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DSE 3
Quote[I guess I'm still in shock for reading that hop n' pops are not economically viable at SDAZ so I guess you won't be seeing my sorry ass in AZ very much anymore.
Let's just hope that this attitude doesn't spread to more DZs.
How *could* it be economically viable? Multiple aircraft in the air, asking one to fly out of pattern, requiring additional attention to what loads are dropping when, concerns about simultaneous landing timing, not to mention fuel used. I don' entirely understand the dynamics of fuel consumption, but it seems that flying from point A-B-C, climbing the A-B routes, would consume less fuel than A-C-A-B-C, leveling out for the lower jump run.
I'm probably wrong in that assumption, but at least it makes sense.
Don't confuse the zoo'ish multiple aircrafts on jump run of the Holiday Boogie with your normal average day at Eloy. No Hop n' pops during the Holiday Boogie is understandable. No hop n' pops on an average day is not.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
billvon 2,446
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>If it wasn't for the new age pioneers in the sport (swoopers, demo
>jumpers and freeflyers) this sport would have been washed up years ago.
If you really think that demo jumping and freeflying is new - you haven't been in the sport very long, my friend!
>you don't see joe shmo the fuck bag on his 360 manta on stunt junkies
The last stunt junkies I saw had a fuck bag on his 220 square foot 7-cell landing after a 300 foot ground-launched BASE jump. Didn't see any "cool ass" swoopers though!
>jumpers and freeflyers) this sport would have been washed up years ago.
If you really think that demo jumping and freeflying is new - you haven't been in the sport very long, my friend!
>you don't see joe shmo the fuck bag on his 360 manta on stunt junkies
The last stunt junkies I saw had a fuck bag on his 220 square foot 7-cell landing after a 300 foot ground-launched BASE jump. Didn't see any "cool ass" swoopers though!
QuoteDon't confuse the zoo'ish multiple aircrafts on jump run of the Holiday Boogie with your normal average day at Eloy. No Hop n' pops during the Holiday Boogie is understandable. No hop n' pops on an average day is not.
Again you are reading into this things that are not there. No one has said there will be no more low passes on regular Eloy jump days; read what Bryan, Betsy and Larry wrote again.
quade 3
My, my . . .
How "brave" the words of the anonymous.
Just to be clear; I don't care what side of this issue you're on, but if a person believes in something they should have the balls to stand behind their opinions with their own name.
Skydive Arizona did by posting their policy statement and they have a hell of a lot more at risk than most people responding to this thread.
How "brave" the words of the anonymous.
Just to be clear; I don't care what side of this issue you're on, but if a person believes in something they should have the balls to stand behind their opinions with their own name.
Skydive Arizona did by posting their policy statement and they have a hell of a lot more at risk than most people responding to this thread.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
reply]
Again you are reading into this things that are not there. No one has said there will be no more low passes on regular Eloy jump days; read what Bryan, Betsy and Larry wrote again.
Again you are reading into this things that are not there. No one has said there will be no more low passes on regular Eloy jump days; read what Bryan, Betsy and Larry wrote again.
Perhaps you should read their posts again. When they say that it isn't economically viable, and that swooping, like classic accuarcy, is not encouraged makes it sound like if you want to ask for a low pass you might as well ask them to cut off their right arm.
QuoteI guess I'm still in shock for reading that hop n' pops are not economically viable at SDAZ
What's the big deal? Someone with access to financial information you (and me) may not have access to, stated that H&Ps were not profitable. Considering SDAZ is a business, and not a non-profit organization in charge of satisfying the hobby of few people, they have the right to alter their business practices as they deem. Much like you have the right to take your business somewhere else, or start a DZ in Arizona with 8 aircrafts doing H&P loads all day long. But being in shock because someone stated a certain practice is not financially sound seems like overacting...
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
Quoteit seems that flying from point A-B-C, climbing the A-B routes, would consume less fuel than A-C-A-B-C, leveling out for the lower jump run.
I'm probably wrong in that assumption, but at least it makes sense.
Why is there always an assumption that hop n' poppers need the pilot to level off, slow down etc, etc, etc. This is all needed for big way groups when people are hanging off of the airplane waiting for everyone else to get set, but a hop n' popper only needs a certain amount of altitude. Slowing down a little exiting from a King Air is not a bad ideal, but slowing down in a Cessna, Otter or Porter? Please ... the airplane can still be climbing when we exit. There is no need to level off for hop n' poppers ... plus it also gives us a greater opportunity for vertical seperation (assuming the people following the first person out follow the planned deployment delays).
Now if I can just get those old fart accuracy guys to realize that I need more than 2k (more like 3.5k) when I'm doing a hop n' pop with them. Oh and by the way, to some people I too would qualify as an old fart (what with myself being a POPS member ... thank you very much Mar), I'm just an old fart who refuses to play my age since swooping keeps me young (in spirit).
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
Screw the cut, just give me the door and a jump light!
