Orange1 0 #1 November 4, 2006 Some thoughts arising from this thread in incidents http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2512839;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread When I did FJC and we did hazardous landings, we were taught the following for landing on a roof: - flare - PLF - if wind is strong enough to start dragging you, cut away your main (I realise none of this may help if you hit hard unexpectedly, like in a turn. ) Was wondering if the experienced jumpers have anything to add or other things to take into consideration?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #2 November 5, 2006 I'm not that experienced but I do remember being told that disconnecting my RSL wouldn't be a bad idea before cutting away... just on the off chance that my main would take off with enough speed to deploy the reserve.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #3 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm not that experienced but I do remember being told that disconnecting my RSL wouldn't be a bad idea before cutting away... just on the off chance that my main would take off with enough speed to deploy the reserve. Either the main WILL leave with enough force to pull the reserve pin or it won't leave. It will be retained by the RSL lanyard and the unpulled reserve ripcord. But, just because the reserve pin is pulled (which is all a normal RSL does, this description doesn't apply to a rig with a Skyhook) doesn't mean that the reserve will deploy. The pilot chute will launch but it has to be blown far enough with enough force to remove the bag, deploy the lines, and strip the bag. Then you would still need enough wind to inflate a packed and stacked canopy. The point is that don't keep the fact that the reserve will open from cutting away a main dragging you into danger. The reserve won't inflate in any wind you'll be jumping in. And in an emergency such as this you won't have time to find and release the RSL lanyard. It's worth repeating in this thread that if you become suspended from your main whether on a roop, in a tree or otherwise and are not touching the ground stay there until help comes. Any fall or drop could be serious. And jumpers have been killed by their chest strap after undoing their legstraps to drop to the ground.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #4 November 5, 2006 Quote Either the main WILL leave with enough force to pull the reserve pin or it won't leave. It will be retained by the RSL lanyard and the unpulled reserve ripcord. But, just because the reserve pin is pulled (which is all a normal RSL does, this description doesn't apply to a rig with a Skyhook) doesn't mean that the reserve will deploy. The pilot chute will launch but it has to be blown far enough with enough force to remove the bag, deploy the lines, and strip the bag. Then you would still need enough wind to inflate a packed and stacked canopy. If it's dangling off a roof, can gravity help strip off bag and make it easier for wind to inflate the canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampThing 0 #5 November 5, 2006 QuoteIf it's dangling off a roof, can gravity help strip off bag and make it easier for wind to inflate the canopy? Quote Hit the target and you don't need to worry about the what if's of your reserve bag dangling off a roof The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #6 November 5, 2006 I'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #7 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm not that experienced but I do remember being told that disconnecting my RSL wouldn't be a bad idea before cutting away... just on the off chance that my main would take off with enough speed to deploy the reserve. Hopefully you mean before cutting away on the ground. On really windy days, I disconnect the RSL on the tandems at 1000 feet, as per the manual. It paid off one day when I had to chop after landing due to strong winds. It's not a bad procedure for high wind landings for regular jumps, either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #8 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #9 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. I did an SL FJC, dunno if that makes a difference. It took basically a full day (approx 8am to 5pm with the jumps the next morning), of which most was exit count and EPs, canopy control obviously, but the hazardous landings was fairly thorough. At that DZ there were quite a few buildings near the LZ, so maybe that's why?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #10 November 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth? longer how? More hours? More days? One can only absorb so much information, esp without practical experience to apply it towards. If you had a second day long class at the point where the student is cleared for self supervision, you could add a lot of bulk, but before then.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #11 November 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf it's dangling off a roof, can gravity help strip off bag and make it easier for wind to inflate the canopy? Quote Hit the target and you don't need to worry about the what if's of your reserve bag dangling off a roof with respect, "Don't fuck up" is one of the most worthless pearls of wisdom in skydiving. People will. I asked for clarification. I don't know what the answer will actually tell me - by the time you're in that situation it's too late to do anything preventative - but maybe it changes the response, or makes me think about disconnecting the rsl at 1000 as one poster does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #12 November 6, 2006 Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #13 November 6, 2006 Quote I did an SL FJC, dunno if that makes a difference. It took basically a full day (approx 8am to 5pm with the jumps the next morning), of which most was exit count and EPs, canopy control