Freefallers Near Canopy

[Avion 0]

I like to get some feedback on a recent experience. I had a four way sit jump planed. We were the first group to jump. Before boarding, I checked with the 2 way group jumping after, and found out they were planning on opening at 3000', ~500' lower than my groups planed opening at 3500'.

On the ride up, I mentioned this to the other guys I was with, and mentioned that we ought to let the 2 way go first. They ignored me. Then we jumped.

The jump run was flying SW. Our freefall went well. At break off, I was already a good distance away from and on the SW side of the group. Then, I of course, duh, tracked futher SW.

After opening I was under canopy about 3000' and before I even grabbed my toggles, I noticed the 2 way guys that jumped after us freefalling past me about 200' to the SW, and deploying about 500' lower.

In my limited experiece this was prehaps the third or forth time I have had freefallers passing closer than I'm comfortable with. After we all landed I ask the 2way guys if they saw me wave off. They said yes and described how I waved off, so I tend to believe them. They also said that's why they took their dive a little lower, to give me some room. Then it came out that they only gave my group a six second delay before jumping.

Apparently, I am the only one who is noticing a chain of avoidable mistakes that formed here. Basically with each mistake being commited by different people.

1) We knew they were planning to open lower than us, and jumped before them anyway.

2) We, or at least I, presumed they would give us a sufficient delay, at least 10 seconds, before jumping after us.

3) I tracked up the jump run.

Looking back, there is one thing I should have done, and a few things I could have done:

1) Firstly and most importantly, I should have tracked off the jump run instead of on it.

2) I could have been more forceful in expressing my desire to let the 2 way go before us, or simply gone solo after them.

3) I could have checked with the 2 way about giving us a good delay.

So, am I just being a paranoid ninny here?

Should I just buck up and keep going with the flow?

In the least case, I want to keep the presence of mind to always track off the jump run every time.

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Was the 2-way doing RW or FF?

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[PhreeZone 15]

Depending on the winds, the plane and other factors 6 seconds might have been plenty of exit seperation. In other extreme cases I've seen seperation of 10-12 seconds barely be enough and they really should have used 18-20 seconds.

Low pullers is something that can be taken in to account but smaller groups have more of a tendency to shift all around the sky and larger groups tend to not have so much motion. If you are unable to maintain proximity to a group drop back down to smaller groups until you are able to stay nice and tight to the group.

Tracking off the jump run is great if there is no one else close to you but on things like4 ays someone is going to have to track up and someone down if you want max seperation from the rest of the people in your own group.

Things to think about for the next jump is to determine the correct seperation based on the conditions. Make sure its talked about before the jump. Also work on the proximity. If you are not close at break off then you already are minimizing seperation from another group and you need to work to fix that in the future. Other then that it sounds like you are thinking about other things to do and those are all good thoughts.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[MarkM 0]

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1) We knew they were planning to open lower than us, and jumped before them anyway.

Jumping order at most places is typically belly, FF, students, tandems, wingsuits/CRW, with larger groups in each going before the smaller groups.

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2) We, or at least I, presumed they would give us a sufficient delay, at least 10 seconds, before jumping after us.

10 seconds may be a bit overboard unless the plane is really slow or the uppers are really hauling or the groups exiting are large.

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3) I tracked up the jump run.

On a 4 way you track away from the other people in your group. That can take you into the jump run. When groups are exiting there should be enough time taken between exits to allow for this.

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So, am I just being a paranoid ninny here?

Yes

But it's not a bad thing to be aware of and be concerned about. It's a pretty shitty feeling looking up under canopy and seeing someone wave off and start to deploy right on top of you.

I would've found out how much of a count the people after me gave after the jump if I noticed a close deployment. Also, when you exit you can keep an eye on the plane and see the group after you exit. That should give you an idea whether or not they gave you plenty of time or if you'll need to play the "track longer to save my ass" game.

[rehmwa 2]

Lots of posts on time between groups and exit order. Do a search. All 3 of your "lessons learned" are bogus....

1 - Never count on vertical separation with 'fun jump' groups to decide exit order - it's not predictable or trustworthy.

2 - 6 seconds delay is meaningless unless you know freefall drift and aircraft penetration. 6 secs could be more than enough or not nearly enough. Don't get worked up over how much time.

3 - you shouldn't have to worry about which direction you track unless your are in a tracking dive or wingsuit dive - exit separation and exit order are more important.

Were they doing RW or also sitflying?

