The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

[SpeedRacer 1]

I am merely trying to say that non-quantifiable reality exists. Whatever you mean by "supernatural" is whole other can of peas.

Speed Racer
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[karenmeal 0]

This is pretty much what I mean by the use of the word supernatural. (From dictionary.com.)

–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.
–noun 5. a being, place, object, occurrence, etc., considered as supernatural or of supernatural origin; that which is supernatural, or outside the natural order.
6. behavior supposedly caused by the intervention of supernatural beings.
7. direct influence or action of a deity on earthly affairs.
8. the supernatural, a. supernatural beings, behavior, and occurrences collectively.
b. supernatural forces and the supernatural plane of existence: a deep fear of the supernatural.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[D-rock 0]

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Going back to my high school geometry class, two lines that are parallel to the same line are parallel to each other. That is an axiom. No mathematical proof exists of this, but it is assumed - taken for granted, in fact. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. Sound familiar?

You should check out proofs by construction.

[beowulf 1]

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I know that one!

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.
.

I am feeling all warm and fuzzy now.

You shouldn't. It was having stuff like this rammed down my throat from age 5 to 18 that convinced me that religion in general (and Christianity in particular) is not only silly, but actually harmful.

I can relate to that. My mother is a Jehovah's Witness. Imagine that childhood.

[skysaintj 0]

OK .. fair enough of you to ask proof and only undeniable proof right ... but

I think it's personal experience (experiencing God cause you gave him a chance to show his love and because you have made the choice) allowing Him to in work your life ...After prayer for certain people i have seen 2 people get up from wheelchairs after being paralized for round 20 years , i have seen people get healed from cancer,aids and all kinds of deseases and even broken backs right in front of my eyes - if you try and find out you will find medical records for these as proof that whatever desease,illness or the fact that they were paralized from birth to the day they were healed - the records are there and only explained as a miracle , lots of doctors have given God a chance after experiencing him through other peoples lives - how would you explain this ?

I have said and asked this before and i will say it again because i can - Why do you think the longest threads on all the forums i have visited points back to something relating to God,Religion,Evolution,Creation etc (your root belief system) You should ask yourself why is that ??? ... At the end of the day the only thing there is to all this , is that God leaves us with a CHOICE and that will be the case until you die.
That is what the Gospel and the Bible is about .. the Good News that there is salvation for those who choose to accept it.If you don't accept it God will make the choices after that that cause i don't believe every person will be judged the same and i don't want to try and think what God would do because that's just stoopid ..all i'll do is limit Him in my own mind and so many people do that from the start ..not a good idea

On the science side of it - If science has proven 100% that evolution is true or that God is truth we would not have this debate and all the forums and all the scientists either experimenting , trying to prove evolution or other scientist experimenting trying to prove the opposite....There have been theories which looked good for a while on both sides ... The evolution theory is fading very fast , well that's just my choice to believe that right - I'm sure you have your own ideas and also already made your CHOICE .....what the reasons are behind that choice i believe is different for all of us.

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[MyTwoCents 0]

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Indeed, the line between reason and religion is similarly fine - all reasoning is based upon underlying assumptions.

Reason and logic are all based upon "axioms." Axioms cannot be derived through deduction. You cannot prove an axiom. An axiom is something that is simply stated as a truth, and is the foundation for theorems and all lines of logic and reasoning that come after.

Going back to my high school geometry class, two lines that are parallel to the same line are parallel to each other. That is an axiom. No mathematical proof exists of this, but it is assumed - taken for granted, in fact. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. Sound familiar?

This is the system of logic upon which both you and I place a great value. Still, we put faith that in the "assumption" that Euclid's "assumption" was correct. Can't be proven or disproven, but your entire system of thought is based upon assumptions. I would assume that you can shake hands with God at this. Wink See the light? The light of reason being imploded because you cannot prove it. They've tried for eons to prove this assumption and can't do it.

How is this different than putting faith in the unproven God?

Wow, that made me cringe. You're doing reason such an enormous disservice that if you'd be sitting next to me I'd give you a gentle smack in the head...

There is an enormous difference. Reason says: "assuming X is true, and assuming deductive logic, then we can conclude that Y is true.".

I've read both the Koran and the Bible. As far as I know, the word "assumption" does not appear in either. We are encouraged to take the axioms (as far as they deserve that word) on face value and never question them. Science, on the other hand, encourages us to question our axioms, and will greatly welcome anybody who succesfully challenges one (as history has proven (yes, there are exceptions, but on the whole science welcomes change)).