obviously, but the hazardous landings was fairly thorough. At that DZ there were quite a few buildings near the LZ, so maybe that's why? I teach static line, but we have about a 4-5 hour class, depending on class size, and if you get any stupid students. I care very much about the welfare of my students, but you can "detail" them to death while they forget the most important parts of the class. I feel time is much better spent practicing skills that will be needed than going on and on about low probablility stuff that may be confusing. Very few students get drug by their square canopies up here in the Pacific Northwest, much less drug off buildings. I'd love to have 2 weeks and a dozen simulators to train every student, but the reality is the 4-5 hour class, jump the same afternoon. I think we do a good job. Our injury rate is nil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #14 November 6, 2006 We had a big class that day - 20 people or so, took a while to get everyone through harness training - but even so the basic course would have been way longer than 4-5 hours I think. As a matter of interest (this is thread drift, but it is my thread ) ... if you cover stuff on a "need to know" basis, do you follow up more closely with students who do end up coming back and becoming regulars? It seems to me with many FJCs there are "knowledge gaps" that may or may not be filled as the student comes back - even at the same DZ where different instructors take the FJC - possibly on the assumption that for most students it will end up being a once-off jump. I take your point entirely about detail overload though... I remember being exhausted at the end of class.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #15 November 6, 2006 QuoteScared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." And, this is the issue for me on two points. First, if we look at the core curriculum of the FJC, the number of TLO's to time do not fit into a 4-5 hour class. As a result, most Instructors will tailor the FJC to the area and either minimilize some TLO's. But, the USPA FJC program is "supposed" to have reciprocity between DZ's across the country. If one has been thru an FJC and goes to another - the assumption is that one has learned all the TLO's of the FJC to proficiency. Second, the factor of fear can be reduced by building confidence thru a feeling of proficiency. I've reached a point where I won't teach a 4-5 hour cookie cutter FJC and am now an independent Instructor with my own criteria for the FJC and work with a couple of DZ's where I have "Instructor" priviledges - I teach, then bring the student to their DZ. The class starts on Thursday evening for four hours, two-three hours on Friday night, and/or another three-five hours on Saturday morning at the DZ on the day of the jump and the class is limited to five students/instructor. The curriculum is broken into chunks, they are assigned both performance-oriented homework and reading assignements. It also gives them time to ask questions (and they are encouraged to find questions). Then, we review all the performance-oriented TLO's from the previous session. Anyway, not to develop an argument, nor have you think that this is a Rob vs. Bigun difference of instructional methodolgy (cause you know that I respect a lot of your opinions on here). It's more of a program discussion. I just don't think all the TLO's can be met in the 4-5 hour class and "choose" not to try to fit it in to that timeframe for the sake of "DZ efficiency." I strongly believe that most students walk away after their first jump after a 4-5 hour class feeling lucky, rather than confident. Don't get me wrong. I understand why most DZ's train the way they do and when I had a DZ, it wasn't the most financially successful, but we measured our success in a qualitative way. I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #16 November 8, 2006 In my FJC class, I am heavy on body position, EPs, canopy control, landing patterns and PLFs. Since we have a lot of trees around, I emphasize tree landings and to a lesser extent, power line landings because some of our outs have some power lines running through them. As for buildings, I do tell them to unhook the RSL prior to landing and then cutaway after landing...in reality, a reserve being pulled out and inflating is rather uncommon but a reserve re-pack is more common so the reasoning is to save the re-pack costs just in case the pull on the main would be enough to pull the reserve pin. I don't think the added info about unhooking the RSL for a building landing is too much info to pass on to an FJC Level 1 student especially when you have them practice it on the ground before the jump. Knock on wood, so far we haven't had a building landing here.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #17 November 8, 2006 I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If I had a choice, I would spread the first jump course over two or three days, with two or three hours of instruction per day. Like you, I would assign homework (i.e. reading assignments) and the second day would start with a quiz - to determine if they had read the homework. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #18 November 9, 2006 Agreed. WE do both the perfromance-oriented homework, but have doen the reading quiz as verbal questions. A formalized written quiz may be of more value.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #19 November 10, 2006 QuoteAgreed. WE do both the perfromance-oriented homework, but have doen the reading quiz as verbal questions. A formalized written quiz may be of more value. Good stuff, Keith. I'll develop one for our own FJC class since this DZ doesn't currently do the written testing...only oral.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #20 November 10, 2006 Yeah, Andy. I know a couple of DZ's that still do them - if for no other reason than to not only be able to show their FJC course curriculum in the event of something catastrophic, but to demonstrate the student actually learned it.