rehmwa 2 #26 January 16, 2007 QuoteClearly we shouldn't even consider this without hammering out a tax cut first. I'm glad you've finally come around. What are we tabling until the tax cut is approved? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #27 January 16, 2007 Quotewhat else does it take to deserve a response of violent force Quote Hang on a minute!!! YOU, the US, INVADED..what do you expect? What you think people will just say yeah fair enough bud and walk away after you have attacked them haha. What do I expect? I expect other nations to choose sides or stay out of it. If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. It doesn't mean we have to send ground troops to Tehran, but it shouldn't mean hands off either. Also, I claim that Iraq effectively started the war by shooting at us for years and ignoring the terms of the cease fire.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #28 January 16, 2007 and the beating of the war drums goes on and on and on.... What are you so frightened of? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #29 January 16, 2007 QuoteWhat are you so frightened of? Islamofacism. They are the modern day crusaders. They make that quite clear in their public pronouncements. Thank goodness we have a president with the guts to call it what it is - Islamofacism. They want us to think that diplomacy can solve this. What it will take is Arab leadership of the kind exhibited by Anwar Sadat. For now, that doesn't exist. It took being defeated by the Israelis to get Sadat to change heart.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites orribolollie 0 #30 January 16, 2007 I expect other nations to choose sides or stay out of it. If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. It doesn't mean we have to send ground troops to Tehran, but it shouldn't mean hands off either. Also, I claim that Iraq effectively started the war by shooting at us for years and ignoring the terms of the cease fire. Quote Firstly this war mongering as answer to everything, whilst realistic in your mind is a looooooser straight off - I refer you to Vietnam. Secondly it doesnt matter what YOU claim...the US (and yes the coalition) invaded Iraq on the well known WMD lie, so dont be trying to kid me, yourself or anyone else here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #31 January 16, 2007 We fought in Vietnam with our hands tied behind our backs - and we were the ones that did the tying. Fortunately, we learned not to fight wars like that. We didn't attack air bases across the border, didn't attack SAM sites if there were Soviets there. This is a forum for the expression of ideas, not for you to tell me what I can do.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites orribolollie 0 #32 January 16, 2007 Islamofacism. They are the modern day crusaders. They make that quite clear in their public pronouncements. Thank goodness we have a president with the guts to call it what it is - Islamofacism. They want us to think that diplomacy can solve this. What it will take is Arab leadership of the kind exhibited by Anwar Sadat. For now, that doesn't exist. It took being defeated by the Israelis to get Sadat to change heart. Quote Oh my GOD! Ok so now we are making up words. Well while we are going to enter cuckoo land i will join in for fun. Im afraid of - BUSHOFACISM !!! Bush and his cronies are the modern day crusaders if we are gonna make such a comparison Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #33 January 16, 2007 QuoteQuoteClearly we shouldn't even consider this without hammering out a tax cut first. I'm glad you've finally come around. What are we tabling until the tax cut is approved? What's this? Are we talking about offsetting a tax cut in order to be fiscally responsible? you know, "no new deficit spending" kinda stuff? That's just "lib" crazy talk, damn near un-American Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #34 January 16, 2007 Bush isn't trying to impose by force a religion on the rest of the world. That is the stated objective of the Islamofacists. I think it is great that Bush called it what it is. He's not afraid of being politically incorrect.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #35 January 16, 2007 There is no real way that we are ever going to be able to discuss this because our Reference Points are so far apart. Cheers anyway. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #36 January 16, 2007 >Islamofacism. -------- It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. . . . Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable'. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. -George Orwell ------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #37 January 16, 2007 > If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #38 January 16, 2007 I agree, the term facism is often applied incorrectly. I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. Applying it to our president or shopkeepers or fox hunting, etc. doesn't fit the definition well, I think. Maybe it is time for a new word, the definition, however, doesn't have to change.