What does religion do to those that challenge them? Burn 'm at the stake, that's what.

There is a thing that hasn't been succesfully been pointed out in this thread, so I'll give it another shot (knowing that I too will fail with too few words). People are overlooking the enormous success that science and reason has had over the past centuries. We are living longer, we are curing diseases, we are traveling faster than ever, and we have landed on the moon. Even those that disagree that a moon-landing is a miracle will surely agree that it is a good thing that we have cures for what once were deadly diseases.

Cue people that will tell me how spirituality and homeopathy can cure too. That's fine, but you best believe that if I get cancer I'm walking into the nearest Western hospital. If spirituality and homeopathy was so good, why is life expectancy still lower in Buddhist Asia?

The same with people who blame science for many of the world's problems (that's you David Ehrenfeld). I don't see them going back to nature living a neanderthaler life.

That is not to say that science doesn't have many undesirable side-effects, but on the whole it has shaped an environment that I much prefer over the one that existed a decade, a century and a millenium ago.

But I digress. This whole discussion is rather pointless for two reasons.

• Reason truly is different than religion. You can't compare them. Reason invites challenge, religion requires blind dogma.


• Give it another few hundred years and we'll look back on this century with embarrassement. Gay people can marry, condoms are free on the streets, and early abortion is encouraged. It's a simple matter of extrapolating history...

Lastly, to all religious people who take themselves more serious than they would take their FSM believing neighbour; you are all retarded.

[D-rock 0]

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...After prayer for certain people i have seen 2 people get up from wheelchairs after being paralized for round 20 years , i have seen people get healed from cancer,aids and all kinds of deseases and even broken backs right in front of my eyes - if you try and find out you will find medical records for these as proof that whatever desease,illness or the fact that they were paralized from birth to the day they were healed - the records are there and only explained as a miracle , lots of doctors have given God a chance after experiencing him through other peoples lives - how would you explain this ?

Please show us these "records" and then we can talk more. Also just because science can't explain everything doesn't mean that god exists. Finally, It seems to me that god has this great ability to heal things that are hard to test and verify. Why hasn't god caused someones arm or leg to grow back? Further reading:http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

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On the science side of it - If science has proven 100% that evolution is true or that God is truth we would not have this debate and all the forums and all the scientists either experimenting , trying to prove evolution or other scientist experimenting trying to prove the opposite....There have been theories which looked good for a while on both sides ... The evolution theory is fading very fast

This statement exhibits a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of science and the scientific method. If some new evidence is found that proves the theory of evolution false, a new theory that uses the new evidence will be created.

[Nightingale 0]

I've never understood why it is that creationists believe they prove creationism right by trying (unsuccessfully) to prove evolution wrong.

It's not an "If not A then B" type of thing.

[lawrocket 3]

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you have been trained in the art of arguing

actually, my training is in digging down to the threshold questions, meaning that if it I am told, "If x then y" I ask, "Well, what is x?" A question that needs to be answered before I can arrive at y.

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you make the assumption that I put faith in there being no god.

No. I merely posit that at the base of everything are underlying assumptions that can be deduced no further. Logic and reason make baseline assumptions upon which everything else is based. Example: I want to prove that two lines will never intersect. I bisect the lines with a line and measure the inside angles. The angles add up to 180. Therefore, the lines are parallel and will not bisect. That is logic and reason.

BUT - that assumes that Euclid was right about the inner angles equaling 180 degrees. It is taken for granted. It is assumed.

Religions assume a God and predicate all logic on that assumption, much like geometry is based on assumptions. By applying logic to the baseline assumption that there is a God, then you've got religious doctrine.

Make more sense?

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I happen to think it is less probable that there is a supernatural realm than simply a natural world that can be measured, tested and observed, because all available evidence points to this conclusion.

So is there no dark matter? It can only be inferred using present assumptions about the laws of physics. And I studied law, so I know some things!

Yet, it is widely accepted as true, even though the evidence for it is shaky - only implication. Thus, putting belief in "dark matter" into the realm of faith. All available evidence points TO some force we don't understand, yet we can't prove it. Nor can we prove it doesn't exist.

Assume that aliens landed on earth. I'll believe it when I see it. Assume also they come

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If evidence pointed a different way, then I would tend to believe that way. But it doesn't.