If you were sit flying and the second group was doing RW, then both groups are responsible for putting each other in danger. (for typical upwind jumprun and uppers faster than ground winds in a similar direction). MarkM's exit order is a good one, though I don't see ordering by group size (within each discipline) to matter at all.

Go to Kallend's site and read up on the topic. He does a GREAT job explaining it.

If you understand what Kallend is talking about, and know how to spot, then you won't need quaint 'thumbrules', you will be able to assess the winds each day and do what's needed for any condition, jump run direction (like cross wind instead of upwind), etc.

edit: you are NOT being a ninny - so many in the sport have zero clue about separation and exit order. With idiotic things like the "45 degree rule" and people thinking they need out first based on canopy size, etc. It's best to be aware of what really matters (separation dynamics and exit order due to freefall drift) and stay on top of it. You did a great job to be thinking about it when talking to other groups and then asking the right questions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Yossarian 0]

do you not have a jumpmaster that know all this stuff and sets exit order before you get on the plane? the dz's ive been to everyone knows whos doing what and pulling at what height, everyone gets in the plane in the right place and that seems to work

[Avion 0]

For me the goal of the dive was to stay close to the group. The other three went out linked to help them stay together. I went out seperate to work on my ability to stay with them. which did end up being better than the previous jump. Vertically I stayed right with them, horizonally I got maybe 300-400' away.

The load boarded without an organizer, as usual for the DZ.

Ground winds were light to none, uppers were less than 10kts.

Both groups were doing sit jumps. No belly flyers on that load, except some tandems last.

The group I was with were DZ regulars, and the second group were weekend visters from somewhere else.

[rehmwa 2]

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do you not have a jumpmaster that know all this stuff and sets exit order before you get on the plane? the dz's ive been to everyone knows whos doing what and pulling at what height, everyone gets in the plane in the right place and that seems to work

I expect each jumper to know this stuff. Not just some load organizer at a DZ

ask around and see:

1 - how many 'experienced' jumpmasters think the 45 degree rule is something good to use - you might be surprised how many give you the unsafe answer.........

2 - there's large DZs all over the world that have "policy" of unsafe exit order and the justifications are all over the place - but still faulty.....most have to do with the guy that sets the rule liking to swoop

you need to be aware every place you jump to watch out for your own ass and the safety of those around you

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Avion 0]

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1 - how many 'experienced' jumpmasters think the 45 degree rule is something good to use - you might be surprised how many give you the unsafe answer.........

2 - there's large DZs all over the world that have "policy" of unsafe exit order and the justifications are all over the place - but still faulty.....most have to do with the guy that sets the rule liking to swoop

you need to be aware every place you jump to watch out for your own ass and the safety of those around you

From what I've seen load organizers are an exeption rather than the usual. That's why I've taken upon myself to be proactive about finding out who's doing what before and after me. Once in a while someone will actually seem put off by my asking what they're planing.

I hear people talking about the 45 degree rule all the time. I've been to Dr. Kallends site and played with the simulator two years ago when I first started. I just summerized it to my own rule of thumb as a mimunium of ten seconds seperation and more when its windy. Seconds are cheap, everybody can afford to give a few extra.

I just had another look the FF simulator, I can understand what going on with it a lot better now. Faster fallers after slower fallers for your regular into the wind jumprun. I almost want to take my pc to the DZ and type in the numbers for the day to get an extimate for seperation delay

MarkM's exit order what the DZs I go to use.

[PhreeZone 15]

I really hate to drift the topic but there are a few things that raise flags for me here.

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The other three went out linked to help them stay together. I went out seperate to work on my ability to stay with them. which did end up being better than the previous jump. Vertically I stayed right with them, horizonally I got maybe 300-400' away.

An issue here is if you get some vertical and horizantial seperation then the rest of the group loses sight of you. When they turn to track and level out it is a real possility that they could end up heading in your direction and be under you ans slowing down to belly speeds as you are still in a high speed position. This has lead to at least 1 death in the last 3-4 years. If you are not able to get close to a large group then you need to break it back down and start at 2 ways then work it back up to larger formations. At no point on a freefly should you completely lose sight of others in your group. If someone turns their back on someone else then it is just asking for a collision to occur and that will lead to another fatality one day.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Avion 0]

I had them in sight the whole time, and as I said vertically I was level with them. They were about half way between being right next to me to being a dot in the distance. I was concerned that if I tracked off the jump run I would have ended up closer to one of them depending on how they tracked. So I tracked directly away from the center of the group, which happened to be up the jump run for me.

Doing two ways if fine with me. I remember a 4 way sit fly incident at Zhills last year when one guy corked then came through the canopy of one of the lower guys. Just some buises in that case.