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites orribolollie 0 #39 January 16, 2007 Islamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #40 January 16, 2007 >I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. I think Orwell's description sums it up very nicely. We currently hate islamic terrorists, so they're islamofascists. During the cold war, the USSR was often described as a fascist regime. If we get mad at China, they will become the sinofascists. Posters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. It would be easier to just call them all "bad." No reason to use a five dollar word when a one dollar word will do - and convey exactly the same meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #41 January 16, 2007 Quote> If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border, attacked even where Soviet aids were stationed. The Soviets were trying to appear that they weren't really part of the war, they weren't willing to be complete allies with NV, so there is good reason to think they would have backed down. If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #42 January 16, 2007 >I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border . . . Right. We didn't, and we ended up winning the Cold War. Had we attacked, they may well have retaliated - and both sides may have lost millions. A lot of smart people thought Saddam had WMD's, and that rockets would never be able to fly in space without air to push against. >If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 129 #43 January 16, 2007 How 'bout this? If we are being told ANYTHING by the US govt about what Iran or Iraq is doing - then we ought to be damn skeptical, given that they have only lied to us in the past about what was really going on. Sounds like they want to drum up support for an Iranian invasion if this is what is being touted. Seen that anywhere before? TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #44 January 17, 2007 Iranians in Iraq is not new. They literally followed us into Najaf, then they came in again for the Pilgrimage they had been denied for SH's entire rule (or a major part of at least). I remember asking my Interpreter, about the crowd and he explained it. Then he started pointing out those who traveled with the crowds who didn't happen to be there for religious reasons. We started putting teams on them and latter caught many in the act of committing Terrorism (or fighting the western infidel, what ever floats your boat). He also took us to a weapons cache of several hundred 105 and 155 Artillery Rounds, all Chem, but not all full (around 50/50). It was very funny after the initial shock and scare watching the NBC NCO use the charcoal decon kits. All I kept hearing (not matter what they said) was "Mammy!". Ironic it took almost 4 years for that to make the news. I know it is not nearly the amount we would have thought, with the work up we all got, but it was some. Add that to the mobile labs, Chem decon Kits, care labs and the "Beds" who said they saw stuff carried by IRG Forces over the border to Syria and Iran. It still seams not enough for all, including the POTUS based on Sundays comments, but it is some form of proof. Enough to justify the last 4 years? Not my call. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #45 January 17, 2007 Thank you for relating your experiences. Thank you for being willing to have those experiences.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #46 January 17, 2007 Quote>If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. We can agree on some things. I think we've properly learned the lesson to not fight a war with such self-imposed restrictions as we had in N. Vietnam.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #47 January 17, 2007 QuotePosters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. There's a principle in defamation law that states: "Truth is an absolute defense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #48 January 17, 2007 QuoteI think that attacking Iran for this would be about as wise as attacking the USSR for their involvement in Vietnam. We're fighting a proxy war over there; even our president admits that we're not fighting Iraqis so much as terrorists from other countries. Other countries may well do the same, and get a piece of that proxy war. I'd expect denials from Iran for a while, then an announcement that they are not fighting the US, but rather "protecting the rights of the Shi'a/Sunni/Medhi Army" or some other such rhetoric. I'm with Billvon. As long as it's not overt, there's nothing to be gained by getting physical yet, as it will open a huge can of both worms and whoop-ass. The Persians have a well-earned reutation for feistiness, and with them, it won't be roadside bombs, it'll be modern combined-arms assaults. Best to keep it as-is, and deal with the captured Iranians in Iraq on a case-by-case basis for now. The reason the Saudis are considering sending troops to Iraq is bcause of Iranian meddling. This is a situation that the Sunni Arab world has long feared: an Arab country coming under the control of not just the Shia heretics, but one that is is cahoots with Iran. If Iran succeeds in their gambit (making Iraq a Shia vassal state), they will control about 30% of the world's energy supply. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #49 January 17, 2007 If I remember correctly Democracy means the will of the majority, that’s why we vote on things. What most people vote for usually happens. The Majority of Iraq is Shia so I don’t see them having any thing but a Shia government unless we decide to interfere once again. Unfortunately at best Iraq will have a government much like Iran. That is not a great outcome at all, but it is an outcome many predicted before the war even started.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #50 January 17, 2007 QuoteIslamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? What cracks me up is how sunny can not see anything but his own narrow view. So let me get this straight the “terrorist” are like crusaders. How is it that we are in the “crusaders land”? How come we invaded their country for no reason, or at best for being stupid and falling for some BS? How come there are so many Christian solders and military bases on Muslims land? Who is exactly the crusader here? I don’t know maybe Sunny is watching some other war.