And coming from your baseline axioms, any logical inference of actual evidence would be founded upon your axioms. Which is okay, by the way.

As I have said, I agree with you. But it is a value judgment about which axioms we predicate our logic upon. That is all.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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I've read both the Koran and the Bible. As far as I know, the word "assumption" does not appear in either.

I don't see, "assuming" in any axiom, either. But an axiom is assumed - taken for granted. True of false? Say true.

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Science, on the other hand, encourages us to question our axioms, and will greatly welcome anybody who succesfully challenges one (as history has proven (yes, there are exceptions, but on the whole science welcomes change)).

Ah! But you can't prove an axiom. Yet, it is expected by religious to prove there is a God. It's called a double-standard.

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What does religion do to those that challenge them? Burn 'm at the stake, that's what.

What does secularism do to those that challenge it? What does communism do to those that challenge it? What does a police state do to those who challenge it? Exactly what Socrates said the cave dweller would do to those who challenged his belief of reality. Read Plato's Republic.

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People are overlooking the enormous success that science and reason has had over the past centuries.

Yes, by guys like Thomas Aquinas. Even the religious zealot Isaac Newton.

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Reason truly is different than religion. You can't compare them. Reason invites challenge, religion requires blind dogma.

Axioms are dogma, too. Axioms are the building blocks of reason that cannot be proven any more that the existence of God can be proven.

Get past your dogma and see it what it really is. A dogma. I simply choose to belive the scientific dogma, but I also get to the threshhold questions.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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No logical or mathematical proof exists to show that the sum of the angles of a triangle will equal 180 degrees. It just is assumed to be true, and with that foundation, no exception has been found.


.

Bad choice of analogy, counselor. www.cut-the-knot.org/triangle/pythpar/AnglesInTriangle.shtml

Yeah, it looks like it. But, does my thought process pass muster?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[D-rock 0]

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BUT - that assumes that Euclid was right about the inner angles equaling 180 degrees. It is taken for granted. It is assumed.

It isn't assumed. You can verify Euclid with a proof by construction, if you like. Good science (especially math) is testable, verifiable and reproducible. God is not.

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So is there no dark matter? It can only be inferred using present assumptions about the laws of physics. And I studied law, so I know some things!Wink

Yet, it is widely accepted as true, even though the evidence for it is shaky - only implication. Thus, putting belief in "dark matter" into the realm of faith. All available evidence points TO some force we don't understand, yet we can't prove it. Nor can we prove it doesn't exist.

Assume that aliens landed on earth. I'll believe it when I see it. Assume also they come

You can't point to some small part of science and say "see they aren't 100% sure on this one point, therefore all of science is assumptions". Dark Matter an educated guess at how the universe works. It is not a dogma, if a better explanation comes along the theory will be changed. If you have a better explanation of why the universe is expanding I'm sure the physics community would love to here it.

[D-rock 0]

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Ah! But you can't prove an axiom. Yet, it is expected by religious to prove there is a God. It's called a double-standard.

Show me an axiom and I will show you something that is testable, verifiable, and reproducible. God is not.

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What does religion do to those that challenge them? Burn 'm at the stake, that's what.

What does secularism do to those that challenge it? What does communism do to those that challenge it? What does a police state do to those who challenge it? Exactly what Socrates said the cave dweller would do to those who challenged his belief of reality. Read Plato's Republic.

I'm not going to defend commies or police states but just because they do bad things does not make it okay for the "righteous" Christians to do equally bad things. Also, When is that last time a bunch of scientists got together and burned someone at the stake?

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People are overlooking the enormous success that science and reason has had over the past centuries.

Yes, by guys like Thomas Aquinas. Even the religious zealot Isaac Newton.

So because there were some Christian scientists, all scientific advancement is due to Christianity? Newton's scientific advancements were due to his embracing logic and reason not due to his embracing the bible.

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Reason truly is different than religion. You can't compare them. Reason invites challenge, religion requires blind dogma.

Axioms are dogma, too. Axioms are the building blocks of reason that cannot be proven any more that the existence of God can be proven.

Get past your dogma and see it what it really is. A dogma. I simply choose to belive the scientific dogma, but I also get to the threshhold questions.