I would rather be overly cautious then go the other way. Yep, stuff happens, that's exactly my motivation for pursuing the issues involved here.

[PhreeZone 15]

You may have had them in sight the whole time but did all 3 of them have you in sight at all times?

Tracking off is another reason why its important to be close. That way everyone could tell where everyone is tracking off to and you are sure to have clear airspace.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Avion 0]

Good point, I know at least one guy lost track of me.

After looking a Kallend's simulator again, I realized the second group, was a pair of little guys, like 5' 110lbs, and I was the lightest of our group at 165, the other three were like 175 to 200+. That means we probably fell a good margin faster than the other guys and were the first of the two groups to jump.

Good stuff to think about.

I learned more than I expected on this one. Thanks y'all.

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[MarkM 0]

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Seconds are cheap, everybody can afford to give a few extra.

Except for those times you hose the spot for the people behind you, by waiting longer than you need to at the door

Just hang in there for another hundred jumps and get into wingsuits. You always exit last, never worry about the spot, and people screaming past you 100 feet from your canopy is the highlight for the day, not a near death experience.

[Remster 24]

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do you not have a jumpmaster

No.

Thats a very UK thing you dont see elsewhere.

Remster

[kallend 1,628]

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With idiotic things like the "45 degree rule" ...

I regret to say that just this month I overheard an instructor at my home DZ telling a beginner to "wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees".

It's like a Hydra.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>Except for those times you hose the spot for the people behind you,
>by waiting longer than you need to at the door

Right. But freefall/canopy collisions are, generally, much worse than having to land out (or having to go around.)

[billvon 2,400]

>I regret to say that just this month I overheard an instructor at my
>home DZ telling a beginner to "wait until the previous group makes an
>angle of 45 degrees".

Yep. Dan BC still believes in the 45 degree rule. We've had some disagreements during Safety Day seminars.

[MB38 0]

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I regret to say that just this month I overheard an instructor at my home DZ telling a beginner to "wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees".

It's how I was taught at Perris by several different instructors. The only way I found out that it was "wrong" was reading these forums, reading Bill's article and listening to his interview Skydive Radio.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[Yossarian 0]

i dont mean a load organiser, i mean a jumpmaster, i was a jm on my last two pac jumps, and its not just the jm that knows, the jm makes sure everyone knows whats going on, with regards to deployment altitude, separation, jump type etc... ive heard people whove jumped in the states say that people just pile into the plane and sort out order on the way up, and that cant be comfy in a tightly packed plane...

[chopchop 0]

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For me the goal of the dive was to stay close to the group. The other three went out linked to help them stay together. I went out seperate to work on my ability to stay with them. which did end up being better than the previous jump. Vertically I stayed right with them, horizonally I got maybe 300-400' away.

I'd like to point out that it sounds as if you were backsliding which is quite common for beginner freefliers and you can slide a pretty good distance. During this period of your progression, I recommend facing perpendicular to jumprun such that you don't backslide into other groups. Just pick a landmark and face that. Get your group between you and the landmark if you are using them as a reference also.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[Avion 0]

That's what I was thinking too. I've been working on forward motion. That was the point of me going out unlinked. Evidently, I'm back sliding durning the time from exit to speed, because it's during that time that everybody magically speads out a few hundred feet as you watch it happen. Then I have to work the whole rest of the dive to get back to them.

The same thing happens with the other guys. They just got tired of trying to dealing with it, that's why they decided to exit linked.

[kallend 1,628]

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i ive heard people whove jumped in the states say that people just pile into the plane and sort out order on the way up, and that cant be comfy in a tightly packed plane...

Yeah, we do that all the time; we get in without rigs and stuff too, an' no dirt diving. You folks in the UK are so uptight about things.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AFFI 0]

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With idiotic things like the "45 degree rule" ...

I regret to say that just this month I overheard an instructor at my home DZ telling a beginner to "wait until the previous group makes an angle of 45 degrees".

Without getting into the 45 Debate – the time it took that beginner to calculate at the door when the last out was at 45 degrees it was likely (but maybe not) that enough time had elapsed to create adequate separation.
This perspective implies that the 45 degree rule may sometimes work inadvertently...

As we all progress in skydiving we learn and try new ideas and methods then shit-can some too. Later on the newbie will learn additional varying opinions about it; at least they are learning that separation is important and in time they might even learn to check the spot and stuff…

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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

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You folks in the UK are so uptight about things.

That is because they are better than us...