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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shropshire 0 #28 January 16, 2007 and the beating of the war drums goes on and on and on.... What are you so frightened of? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #29 January 16, 2007 QuoteWhat are you so frightened of? Islamofacism. They are the modern day crusaders. They make that quite clear in their public pronouncements. Thank goodness we have a president with the guts to call it what it is - Islamofacism. They want us to think that diplomacy can solve this. What it will take is Arab leadership of the kind exhibited by Anwar Sadat. For now, that doesn't exist. It took being defeated by the Israelis to get Sadat to change heart.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orribolollie 0 #30 January 16, 2007 I expect other nations to choose sides or stay out of it. If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. It doesn't mean we have to send ground troops to Tehran, but it shouldn't mean hands off either. Also, I claim that Iraq effectively started the war by shooting at us for years and ignoring the terms of the cease fire. Quote Firstly this war mongering as answer to everything, whilst realistic in your mind is a looooooser straight off - I refer you to Vietnam. Secondly it doesnt matter what YOU claim...the US (and yes the coalition) invaded Iraq on the well known WMD lie, so dont be trying to kid me, yourself or anyone else here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #31 January 16, 2007 We fought in Vietnam with our hands tied behind our backs - and we were the ones that did the tying. Fortunately, we learned not to fight wars like that. We didn't attack air bases across the border, didn't attack SAM sites if there were Soviets there. This is a forum for the expression of ideas, not for you to tell me what I can do.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites orribolollie 0 #32 January 16, 2007 Islamofacism. They are the modern day crusaders. They make that quite clear in their public pronouncements. Thank goodness we have a president with the guts to call it what it is - Islamofacism. They want us to think that diplomacy can solve this. What it will take is Arab leadership of the kind exhibited by Anwar Sadat. For now, that doesn't exist. It took being defeated by the Israelis to get Sadat to change heart. Quote Oh my GOD! Ok so now we are making up words. Well while we are going to enter cuckoo land i will join in for fun. Im afraid of - BUSHOFACISM !!! Bush and his cronies are the modern day crusaders if we are gonna make such a comparison Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #33 January 16, 2007 QuoteQuoteClearly we shouldn't even consider this without hammering out a tax cut first. I'm glad you've finally come around. What are we tabling until the tax cut is approved? What's this? Are we talking about offsetting a tax cut in order to be fiscally responsible? you know, "no new deficit spending" kinda stuff? That's just "lib" crazy talk, damn near un-American Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #34 January 16, 2007 Bush isn't trying to impose by force a religion on the rest of the world. That is the stated objective of the Islamofacists. I think it is great that Bush called it what it is. He's not afraid of being politically incorrect.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #35 January 16, 2007 There is no real way that we are ever going to be able to discuss this because our Reference Points are so far apart. Cheers anyway. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #36 January 16, 2007 >Islamofacism. -------- It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. . . . Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable'. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. -George Orwell ------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #37 January 16, 2007 > If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #38 January 16, 2007 I agree, the term facism is often applied incorrectly. I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. Applying it to our president or shopkeepers or fox hunting, etc. doesn't fit the definition well, I think. Maybe it is time for a new word, the definition, however, doesn't have to change.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites orribolollie 0 #39 January 16, 2007 Islamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #40 January 16, 2007 >I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. I think Orwell's description sums it up very nicely. We currently hate islamic terrorists, so they're islamofascists. During the cold war, the USSR was often described as a fascist regime. If we get mad at China, they will become the sinofascists. Posters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. It would be easier to just call them all "bad." No reason to use a five dollar word when a one dollar word will do - and convey exactly the same meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #41 January 16, 2007 Quote> If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border, attacked even where Soviet aids were stationed. The Soviets were trying to appear that they weren't really part of the war, they weren't willing to be complete allies with NV, so there is good reason to think they would have backed down. If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #42 January 16, 2007 >I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border . . . Right. We didn't, and we ended up winning the Cold War. Had we attacked, they may well have retaliated - and both sides may have lost millions. A lot of smart people thought Saddam had WMD's, and that rockets would never be able to fly in space without