bch7773 0 #26 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote: "Soldiers from 5th IA said al Qaeda had cut the heads off the children. Had al Qaeda murdered the children in front of their parents? Maybe it had been the other way around: maybe they had murdered the parents in front of the children. Maybe they had forced the father to dig the graves of his children..." There are atrocities being carried out by both sides. In what universe did you think that up? to equate that is immoral and dishonest. We do not kill every last inhabitant, US soldiers take casualties avoiding such, and in many cases shielding the civilian population. Your lack of proof of said atrocities carried out by US forces following lawful orders, removes all doubt from everyones mind as to the voracity of your claims. Furthermore you are an obvious troll, and lack any honesty whatsoever, that is the only reason you post such vile lies. Actually I am totally honest - you simply cannot comprehend a point of view so apparently different to your own. The dishonesty is yours for being so blinkered. The vitriol of your response suggests a fragile world-view that would be shattered should it consider for a second that all US forces are not paragons of virtue. big words don't make your arguement make sense. to think that the objectives and morals of al quaida and the US forces are the same is laughable. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #27 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuote HADITHA was an atrocity. I doubt the survivors care whether or not the orders were lawful. An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind. M. Gandhi. NEITHER side should be committing atrocities - PERIOD! We have no control over AQ but we do have control of ourselves. Professor: I agree with everything you are saying here, but please answer these questions: 1) Do you think that Al Quaeda and the United States Government are morally equivalent? Yes or no, please. 2) If you answered no, which side is superior? Still waiting for an answer to these two simple questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #28 July 2, 2007 >big words don't make your arguement make sense. Those were not big words! Now, epistemological is a big word. >to think that the objectives and morals of al quaida and the US forces are the same is laughable. I agree. They're quite different. However, myself and several other people have been somewhat disturbed by incidents where they do _seem_ to be similar, and even more disturbed by war supporters who defend these new objectives and morals. We have tortured people to death, raped them with broomsticks and cylumes, and hung them from ceilings by their wrists. We have raped children and then killed them and their families to cover it up. We have mutilated corpses in hopes of provoking Iraqis into violence. Fortunately, these have been somewhat isolated incidents, and several of them have already been dealt with. Hopefully in the future we will see them dealt with a bit better (two months in prison for beating someone to death? come on) and we will also see a decrease in the incidence of such abuses. What is perhaps more disturbing is the public support seen both here on this board and in the pro-war media in general of such abuses. One pundit claimed that the torture was needed recreation for US troops: "I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?" Another pro-torture war supporter called for the US government to be "engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport." Hopefully other countries do not see these popular US political commentators as representative of the US. I fear often that they DO represent the US to other countries, in the same way that the most violent members of Islam represent all Muslims to some people here in the US. And that will make the job of US troops everywhere much more difficult for years to come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #29 July 2, 2007 QuoteWhat is perhaps more disturbing is the public support seen both here on this board and in the pro-war media in general of such abuses. One pundit claimed that the torture was needed recreation for US troops: "I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?" Another pro-torture war supporter called for the US government to be "engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport." Were they earnest or merely trolling? With the amount of righteous indignation seen on this board, I can see how some might chum the waters a bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #30 July 2, 2007 Quote With the amount of righteous indignation seen on this board, I can see how some might chum the waters a bit. Seems to work.. lots of big ole guppies.....hook line and sinker out there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #31 July 2, 2007 >Were they earnest or merely trolling? Quite earnest. Which is no suprise; both pundits I quoted above (Coulter and Limbaugh) make their living pandering to pro-war extremists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #32 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote HADITHA was an atrocity. I doubt the survivors care whether or not the orders were lawful. An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind. M. Gandhi. NEITHER side should be committing atrocities - PERIOD! We have no control over AQ but we do have control of ourselves. Professor: I agree with everything you are saying here, but please answer these questions: 1) Do you think that Al Quaeda and the United States Government are morally equivalent? Yes or no, please. 2) If you answered no, which side is superior? Still waiting for an answer to these two simple questions. What makes you think they're simple? Al Qaeda's methods are repugnant. The USA has no business being in Iraq killing Iraqi civilians in trhe first place. I'm not sure I can compare the morality of beheading people with the morality of blowing them up. We HAVE killed a whole lot of civilians in Iraq. I see 3 more US troops were indicted this week for killing civilians.www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSBUL23931220070702 Saying we're fixing the problem is absurd. We've been "fixing it" since My Lai and clearly it isn't fixed at all.