Science and these phantom axioms == testable, verifiable and reproducible
God != testable, verifiable and reproducible

[philh 0]

"After prayer for certain people i have seen 2 people get up from wheelchairs after being paralized for round 20 years , i have seen people get healed from cancer,aids and all kinds of deseases and even broken backs right in front of my eyes "

Your statement is meaningless and heres why:
One cant possibly see someone cured of cancer, aids or most other serious diseases. In order to say somone is cured takes a long diagnostic process over many weeks or months. So I would ask what is was you saw the made you conclude you saw someone cured from cancer or aids before your eyes?
As far as people get up out of wheel chairs. This is a well known trick, what faith healers often do is to interview people before they sit down in the hall. two targets are sought after, one are those in wheel chairs, who need them becuase they cant walk long distances,but can actually walk, the other are the group who dont need wheel chairs but still find walking hard. The latter group are offered wheel chairs and the former group are sat with them. the faith healers then gets people to walk who were in wheelchairs and the audience swears blind that they saw people healed by the faith healer. In fact all they have seen is a confidence trick.

This is very similar to a magic trick, all magicians know this one fact; that the audience remebers the rouitne differently to the way it actually happened. The illusion is created and the brain goes along with it and often embellishes it. That is what frequently happens in faith healing. Now I know you dont believ me that this applies to you and that you are sure of what you saw. But I would say two things; one thats exactly what happens in all magic tricks. Secondly if you would like to read the documentation of this , I suggest the following book:
"the Faith Healers" by James Randi. Randi spent some time investigting faith healers and amongst other things exposed Peter Popoff who made the audience believe he was diving people illnesses through spiritual means wheareas infact he used a micro transmitter hidden in his ear and was getting prayer cards transmitted to him by his wife! After much investigation Randi conlcuded that not a single case of verifiable faith healing had ever occurred.
But even if it had why would that prove god exists? This would be the worst case of selective data mining. There are so many prayers that dont get answered do we count that against the existence of god? Certainly Christians don't. Just like any bad scientist they ingore the mass of data they dont like and if some occasional bit fo data comes along that seemes to verify their beliefs they clutch at it, blinded to the rest. Its a very poor reason to believe.

Lastly on your quote "If science has proven 100% that evolution is true " science doesnt prove anyhting, proof only exists in mathematics. What we can get to is a state where there is overwhelming evidence in favour of a hypothesis and that is where we are with evolution. You will find no doubts about evolution in the scientific literature. i live in europe here evolution is not remotely a controversial subject, both theists and atheists alike accept it. Only in the USA (within the Western world) is it seen so controversial, I think that tells you the debate is a cultural one, not a scientific one.

[Stumpy 256]

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... The evolution theory is fading very fast ,

Ha ha - good one.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[JackC 0]

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No logical or mathematical proof exists to show that the sum of the angles of a triangle will equal 180 degrees. It just is assumed to be true, and with that foundation, no exception has been found.


.

Bad choice of analogy, counselor. www.cut-the-knot.org/triangle/pythpar/AnglesInTriangle.shtml

Yeah, it looks like it. But, does my thought process pass muster?

I'm not convinced you're comparing like with like. The only real axiom in science is that the universe exists and we can interact with it and measure aspects of it. How do we know that we are not figments of some computer simulation? Answer: we don't.

In some ways, it is irrellevant if the axiom that the universe exists and we are part of it is true or not. All we know is our perspective within the universe, if that perspective is wrong, we may never know. Even if it is not true, it wouldn't make much difference to how we learn about our surroundings, we have no choice but to live within that axiom.

Euclidean geometry is then only a physical theory within that axiom. Even though it is not totally accurate as Einstein showed, it is extremely useful on non-relativistic scales.

That axiom is altered slightly by "spiritual" people. They suggest that the universe (defined as all that exists) is not all that exists. There is something outside of the universe that may be able to interact with humans (ie part of the universe) in some way but is otherwise undetectable by even the most sophisticated scientific equipment.

Religion then suggests that this extra-universal "thing" is the creator of all things (conveniently ignoring the infinite regress) and builds on this hypothesis even though it has no empirical justification, makes no testable predictions and fails to explain any physical phenomenon.

Religious or not, just about everyone accepts the same axiom that the universe exists and we are part of it. But instead of then relying on empirical observation and self correcting re-examination of the facts within that axiom, the religious then extend that axiom from necessary to unnecessary without justification and then, to varing extents, believe the mythology of a bunch of bronze age nomads.

At least thats the way I see it.