air to push against. >If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 129 #43 January 16, 2007 How 'bout this? If we are being told ANYTHING by the US govt about what Iran or Iraq is doing - then we ought to be damn skeptical, given that they have only lied to us in the past about what was really going on. Sounds like they want to drum up support for an Iranian invasion if this is what is being touted. Seen that anywhere before? TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #44 January 17, 2007 Iranians in Iraq is not new. They literally followed us into Najaf, then they came in again for the Pilgrimage they had been denied for SH's entire rule (or a major part of at least). I remember asking my Interpreter, about the crowd and he explained it. Then he started pointing out those who traveled with the crowds who didn't happen to be there for religious reasons. We started putting teams on them and latter caught many in the act of committing Terrorism (or fighting the western infidel, what ever floats your boat). He also took us to a weapons cache of several hundred 105 and 155 Artillery Rounds, all Chem, but not all full (around 50/50). It was very funny after the initial shock and scare watching the NBC NCO use the charcoal decon kits. All I kept hearing (not matter what they said) was "Mammy!". Ironic it took almost 4 years for that to make the news. I know it is not nearly the amount we would have thought, with the work up we all got, but it was some. Add that to the mobile labs, Chem decon Kits, care labs and the "Beds" who said they saw stuff carried by IRG Forces over the border to Syria and Iran. It still seams not enough for all, including the POTUS based on Sundays comments, but it is some form of proof. Enough to justify the last 4 years? Not my call. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #45 January 17, 2007 Thank you for relating your experiences. Thank you for being willing to have those experiences.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #46 January 17, 2007 Quote>If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. We can agree on some things. I think we've properly learned the lesson to not fight a war with such self-imposed restrictions as we had in N. Vietnam.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #47 January 17, 2007 QuotePosters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. There's a principle in defamation law that states: "Truth is an absolute defense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #48 January 17, 2007 QuoteI think that attacking Iran for this would be about as wise as attacking the USSR for their involvement in Vietnam. We're fighting a proxy war over there; even our president admits that we're not fighting Iraqis so much as terrorists from other countries. Other countries may well do the same, and get a piece of that proxy war. I'd expect denials from Iran for a while, then an announcement that they are not fighting the US, but rather "protecting the rights of the Shi'a/Sunni/Medhi Army" or some other such rhetoric. I'm with Billvon. As long as it's not overt, there's nothing to be gained by getting physical yet, as it will open a huge can of both worms and whoop-ass. The Persians have a well-earned reutation for feistiness, and with them, it won't be roadside bombs, it'll be modern combined-arms assaults. Best to keep it as-is, and deal with the captured Iranians in Iraq on a case-by-case basis for now. The reason the Saudis are considering sending troops to Iraq is bcause of Iranian meddling. This is a situation that the Sunni Arab world has long feared: an Arab country coming under the control of not just the Shia heretics, but one that is is cahoots with Iran. If Iran succeeds in their gambit (making Iraq a Shia vassal state), they will control about 30% of the world's energy supply. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #49 January 17, 2007 If I remember correctly Democracy means the will of the majority, that’s why we vote on things. What most people vote for usually happens. The Majority of Iraq is Shia so I don’t see them having any thing but a Shia government unless we decide to interfere once again. Unfortunately at best Iraq will have a government much like Iran. That is not a great outcome at all, but it is an outcome many predicted before the war even started.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #50 January 17, 2007 QuoteIslamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? What cracks me up is how sunny can not see anything but his own narrow view. So let me get this straight the “terrorist” are like crusaders. How is it that we are in the “crusaders land”? How come we invaded their country for no reason, or at best for being stupid and falling for some BS? How come there are so many Christian solders and military bases on Muslims land? Who is exactly the crusader here? I don’t know maybe Sunny is watching some other war.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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sundevil777 94 #31 January 16, 2007 We fought in Vietnam with our hands tied behind our backs - and we were the ones that did the tying. Fortunately, we learned not to fight wars like that. We didn't attack air bases across the border, didn't attack SAM sites if there were Soviets there. This is a forum for the expression of ideas, not for you to tell me what I can do.