to send a copy of the application. I'll look it up.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
I just looked it up. Seems they changed the law/wording a bit.>"5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012."QuoteIn Fla. you can keep your pistol LEGALLY "in the glovebox locked OR UNLOCKED" last time I checked the laws. No CCW requiredQuotepeople should also keep in mind that simply having a CCW does not always mean we carry on our person.
It reduces the hassle factor to have one should you be transporting weapons for any number of reasons. It's nice to know I have a CCW when I have a piece in the car. It also changes the way the police treat you when stopped. (not always for the better mind you)
The legal wording (at least in Florida) was always hard to understand regarding having a weapon in the car..."the 3 move" rule wasn't very clear. My CCW clears that up fully.
There will always be those that believe because we have a CCW, we're just looking for an opportunity to kill someone - even some cops I know feel that way about armed civilians.
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
That works both ways.
There are people on this board that will not entertain the idea that a reduction in the number of guns might have a benefit, and there are people on here that believe the exact opposite.
Both are close minded.
But hey, i enjoy reading these threads so good for you.
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