[jakee 1,257]

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Here, you are basing your arguments on the assumption that science is better than faith. It so happens that I agree with your ideological slant. However, you are making value judgments about what is good and bad, right and wrong. Ironically, this is what religion does. It simply bases right and wrong on different assumptions. By the way, Socrates discussed this as well when Glaucon raised the point that laws are designed to be societal agreements not to be unjust to each other.

So, in a sense, thereis a tacit admission that there is some other force. Perhaps "God" is like the hidden hand in economics - the acknowledged but undefinable characteristic that binds society. We know it's there - we just don't know what it is.

I'm sorry what? Why do mutually beneficial laws involve a tacit admission of another force? That badly needs explanation.

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Going back to my high school geometry class, two lines that are parallel to the same line are parallel to each other. That is an axiom. No mathematical proof exists of this, but it is assumed - taken for granted, in fact. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. Sound familiar?

How is this different than putting faith in the unproven God? No logical or mathematical proof exists to show that the sum of the angles of a triangle will equal 180 degrees. It just is assumed to be true, and with that foundation, no exception has been found.

You can sit down and draw millions of triangles and they will all fit the axiom. You can draw as many parrallel lines as you want And they will all be exactly parrallel. It doesn't matter if you want the axiom to be true or not you can show that it holds for every example you draw. Draw me god on any scale and show that its true.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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The basis is the simple experience of one's own soul (or sense of self awareness, or whatever your word for it is). There may be physical phenomena that are associated with it which are quantifiable (ie, electro-chemical signals between neurons in your brain) but quantifying all of these is not the same as actually experiencing what it feels like to be human. Living, loving, hating, feeling, thinking, etc.

So animals also have souls?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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Religions assume a God and predicate all logic on that assumption, much like geometry is based on assumptions. By applying logic to the baseline assumption that there is a God, then you've got religious doctrine.

Ah so are we now taling about generic faith in a generic god, or are we looking at specific religions? Religions use god to build theories on creation and other scientific matters that are demonstrably false. I am also not quite sure how applying logic to the god assumption leads to doctrine like "homosexuality is evil" and "everyone who doesn't believe what you believe is evil"?

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So is there no dark matter? It can only be inferred using present assumptions about the laws of physics. And I studied law, so I know some things!

Yet, it is widely accepted as true, even though the evidence for it is shaky - only implication. Thus, putting belief in "dark matter" into the realm of faith. All available evidence points TO some force we don't understand, yet we can't prove it. Nor can we prove it doesn't exist.

It might exist, or it might not. General relativity or gravitational theory might be slightly wrong instead.

Dark matter is a theory with a lot of support, because it would neatly account for observed behaviour of galaxies. OTOH the continued lack of any observations of dark matter is causing much head scratching and soul searching. No one will accept it as true until it can be demonstrated.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skysaintj 0]

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"After prayer for certain people i have seen 2 people get up from wheelchairs after being paralized for round 20 years , i have seen people get healed from cancer,aids and all kinds of deseases and even broken backs right in front of my eyes "

Your statement is meaningless and heres why:
One cant possibly see someone cured of cancer, aids or most other serious diseases. In order to say somone is cured takes a long diagnostic process over many weeks or months. So I would ask what is was you saw the made you conclude you saw someone cured from cancer or aids before your eyes?
As far as people get up out of wheel chairs. This is a well known trick, what faith healers often do is to interview people before they sit down in the hall. two targets are sought after, one are those in wheel chairs, who need them becuase they cant walk long distances,but can actually walk, the other are the group who dont need wheel chairs but still find walking hard. The latter group are offered wheel chairs and the former group are sat with them. the faith healers then gets people to walk who were in wheelchairs and the audience swears blind that they saw people healed by the faith healer. In fact all they have seen is a confidence trick.

This is very similar to a magic trick, all magicians know this one fact; that the audience remebers the rouitne differently to the way it actually happened. The illusion is created and the brain goes along with it and often embellishes it. That is what frequently happens in faith healing. Now I know you dont believ me that this applies to you and that you are sure of what you saw. But I would say two things; one thats exactly what happens in all magic tricks. Secondly if you would like to read the documentation of this , I suggest the following book:
"the Faith Healers" by James Randi. Randi spent some time investigting faith healers and amongst other things exposed Peter Popoff who made the audience believe he was diving people illnesses through spiritual means wheareas infact he used a micro transmitter hidden in his ear and was getting prayer cards transmitted to him by his wife! After much investigation Randi conlcuded that not a single case of verifiable faith healing had ever occurred.
But even if it had why would that prove god exists? This would be the worst case of selective data mining. There are so many prayers that dont get answered do we count that against the existence of god? Certainly Christians don't. Just like any bad scientist they ingore the mass of data they dont like and if some occasional bit fo data comes along that seemes to verify their beliefs they clutch at it, blinded to the rest. Its a very poor reason to believe.