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jojo69 0 #21 November 10, 2006 I think an optional review course around jump 15 - 20 would be great. When I took my first jump course, I left feeling more confused than anything else. Yes, I listened and watched the videos but that is not how I learn. I probably would have been able to take a quiz by repeating what was told to me but that does not mean that I know what I was talking about. I had no problems with the jumps but that is body awareness and control not knowledge taught during the FJC I have taken Scott Millers basic canopy course twice. e first time I took it (<100 jumps) I did not understand everything but I took away a feeling that I would be safer under canopy than before the course. (sort of like my FJC) The second time I took it I was amazed at how much more I understood and retained. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #22 November 11, 2006 You bring up an important point.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davehartley 0 #23 November 23, 2006 The way i reckon it, 99% of first jump students who manage to fly into a hazard have brain locked, and failed to react to advice on the radio. I would threfore doubt very much if they would remember the training, or heed radio advice to disconnect the RSL, as they are obviously not remembering much else. ( come to think of it, I would not want to hear the word "disconnect" uttered by anyone on talkdown, for obvious reasons). I would also doubt that anyone, never mind a first time jumper, would have time to unhook an rsl (with shaking hands) in the time between knowing they are going to land in / on a hazard, and actually doing so. Worse case scenario, is that somewhere from deep in their brain locked head, they do remember the instruction and then spend the next 5 to 10 seconds fumbling at the link before flying full drive into the upright wall of the building they thought they were going to land on. At the DZ where I teach (static line), the RSL connector links on student gear need a spanner to unhook them, which prevents any accidental (or deliberate )disconnection. Although i jump without RSL (personal choice, but probably skyhook on next set of kit), I can see no good reason for a student RSL to be disconnected at any time ( avoiding a reserve re pack now and then does not qualify IMHO). Flame away, no doubt there are loads of scenarios coming my way.Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
JohnMitchell 14 #6 November 5, 2006 I'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #7 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm not that experienced but I do remember being told that disconnecting my RSL wouldn't be a bad idea before cutting away... just on the off chance that my main would take off with enough speed to deploy the reserve. Hopefully you mean before cutting away on the ground. On really windy days, I disconnect the RSL on the tandems at 1000 feet, as per the manual. It paid off one day when I had to chop after landing due to strong winds. It's not a bad procedure for high wind landings for regular jumps, either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #8 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #9 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. I did an SL FJC, dunno if that makes a difference. It took basically a full day (approx 8am to 5pm with the jumps the next morning), of which most was exit count and EPs, canopy control obviously, but the hazardous landings was fairly thorough. At that DZ there were quite a few buildings near the LZ, so maybe that's why?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #10 November 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth? longer how? More hours? More days? One can only absorb so much information, esp without practical experience to apply it towards. If you had a second day long class at the point where the student is cleared for self supervision, you could add a lot of bulk, but before then.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #11 November 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf it's dangling off a roof, can gravity help strip off bag and make it easier for wind to inflate the canopy? Quote Hit the target and you don't need to worry about the what if's of your reserve bag dangling off a roof with respect, "Don't fuck up" is one of the most worthless pearls of wisdom in skydiving. People will. I asked for clarification. I don't know what the answer will actually tell me - by the time you're in that situation it's too late to do anything preventative - but maybe it changes the response, or makes me think about disconnecting the rsl at 1000 as one poster does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #12 November 6, 2006 Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #13 November 6, 2006 Quote I did an SL FJC, dunno if that makes a difference. It took basically a full day (approx 8am to 5pm with the jumps the next morning), of which most was exit count and EPs, canopy control obviously, but the hazardous landings was fairly thorough. At that DZ there were quite a few buildings near the LZ, so maybe that's why? I teach static line, but we have about a 4-5 hour class, depending on class size, and if you get any stupid students. I care very much about the welfare of my students, but you can "detail" them to death while they forget the most important parts of the class. I feel time is much better spent practicing skills that will be needed than going on and on about low probablility stuff that may be confusing. Very few students get drug by their square canopies up here in the Pacific Northwest, much less drug off buildings. I'd love to have 2 weeks and a dozen simulators to train every student, but the reality is the 4-5 hour class, jump the same afternoon. I think we do a good job. Our injury rate is nil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #14 November 6, 2006 We had a big class that day - 20 people or so, took a while to get everyone through harness training - but even so the basic course would have been way longer than 4-5 hours I think. As a matter of interest (this is thread drift, but it is my thread ) ... if you cover stuff on a "need to know" basis, do you follow up more closely with students who do end up coming back and becoming regulars? It seems to me with many FJCs there are "knowledge gaps" that may or may not be filled as the student comes back - even at the same DZ where different instructors take the FJC - possibly on the assumption that for most students it will end up being a once-off jump. I take your point entirely about detail overload though... I remember being exhausted at the end of class.