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orribolollie 0 #32 January 16, 2007 Islamofacism. They are the modern day crusaders. They make that quite clear in their public pronouncements. Thank goodness we have a president with the guts to call it what it is - Islamofacism. They want us to think that diplomacy can solve this. What it will take is Arab leadership of the kind exhibited by Anwar Sadat. For now, that doesn't exist. It took being defeated by the Israelis to get Sadat to change heart. Quote Oh my GOD! Ok so now we are making up words. Well while we are going to enter cuckoo land i will join in for fun. Im afraid of - BUSHOFACISM !!! Bush and his cronies are the modern day crusaders if we are gonna make such a comparison Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #33 January 16, 2007 QuoteQuoteClearly we shouldn't even consider this without hammering out a tax cut first. I'm glad you've finally come around. What are we tabling until the tax cut is approved? What's this? Are we talking about offsetting a tax cut in order to be fiscally responsible? you know, "no new deficit spending" kinda stuff? That's just "lib" crazy talk, damn near un-American Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #34 January 16, 2007 Bush isn't trying to impose by force a religion on the rest of the world. That is the stated objective of the Islamofacists. I think it is great that Bush called it what it is. He's not afraid of being politically incorrect.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #35 January 16, 2007 There is no real way that we are ever going to be able to discuss this because our Reference Points are so far apart. Cheers anyway. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #36 January 16, 2007 >Islamofacism. -------- It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. . . . Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable'. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. -George Orwell ------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #37 January 16, 2007 > If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #38 January 16, 2007 I agree, the term facism is often applied incorrectly. I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. Applying it to our president or shopkeepers or fox hunting, etc. doesn't fit the definition well, I think. Maybe it is time for a new word, the definition, however, doesn't have to change.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites orribolollie 0 #39 January 16, 2007 Islamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #40 January 16, 2007 >I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. I think Orwell's description sums it up very nicely. We currently hate islamic terrorists, so they're islamofascists. During the cold war, the USSR was often described as a fascist regime. If we get mad at China, they will become the sinofascists. Posters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. It would be easier to just call them all "bad." No reason to use a five dollar word when a one dollar word will do - and convey exactly the same meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #41 January 16, 2007 Quote> If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border, attacked even where Soviet aids were stationed. The Soviets were trying to appear that they weren't really part of the war, they weren't willing to be complete allies with NV, so there is good reason to think they would have backed down. If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #42 January 16, 2007 >I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border . . . Right. We didn't, and we ended up winning the Cold War. Had we attacked, they may well have retaliated - and both sides may have lost millions. A lot of smart people thought Saddam had WMD's, and that rockets would never be able to fly in space without air to push against. >If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 129 #43 January 16, 2007 How 'bout this? If we are being told ANYTHING by the US govt about what Iran or Iraq is doing - then we ought to be damn skeptical, given that they have only lied to us in the past about what was really going on. Sounds like they want to drum up support for an Iranian invasion if this is what is being touted. Seen that anywhere before? TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #44 January 17, 2007 Iranians in Iraq is not new. They literally followed us into Najaf, then they came in again for the Pilgrimage they had been denied for SH's entire rule (or a major part of at least). I remember asking my Interpreter, about the crowd and he explained it. Then he started pointing out those who traveled with the crowds who didn't happen to be there for religious reasons. We started putting teams on them and latter caught many in the act of committing Terrorism (or fighting the western infidel, what ever floats your boat). He also took us to a weapons cache of several hundred 105 and 155 Artillery Rounds, all Chem, but not all full (around 50/50). It was very funny after the initial shock and scare watching the NBC NCO use the charcoal decon kits. All I kept hearing (not matter what they said) was "Mammy!". Ironic it took almost 4 years for that to make the news. I know it is not nearly the amount we would have thought, with the work up we all got, but it was some. Add that to the mobile labs, Chem decon Kits, care labs and the "Beds" who said they saw stuff carried by IRG Forces over the border to Syria and Iran. It still seams not enough for all, including the POTUS based on Sundays comments, but it is some form of proof. Enough to justify the last 4 years? Not my call. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #45 January 17, 2007 Thank you for relating your experiences. Thank you for being willing to have those experiences.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #46 January 17, 2007 Quote>If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. We can agree on some things. I think we've properly learned the lesson to not fight a war with such self-imposed restrictions as we had in N. Vietnam.