Lastly on your quote "If science has proven 100% that evolution is true " science doesnt prove anyhting, proof only exists in mathematics. What we can get to is a state where there is overwhelming evidence in favour of a hypothesis and that is where we are with evolution. You will find no doubts about evolution in the scientific literature. i live in europe here evolution is not remotely a controversial subject, both theists and atheists alike accept it. Only in the USA (within the Western world) is it seen so controversial, I think that tells you the debate is a cultural one, not a scientific one.

dr.phil ....Your choice is to believe that the idiot trying to make some money out of christians etc..really believes in God and that is what all christians are out to do

...ok there , i've said it again IT'S YOUR CHOICE !!

I've not given a cent to any church , in fact i have not been to church in 10 years , but i pray and experience God everyday in my life cause it's the choice i made..The more you get to know God cause it does not happen overnight the more you get to know about Satan and his trickery , he is quite brilliant sometimes as i have come to know but i'm getting better at defeating him in the choices i make as the Holy Spirit guides me to better days daily..

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[NCclimber 0]

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I've never understood why it is that creationists believe they prove creationism right by trying (unsuccessfully) to prove evolution wrong.

It's not an "If not A then B" type of thing.

It's kind of like so many in the "Theory of Evolution is indisputable" camp, who are quick to label anyone who questions their theory as a creationist nut job. It's about defending your beliefs.

[pirana 0]

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As far as preaching to the choir, I think in a great sense, that is quite often inevitable in these sorts of matters. For someone to feel like he wasn't just addressing his arguments at atheists he would probably need to lie and say that he agrees with major aspects of Christianity or some other religion just to get people to listen. Without doing this, I can imagine that many Christians (or other religious folk) will disregard anything that comes out of his mouth as rubbish simply because he doesn't agree with them.

Exactly. I've read much on the topic, and while I find it interesting to examine how people come to believe things - and some very weird things indeed - a religious believer is never going to get far at all into this kind of material. They have an automatic denial reflex on anything that contradicts their beliefs. For them, hope and desire are the equivalent, or better than, evidence.

Deductive reasoning, logic, empirical evidence, scientific thought, critical thinking, etc will never ever never ever never sway someone from the faith based beliefs.

Well, not very often anyway.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Stumpy 256]

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I've never understood why it is that creationists believe they prove creationism right by trying (unsuccessfully) to prove evolution wrong.

It's not an "If not A then B" type of thing.

It's kind of like so many in the "Theory of Evolution is indisputable" camp, who are quick to label anyone who questions their theory as a creationist nut job. It's about defending your beliefs.

The thing is, there haven't been many real challenges to evolutionary theory apart from the "Creationist nut job" camp. And they without exception do it so badly that they basically give themselves the "Nut job" label.

Its not about defending your beliefs at all, its about applying scientific rigor to any given theory. If there are inconsistencies in evolutionary theory or areas where we do not quite understand something, that means they are areas for study and further research.

"If we do not understand it completely then it must be my imaginary friend that made all this" is NOT a valid answer.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[skysaintj 0]

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I've never understood why it is that creationists believe they prove creationism right by trying (unsuccessfully) to prove evolution wrong.

It's not an "If not A then B" type of thing.

It's kind of like so many in the "Theory of Evolution is indisputable" camp, who are quick to label anyone who questions their theory as a creationist nut job. It's about defending your beliefs.

Good point - most people here have made their choice and they will stick to it forever or are there some who have changed their whole belief system lately like Anthony Flew did....

http://www.arn.org/docs/williams/pw_antonyflew.htm

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[skysaintj 0]

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Hopefully this book will provide me with some fodder to win back my brother from the clutches of the Southern Baptist movement.

I am curious. If being part of this religion makes him happy then why change it? Trying to push atheism on someone can arguably be seen as the equivalent of a churchgoer trying to convert someone to his/her religion. To each thier own.

Cheers

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it