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #15 November 6, 2006 QuoteScared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." And, this is the issue for me on two points. First, if we look at the core curriculum of the FJC, the number of TLO's to time do not fit into a 4-5 hour class. As a result, most Instructors will tailor the FJC to the area and either minimilize some TLO's. But, the USPA FJC program is "supposed" to have reciprocity between DZ's across the country. If one has been thru an FJC and goes to another - the assumption is that one has learned all the TLO's of the FJC to proficiency. Second, the factor of fear can be reduced by building confidence thru a feeling of proficiency. I've reached a point where I won't teach a 4-5 hour cookie cutter FJC and am now an independent Instructor with my own criteria for the FJC and work with a couple of DZ's where I have "Instructor" priviledges - I teach, then bring the student to their DZ. The class starts on Thursday evening for four hours, two-three hours on Friday night, and/or another three-five hours on Saturday morning at the DZ on the day of the jump and the class is limited to five students/instructor. The curriculum is broken into chunks, they are assigned both performance-oriented homework and reading assignements. It also gives them time to ask questions (and they are encouraged to find questions). Then, we review all the performance-oriented TLO's from the previous session. Anyway, not to develop an argument, nor have you think that this is a Rob vs. Bigun difference of instructional methodolgy (cause you know that I respect a lot of your opinions on here). It's more of a program discussion. I just don't think all the TLO's can be met in the 4-5 hour class and "choose" not to try to fit it in to that timeframe for the sake of "DZ efficiency." I strongly believe that most students walk away after their first jump after a 4-5 hour class feeling lucky, rather than confident. Don't get me wrong. I understand why most DZ's train the way they do and when I had a DZ, it wasn't the most financially successful, but we measured our success in a qualitative way. I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #16 November 8, 2006 In my FJC class, I am heavy on body position, EPs, canopy control, landing patterns and PLFs. Since we have a lot of trees around, I emphasize tree landings and to a lesser extent, power line landings because some of our outs have some power lines running through them. As for buildings, I do tell them to unhook the RSL prior to landing and then cutaway after landing...in reality, a reserve being pulled out and inflating is rather uncommon but a reserve re-pack is more common so the reasoning is to save the re-pack costs just in case the pull on the main would be enough to pull the reserve pin. I don't think the added info about unhooking the RSL for a building landing is too much info to pass on to an FJC Level 1 student especially when you have them practice it on the ground before the jump. Knock on wood, so far we haven't had a building landing here.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #17 November 8, 2006 I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If I had a choice, I would spread the first jump course over two or three days, with two or three hours of instruction per day. Like you, I would assign homework (i.e. reading assignments) and the second day would start with a quiz - to determine if they had read the homework. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #18 November 9, 2006 Agreed. WE do both the perfromance-oriented homework, but have doen the reading quiz as verbal questions. A formalized written quiz may be of more value.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #19 November 10, 2006 QuoteAgreed. WE do both the perfromance-oriented homework, but have doen the reading quiz as verbal questions. A formalized written quiz may be of more value. Good stuff, Keith. I'll develop one for our own FJC class since this DZ doesn't currently do the written testing...only oral.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #20 November 10, 2006 Yeah, Andy. I know a couple of DZ's that still do them - if for no other reason than to not only be able to show their FJC course curriculum in the event of something catastrophic, but to demonstrate the student actually learned it.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jojo69 0 #21 November 10, 2006 I think an optional review course around jump 15 - 20 would be great. When I took my first jump course, I left feeling more confused than anything else. Yes, I listened and watched the videos but that is not how I learn. I probably would have been able to take a quiz by repeating what was told to me but that does not mean that I know what I was talking about. I had no problems with the jumps but that is body awareness and control not knowledge taught during the FJC I have taken Scott Millers basic canopy course twice. e first time I took it (<100 jumps) I did not understand everything but I took away a feeling that I would be safer under canopy than before the course. (sort of like my FJC) The second time I took it I was amazed at how much more I understood and retained. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #22 November 11, 2006 You bring up an important point.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davehartley 0 #23 November 23, 2006 The way i reckon it, 99% of first jump students who manage to fly into a hazard have brain locked, and failed to react to advice on the radio. I would threfore doubt very much if they would remember the training, or heed radio advice to disconnect the RSL, as they are obviously not remembering much else. ( come to think of it, I would not want to hear the word "disconnect" uttered by anyone on talkdown, for obvious reasons). I would also doubt that anyone, never mind a first time jumper, would have time to unhook an rsl (with shaking hands) in the time between knowing they are going to land in / on a hazard, and actually doing so. Worse case scenario, is that somewhere from deep in their brain locked head, they do remember the instruction and then spend the next 5 to 10 seconds fumbling at the link before flying full drive into the upright wall of the building they thought they were going to land on. At the DZ where I teach (static line), the RSL connector links on student gear need a spanner to unhook them, which prevents any accidental (or deliberate )disconnection. Although i jump without RSL (personal choice, but probably skyhook on next set of kit), I can see no good reason for a student RSL to be disconnected at any time ( avoiding a reserve re pack now and then does not qualify IMHO). Flame away, no doubt there are loads of scenarios coming my way.Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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BIGUN 1,062 #8 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #9 November 5, 2006 QuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. I did an SL FJC, dunno if that makes a difference. It took basically a full day (approx 8am to 5pm with the jumps the next morning), of which most was exit count and EPs, canopy control obviously, but the hazardous landings was fairly thorough. At that DZ there were quite a few buildings near the LZ, so maybe that's why?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #10 November 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm thinking that's way too detailed of instruction for an FJC. I teach obstacle landings in general, of course, and teach about trees, powerlines and water specifically. I jokingly mention that if you land on a roof, do a 2nd PLF when you fall off the roof, but that other stuff is too detailed. You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks. Make sure you concentrate on the important stuff, not the low, low, low probability stuff. Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth? longer how? More hours? More days? One can only absorb so much information, esp without practical experience to apply it towards. If you had a second day long class at the point where the student is cleared for self supervision, you could add a lot of bulk, but before then.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #11 November 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf it's dangling off a roof, can gravity help strip off bag and make it easier for wind to inflate the canopy? Quote Hit the target and you don't need to worry about the what if's of your reserve bag dangling off a roof with respect, "Don't fuck up" is one of the most worthless pearls of wisdom in skydiving. People will. I asked for clarification. I don't know what the answer will actually tell me - by the time you're in that situation it's too late to do anything preventative - but maybe it changes the response, or makes me think about disconnecting the rsl at 1000 as one poster does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #12 November 6, 2006 Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #12 November 6, 2006 Maybe if the FJC were longer and more in-depth? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #13 November 6, 2006 Quote I did an SL FJC, dunno if that makes a difference. It took basically a full day (approx 8am to 5pm with the jumps the next morning), of which most was exit count and EPs, canopy control obviously, but the hazardous landings was fairly thorough. At that DZ there were quite a few buildings near the LZ, so maybe that's why? I teach static line, but we have about a 4-5 hour class, depending on class size, and if you get any stupid students. I care very much about the welfare of my students, but you can "detail" them to death while they forget the most important parts of the class. I feel time is much better spent practicing skills that will be needed than going on and on about low probablility stuff that may be confusing. Very few students get drug by their square canopies up here in the Pacific Northwest, much less drug off buildings. I'd love to have 2 weeks and a dozen simulators to train every student, but the reality is the 4-5 hour class, jump the same afternoon. I think we do a good job. Our injury rate is nil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #14 November 6, 2006 We had a big class that day - 20 people or so, took a while to get everyone through harness training - but even so the basic course would have been way longer than 4-5 hours I think. As a matter of interest (this is thread drift, but it is my thread ) ... if you cover stuff on a "need to know" basis, do you follow up more closely with students who do end up coming back and becoming regulars? It seems to me with many FJCs there are "knowledge gaps" that may or may not be filled as the student comes back - even at the same DZ where different instructors take the FJC - possibly on the assumption that for most students it will end up being a once-off jump. I take your point entirely about detail overload though... I remember being exhausted at the end of class.