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #47 January 17, 2007 QuotePosters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. There's a principle in defamation law that states: "Truth is an absolute defense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #48 January 17, 2007 QuoteI think that attacking Iran for this would be about as wise as attacking the USSR for their involvement in Vietnam. We're fighting a proxy war over there; even our president admits that we're not fighting Iraqis so much as terrorists from other countries. Other countries may well do the same, and get a piece of that proxy war. I'd expect denials from Iran for a while, then an announcement that they are not fighting the US, but rather "protecting the rights of the Shi'a/Sunni/Medhi Army" or some other such rhetoric. I'm with Billvon. As long as it's not overt, there's nothing to be gained by getting physical yet, as it will open a huge can of both worms and whoop-ass. The Persians have a well-earned reutation for feistiness, and with them, it won't be roadside bombs, it'll be modern combined-arms assaults. Best to keep it as-is, and deal with the captured Iranians in Iraq on a case-by-case basis for now. The reason the Saudis are considering sending troops to Iraq is bcause of Iranian meddling. This is a situation that the Sunni Arab world has long feared: an Arab country coming under the control of not just the Shia heretics, but one that is is cahoots with Iran. If Iran succeeds in their gambit (making Iraq a Shia vassal state), they will control about 30% of the world's energy supply. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #49 January 17, 2007 If I remember correctly Democracy means the will of the majority, that’s why we vote on things. What most people vote for usually happens. The Majority of Iraq is Shia so I don’t see them having any thing but a Shia government unless we decide to interfere once again. Unfortunately at best Iraq will have a government much like Iran. That is not a great outcome at all, but it is an outcome many predicted before the war even started.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #50 January 17, 2007 QuoteIslamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? What cracks me up is how sunny can not see anything but his own narrow view. So let me get this straight the “terrorist” are like crusaders. How is it that we are in the “crusaders land”? How come we invaded their country for no reason, or at best for being stupid and falling for some BS? How come there are so many Christian solders and military bases on Muslims land? Who is exactly the crusader here? I don’t know maybe Sunny is watching some other war.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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idrankwhat 0 #33 January 16, 2007 QuoteQuoteClearly we shouldn't even consider this without hammering out a tax cut first. I'm glad you've finally come around. What are we tabling until the tax cut is approved? What's this? Are we talking about offsetting a tax cut in order to be fiscally responsible? you know, "no new deficit spending" kinda stuff? That's just "lib" crazy talk, damn near un-American Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #34 January 16, 2007 Bush isn't trying to impose by force a religion on the rest of the world. That is the stated objective of the Islamofacists. I think it is great that Bush called it what it is. He's not afraid of being politically incorrect.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #35 January 16, 2007 There is no real way that we are ever going to be able to discuss this because our Reference Points are so far apart. Cheers anyway. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #36 January 16, 2007 >Islamofacism. -------- It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. . . . Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable'. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. -George Orwell ------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #37 January 16, 2007 > If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #38 January 16, 2007 I agree, the term facism is often applied incorrectly. I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. Applying it to our president or shopkeepers or fox hunting, etc. doesn't fit the definition well, I think. Maybe it is time for a new word, the definition, however, doesn't have to change.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orribolollie 0 #39 January 16, 2007 Islamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #40 January 16, 2007 >I think the dictionary definition fits very to this usage. I think Orwell's description sums it up very nicely. We currently hate islamic terrorists, so they're islamofascists. During the cold war, the USSR was often described as a fascist regime. If we get mad at China, they will become the sinofascists. Posters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. It would be easier to just call them all "bad." No reason to use a five dollar word when a one dollar word will do - and convey exactly the same meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #41 January 16, 2007 Quote> If they choose to fight against us, then they are to be attacked. We were smart enough not to do that during Vietnam, which is one of the reasons you are here to be able to post this. I would like to think that with each generation we get a bit smarter, or at least not slide further down the hill. Hopefully we will be smart enough to learn from history. I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border, attacked even where Soviet aids were stationed. The Soviets were trying to appear that they weren't really part of the war, they weren't willing