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #33 July 2, 2007 QuoteSaying we're fixing the problem is absurd. We've been "fixing it" since My Lai and clearly it isn't fixed at all. For what it's worth, I don't think we are fixing it, either. I do get upset at the hyperbole I see when the war is discussed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KidWicked 0 #34 July 2, 2007 QuoteDarius, kid wicked would say that you and I are wrong, for he knows far more than we could possibly fathom You totally missed my point. I wager that the parent of a kid killed by US troops (intentionally or not) hates US troops more than AQ. The "morals" of each side are irrelevant to that parent. Since it all depends on the point of view, your opinion cannot therefore be explicitly correct, but rather purely subjective.Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KidWicked 0 #35 July 3, 2007 Quoteto think that the objectives and morals of al quaida and the US forces are the same is laughable. I'm not saying they are the same. What I am saying is that from the perspective of those brutalized by each side, "morals" are irrelevant.Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #36 July 3, 2007 QuoteQuoteDarius, kid wicked would say that you and I are wrong, for he knows far more than we could possibly fathom You totally missed my point. I wager that the parent of a kid killed by US troops (intentionally or not) hates US troops more than AQ. The "morals" of each side are irrelevant to that parent. Since it all depends on the point of view, your opinion cannot therefore be explicitly correct, but rather purely subjective. I tend to agree with this statement. In the nam we killed so many civilians with collateral fire and bombing that it totally fucked up the "Hearts and Minds" program. Our guys have to be squeaky clean.....which in turn gets our guys killed. There is no black and white...its all grey. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #37 July 3, 2007 Quote>Were they earnest or merely trolling? Quite earnest. Which is no suprise; both pundits I quoted above (Coulter and Limbaugh) make their living pandering to pro-war extremists. Bill, I don't follow Ann Coulter, but I do listen to Rush about 2-3 hours each week and have for years. I can promise you, if he said that at all, he did not say it in earnest. Before anyone judges me because I listen to Rush, be advised that I listen to NPR about 6-8 hours per week. I used to listen to Air America, as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #38 July 3, 2007 >I can promise you, if he said that at all, he did not say it in earnest. He did indeed. The entire context: ------------------------------------------- May 3 2004: (concerning the Abu Ghraib pictures) Limbaugh: You know, if you look at -- if you, really, if you look at these pictures, I mean, I don't know if it's just me, but it looks just like anything you'd see Madonna, or Britney Spears do on stage. Maybe I'm -- yeah. And get an NEA grant for something like this. I mean, this is something that you can see on stage at Lincoln Center from an NEA grant, maybe on Sex in the City -- the movie. I mean, I don't -- it's just me. May 4: Caller: It was like a college fraternity prank that stacked up naked men . . Limbaugh: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off? ---------------------------------------- He lamented that troops might be punished for torturing prisoners and likened it to fraternity hazing. He wasn't "making a joke." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #39 July 3, 2007 Fair enough. Keep in mind that there were a lot of bad things that were being done. Not all of it should be called torture. Humiliating and illegal, yes. Do you really think that he would publicly state, in front of millions of people, that true torture (gouging out eyes, raping, mutilating) is just blowing off steam? Do you really think that even Rush Limbaugh thinks that's A-OK? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #40 July 3, 2007 QuoteThat is a pathetic cop-out. Your moral equivalence is disgusting. It is absolutely obvious to anyone that Al-Q is planting bombs to mame & murder innocents in vast numbers, in Africa, Indonesia, America, Iraq and anywhere else it can extend it's influence to. To equate that with anything on the other side takes an act of will. The murder of innocents is the M.O. of these barbarians. So when the US completely obliterated two cities in Japan to end the pacific campaign of WWII, was that the murder of innocents or was that quite accaptable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #41 July 3, 2007 Yes. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #42 July 7, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote HADITHA was an atrocity. I doubt the survivors care whether or not the orders were lawful. An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind. M. Gandhi. NEITHER side should be committing atrocities - PERIOD! We have no control over AQ but we do have control of ourselves. Professor: I agree with everything you are saying here, but please answer these questions: 1) Do you think that Al Quaeda and the United States Government are morally equivalent? Yes or no, please. 2) If you answered no, which side is superior? Still waiting for an answer to these two simple questions. What makes you think they're simple? Al Qaeda's methods are repugnant. The USA has no business being in Iraq killing Iraqi civilians in trhe first place. I'm not sure I can compare the morality of beheading people with the morality of blowing them up. We HAVE killed a whole lot of civilians in Iraq. I see 3 more US troops were indicted this week for killing civilians.www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSBUL23931220070702 Saying we're fixing the problem is absurd. We've been "fixing it" since My Lai and clearly it isn't fixed at all. Seeing your posts reminds me of the old saying, those that can do, those who can't teach. You are entitled to your own opinions, but saying that we go over there to kill civilians, is a little over the top. I can forsee some anger being built up against your son, and feel very sorry for the unforgivness he is going to face.... After all the time spent over the and the dangers he has been risking."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