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,062 #15 November 6, 2006 QuoteScared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." And, this is the issue for me on two points. First, if we look at the core curriculum of the FJC, the number of TLO's to time do not fit into a 4-5 hour class. As a result, most Instructors will tailor the FJC to the area and either minimilize some TLO's. But, the USPA FJC program is "supposed" to have reciprocity between DZ's across the country. If one has been thru an FJC and goes to another - the assumption is that one has learned all the TLO's of the FJC to proficiency. Second, the factor of fear can be reduced by building confidence thru a feeling of proficiency. I've reached a point where I won't teach a 4-5 hour cookie cutter FJC and am now an independent Instructor with my own criteria for the FJC and work with a couple of DZ's where I have "Instructor" priviledges - I teach, then bring the student to their DZ. The class starts on Thursday evening for four hours, two-three hours on Friday night, and/or another three-five hours on Saturday morning at the DZ on the day of the jump and the class is limited to five students/instructor. The curriculum is broken into chunks, they are assigned both performance-oriented homework and reading assignements. It also gives them time to ask questions (and they are encouraged to find questions). Then, we review all the performance-oriented TLO's from the previous session. Anyway, not to develop an argument, nor have you think that this is a Rob vs. Bigun difference of instructional methodolgy (cause you know that I respect a lot of your opinions on here). It's more of a program discussion. I just don't think all the TLO's can be met in the 4-5 hour class and "choose" not to try to fit it in to that timeframe for the sake of "DZ efficiency." I strongly believe that most students walk away after their first jump after a 4-5 hour class feeling lucky, rather than confident. Don't get me wrong. I understand why most DZ's train the way they do and when I had a DZ, it wasn't the most financially successful, but we measured our success in a qualitative way. I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #16 November 8, 2006 In my FJC class, I am heavy on body position, EPs, canopy control, landing patterns and PLFs. Since we have a lot of trees around, I emphasize tree landings and to a lesser extent, power line landings because some of our outs have some power lines running through them. As for buildings, I do tell them to unhook the RSL prior to landing and then cutaway after landing...in reality, a reserve being pulled out and inflating is rather uncommon but a reserve re-pack is more common so the reasoning is to save the re-pack costs just in case the pull on the main would be enough to pull the reserve pin. I don't think the added info about unhooking the RSL for a building landing is too much info to pass on to an FJC Level 1 student especially when you have them practice it on the ground before the jump. Knock on wood, so far we haven't had a building landing here.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #17 November 8, 2006 I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If I had a choice, I would spread the first jump course over two or three days, with two or three hours of instruction per day. Like you, I would assign homework (i.e. reading assignments) and the second day would start with a quiz - to determine if they had read the homework. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #14 November 6, 2006 We had a big class that day - 20 people or so, took a while to get everyone through harness training - but even so the basic course would have been way longer than 4-5 hours I think. As a matter of interest (this is thread drift, but it is my thread ) ... if you cover stuff on a "need to know" basis, do you follow up more closely with students who do end up coming back and becoming regulars? It seems to me with many FJCs there are "knowledge gaps" that may or may not be filled as the student comes back - even at the same DZ where different instructors take the FJC - possibly on the assumption that for most students it will end up being a once-off jump. I take your point entirely about detail overload though... I remember being exhausted at the end of class.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,062 #15 November 6, 2006 QuoteScared students can only absorb a small amount of information in one day, ergo, I tend to limit FJC information to "must knows." "Must knows" vary from one DZ to another. For example, when teaching on the prairies, I tend to minimize discussion of water landings. However, when teaching at Pitt Meadows I spend maybe 20 minutes talking about water landings, with emphasis on how to steer away from the Fraser River. As for landing on buildings, I teach pretty much the same as an high-wind landing: "pull in on one steering line - hand over hand - until you have fabric in hand." And, this is the issue for me on two points. First, if we look at the core curriculum of the FJC, the number of TLO's to time do not fit into a 4-5 hour class. As a result, most Instructors will tailor the FJC to the area and either minimilize some TLO's. But, the USPA FJC program is "supposed" to have reciprocity between DZ's across the country. If one has been thru an FJC and goes to another - the assumption is that one has learned all the TLO's of the FJC to proficiency. Second, the factor of fear can be reduced by building confidence thru a feeling of proficiency. I've reached a point where I won't teach a 4-5 hour cookie cutter FJC and am now an independent Instructor with my own criteria for the FJC and work with a couple of DZ's where I have "Instructor" priviledges - I teach, then bring the student to their DZ. The class starts on Thursday evening for four hours, two-three hours on Friday night, and/or another three-five hours on Saturday morning at