to be complete allies with NV, so there is good reason to think they would have backed down. If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #42 January 16, 2007 >I lot of smart people think that we should have attacked across the border . . . Right. We didn't, and we ended up winning the Cold War. Had we attacked, they may well have retaliated - and both sides may have lost millions. A lot of smart people thought Saddam had WMD's, and that rockets would never be able to fly in space without air to push against. >If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 129 #43 January 16, 2007 How 'bout this? If we are being told ANYTHING by the US govt about what Iran or Iraq is doing - then we ought to be damn skeptical, given that they have only lied to us in the past about what was really going on. Sounds like they want to drum up support for an Iranian invasion if this is what is being touted. Seen that anywhere before? TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #44 January 17, 2007 Iranians in Iraq is not new. They literally followed us into Najaf, then they came in again for the Pilgrimage they had been denied for SH's entire rule (or a major part of at least). I remember asking my Interpreter, about the crowd and he explained it. Then he started pointing out those who traveled with the crowds who didn't happen to be there for religious reasons. We started putting teams on them and latter caught many in the act of committing Terrorism (or fighting the western infidel, what ever floats your boat). He also took us to a weapons cache of several hundred 105 and 155 Artillery Rounds, all Chem, but not all full (around 50/50). It was very funny after the initial shock and scare watching the NBC NCO use the charcoal decon kits. All I kept hearing (not matter what they said) was "Mammy!". Ironic it took almost 4 years for that to make the news. I know it is not nearly the amount we would have thought, with the work up we all got, but it was some. Add that to the mobile labs, Chem decon Kits, care labs and the "Beds" who said they saw stuff carried by IRG Forces over the border to Syria and Iran. It still seams not enough for all, including the POTUS based on Sundays comments, but it is some form of proof. Enough to justify the last 4 years? Not my call. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #45 January 17, 2007 Thank you for relating your experiences. Thank you for being willing to have those experiences.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #46 January 17, 2007 Quote>If we weren't willing to do this, we should have given up much earlier than we did. Yep. We can agree on some things. I think we've properly learned the lesson to not fight a war with such self-imposed restrictions as we had in N. Vietnam.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #47 January 17, 2007 QuotePosters here who don't like Bush call him a fascist. There's a principle in defamation law that states: "Truth is an absolute defense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #48 January 17, 2007 QuoteI think that attacking Iran for this would be about as wise as attacking the USSR for their involvement in Vietnam. We're fighting a proxy war over there; even our president admits that we're not fighting Iraqis so much as terrorists from other countries. Other countries may well do the same, and get a piece of that proxy war. I'd expect denials from Iran for a while, then an announcement that they are not fighting the US, but rather "protecting the rights of the Shi'a/Sunni/Medhi Army" or some other such rhetoric. I'm with Billvon. As long as it's not overt, there's nothing to be gained by getting physical yet, as it will open a huge can of both worms and whoop-ass. The Persians have a well-earned reutation for feistiness, and with them, it won't be roadside bombs, it'll be modern combined-arms assaults. Best to keep it as-is, and deal with the captured Iranians in Iraq on a case-by-case basis for now. The reason the Saudis are considering sending troops to Iraq is bcause of Iranian meddling. This is a situation that the Sunni Arab world has long feared: an Arab country coming under the control of not just the Shia heretics, but one that is is cahoots with Iran. If Iran succeeds in their gambit (making Iraq a Shia vassal state), they will control about 30% of the world's energy supply. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #49 January 17, 2007 If I remember correctly Democracy means the will of the majority, that’s why we vote on things. What most people vote for usually happens. The Majority of Iraq is Shia so I don’t see them having any thing but a Shia government unless we decide to interfere once again. Unfortunately at best Iraq will have a government much like Iran. That is not a great outcome at all, but it is an outcome many predicted before the war even started.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #50 January 17, 2007 QuoteIslamofacists - oh man that kills me. What really kills me is the way he spins the propaganda and you just soak it up like a sponge. First its Al Qaida..then its WMD, and now its Islamofacists, whatever they are. Im guessing you beleived in WMD right? And I notice you didnt argue the US invading Iraq point? What cracks me up is how sunny can not see anything but his own narrow view. So let me get this straight the “terrorist” are like crusaders. How is it that we are in the “crusaders land”? How come we invaded their country for no reason, or at best for being stupid and falling for some BS? How come there are so many Christian solders and military bases on Muslims land? Who is exactly the crusader here? I don’t know maybe Sunny is watching some other war.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