The future of swooping is on the line here. I am not arguing that ripping a big turn in traffic is not rolling the dice. So if DZs want to cut down on the risk, banning the big turns on normal loads is not out of the question. So what are the alternatives, a seperate landing areas is one, but not all DZs have that luxury. Low passes or high pulls is another, but now here we have an industry leader saying that low passes are not economically viable for their business (they've got to be one of if not the most lucrative DZ in the world). What are we to do when more DZs follow SDAZ's model? I have already seen some DZs modifying their hop n' pop policies to the point where getting on a hop n' pop is like pulling your teeth. So where is this sport going? Some DZs are catering to tandems and students and some DZs are only catering to big ways and teams. How are the future jumpers expected to gain the experience to become the future TMs and AFFIs when they are being discouraged from jumping. To some people, I am doing nothing but whinning and in all reality since I am not young who knows how long I'll be around? But look in the mirror and ask yourself where do you want to see this sport 10-20-30 years from now and ask yourself where are the innovations of this sport occuring? We're all going to be a bunch of "Doe-Doe" birds if knee-jerk solutions are adopted.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
DSE 3
Notice I didn't say anything about "cut." During climb to altitude, the aircraft at Perris, Eloy, and other DZ's I've been to follow a pattern, and I'd think this is particularly important during busy days. Deviating from the pattern likely costs more in fuel (again, maybe I'm wrong in my thinking) and that may be a part of the decision.
At the end of the day, it only matters what the vendor offers. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but there is little point in standing toe to toe with him barking at him for not selling what you want. Either what you want is different than what others are willing to buy, or the vendor will go out of business. Either way, you're not affected.
At the end of the day, it only matters what the vendor offers. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but there is little point in standing toe to toe with him barking at him for not selling what you want. Either what you want is different than what others are willing to buy, or the vendor will go out of business. Either way, you're not affected.
OSOK 0
QuoteQuoteBanning swooping in 'any' way is the same as banning guns. We don't need to ban guns, just teach people how to use them so accidents don't continue to happen.
It has nothing to do with guns. Really bad exmaple!
Swooping is not a crime, bad ass flying is.
Exactly. Owning guns isn't a crime either, but using them a certain way is. See the correlation?
Quotereply]
Again you are reading into this things that are not there. No one has said there will be no more low passes on regular Eloy jump days; read what Bryan, Betsy and Larry wrote again.
Perhaps you should read their posts again. When they say that it isn't economically viable, and that swooping, like classic accuarcy, is not encouraged makes it sound like if you want to ask for a low pass you might as well ask them to cut off their right arm.
QuoteCanuck,
The essay was Bryan's opinion on the matter of economic value and not necessarily that of the management at Skydive Arizona nor Larry Hill.
For point of clarification, Bryan is one of 3 S&TAs here and a contracted employee (pimarily for large events).
B2
billvon 2,446
>So what are the alternatives, a seperate landing areas is one, but not all
>DZs have that luxury.
I would tend to doubt that. I have never been at a DZ that did not have room for two landing areas. Even the tiny airport I started at - Skydive Long Island when it was at Spadaro's - had room for several landing areas. I don't think I've ever been at a smaller one. Airtight? Still bigger than Spadaro's. The Ranch? Heck, they dug their very own swoop pond!
>What are we to do when more DZs follow SDAZ's model?
That will definitely dent swooping. A good alternative might be to pressure USPA to come up with a more general, swooper-friendly BSR, like the separate-landing area one.
For a long time the mantra of many swoopers was "let DZO's make their own decisions!" Now that that's happening, I think many swoopers don't like the result. Getting USPA involved could allow swooping and normal patterns to coexist more peacefully, and give dropzones a better model to follow than SDAZ's.
>DZs have that luxury.
I would tend to doubt that. I have never been at a DZ that did not have room for two landing areas. Even the tiny airport I started at - Skydive Long Island when it was at Spadaro's - had room for several landing areas. I don't think I've ever been at a smaller one. Airtight? Still bigger than Spadaro's. The Ranch? Heck, they dug their very own swoop pond!
>What are we to do when more DZs follow SDAZ's model?
That will definitely dent swooping. A good alternative might be to pressure USPA to come up with a more general, swooper-friendly BSR, like the separate-landing area one.
For a long time the mantra of many swoopers was "let DZO's make their own decisions!" Now that that's happening, I think many swoopers don't like the result. Getting USPA involved could allow swooping and normal patterns to coexist more peacefully, and give dropzones a better model to follow than SDAZ's.
QuoteSo where is this sport going? Some DZs are catering to tandems and students and some DZs are only catering to big ways and teams. How are the future jumpers expected to gain the experience to become the future TMs and AFFIs when they are being discouraged from jumping.
You don't have to swoop or do BIG turns to be a AFFI or TM. I don't and I have no desire to. I prefer to be an instructior that doesn't have to tell their students "do as I say, not as I do" like all the AFFI's that HAVE to swoop or feel they are entitled on every jump. On an AFF jump, IMO, the instructors should fly the same pattern we tell our students to fly.
j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
If you want to swoop the small pocket rocket, you must first learn to swoop the large canopy. I'm not so sure I would call them swoops, but my first double front riser landings were on a Triathlon 220 and my first front riser turns to landings were on a Sabre2 190.
But what does this have to do with this thread? Nothing ...
I guess I'm still in shock for reading that hop n' pops are not economically viable at SDAZ so I guess you won't be seeing my sorry ass in AZ very much anymore.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
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