the DZ on the day of the jump and the class is limited to five students/instructor. The curriculum is broken into chunks, they are assigned both performance-oriented homework and reading assignements. It also gives them time to ask questions (and they are encouraged to find questions). Then, we review all the performance-oriented TLO's from the previous session. Anyway, not to develop an argument, nor have you think that this is a Rob vs. Bigun difference of instructional methodolgy (cause you know that I respect a lot of your opinions on here). It's more of a program discussion. I just don't think all the TLO's can be met in the 4-5 hour class and "choose" not to try to fit it in to that timeframe for the sake of "DZ efficiency." I strongly believe that most students walk away after their first jump after a 4-5 hour class feeling lucky, rather than confident. Don't get me wrong. I understand why most DZ's train the way they do and when I had a DZ, it wasn't the most financially successful, but we measured our success in a qualitative way. I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 November 8, 2006 In my FJC class, I am heavy on body position, EPs, canopy control, landing patterns and PLFs. Since we have a lot of trees around, I emphasize tree landings and to a lesser extent, power line landings because some of our outs have some power lines running through them. As for buildings, I do tell them to unhook the RSL prior to landing and then cutaway after landing...in reality, a reserve being pulled out and inflating is rather uncommon but a reserve re-pack is more common so the reasoning is to save the re-pack costs just in case the pull on the main would be enough to pull the reserve pin. I don't think the added info about unhooking the RSL for a building landing is too much info to pass on to an FJC Level 1 student especially when you have them practice it on the ground before the jump. Knock on wood, so far we haven't had a building landing here.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 November 8, 2006 I think the primary question here is - "If you had a choice, how long and over how many days would you choose to teach all the TLO's for the FJC?" We posed the question to ourselves and then acted on the answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If I had a choice, I would spread the first jump course over two or three days, with two or three hours of instruction per day. Like you, I would assign homework (i.e. reading assignments) and the second day would start with a quiz - to determine if they had read the homework. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,062 #18 November 9, 2006 Agreed. WE do both the perfromance-oriented homework, but have doen the reading quiz as verbal questions. A formalized written quiz may be of more value.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #19 November 10, 2006 QuoteAgreed. WE do both the perfromance-oriented homework, but have doen the reading quiz as verbal questions. A formalized written quiz may be of more value. Good stuff, Keith. I'll develop one for our own FJC class since this DZ doesn't currently do the written testing...only oral.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,062 #20 November 10, 2006 Yeah, Andy. I know a couple of DZ's that still do them - if for no other reason than to not only be able to show their FJC course curriculum in the event of something catastrophic, but to demonstrate the student actually learned it.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jojo69 0 #21 November 10, 2006 I think an optional review course around jump 15 - 20 would be great. When I took my first jump course, I left feeling more confused than anything else. Yes, I listened and watched the videos but that is not how I learn. I probably would have been able to take a quiz by repeating what was told to me but that does not mean that I know what I was talking about. I had no problems with the jumps but that is body awareness and control not knowledge taught during the FJC I have taken Scott Millers basic canopy course twice. e first time I took it (<100 jumps) I did not understand everything but I took away a feeling that I would be safer under canopy than before the course. (sort of like my FJC) The second time I took it I was amazed at how much more I understood and retained. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,062 #22 November 11, 2006 You bring up an important point.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davehartley 0 #23 November 23, 2006 The way i reckon it, 99% of first jump students who manage to fly into a hazard have brain locked, and failed to react to advice on the radio. I would threfore doubt very much if they would remember the training, or heed radio advice to disconnect the RSL, as they are obviously not remembering much else. ( come to think of it, I would not want to hear the word "disconnect" uttered by anyone on talkdown, for obvious reasons). I would also doubt that anyone, never mind a first time jumper, would have time to unhook an rsl (with shaking hands) in the time between knowing they are going to land in / on a hazard, and actually doing so. Worse case scenario, is that somewhere from deep in their brain locked head, they do remember the instruction and then spend the next 5 to 10 seconds fumbling at the link before flying full drive into the upright wall of the building they thought they were going to land on. At the DZ where I teach (static line), the RSL connector links on student gear need a spanner to unhook them, which prevents any accidental (or deliberate )disconnection. Although i jump without RSL (personal choice, but probably skyhook on next set of kit), I can see no good reason for a student RSL to be disconnected at any time ( avoiding a reserve re pack now and then does not qualify IMHO). Flame away, no doubt there are loads of scenarios coming my way.Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
