Chavez Kalashnikov Factory Plan Stirs Fear

[kelpdiver 2]

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Notice how we stop supplying them once a crackhead gets in power and the Chinese and Russians are all to eager to supply them AFTER a crackhead comes into power? Do you REALLY think that the US is supplying "most" of the arms to the crackpots of the world? REALLY?

We supply our crackpots. Remember the Contras?

Of course China and the Russians were happy to move in after we bailed. They saw a new customer, one that had been a US exclusive.

[billvon 2,400]

>If you're giving them to nations that aren't threatening others, that's not a problem.
>If you're giving arms to crackpots that threaten others, that's a problem.

I agree. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the USA, countries/groups change their designation from "friendly" to "crackpot" pretty quickly. It wasn't so long ago that the Mujahideen and Saddam Hussein were our friends. A good argument for not arming other countries.

[Trent 0]

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define "decent" and "crackpot."

Decent: England, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, South Korea, Australia, Brazil, Taiwan, Japan etc. etc.

Crackpot: Iran, North Korea, Bolivia, Cuba, Liberia, take a pick of some African countries, now Venezuela... etc.

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Then show US consistency in selling to only "decent" ones.

The majority of sales are to "allies" or should I say, "allies at the time of sale", do you not think so?

Or is it just more fun to ignore the reality that the AK's, RPGs, russian rockets, mortars and shells DON'T come from the US and consistently seem to be the weapon of "bad guys"?

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 2,400]

> it just more fun to ignore the reality that the AK's, RPGs,
>russian rockets, mortars and shells DON'T come from the US . . .

Apparently it's even more fun to claim that people are saying russian rockets come from the US. I mean, what kind of idiot claims russian rockets come from the US? Ludicrous! That straw man is indeed a fool.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Or is it just more fun to ignore the reality that the AK's, RPGs, russian rockets, mortars and shells DON'T come from the US and consistently seem to be the weapon of "bad guys"?

It's safe to say that no one buys "russian rockets" from the US. Past that, your selective vision is blinding you. Or do you want to argue that the Contras belong in the decent camp?

[GTAVercetti 0]

Everyone belongs in the decent camp. As long as they are not attacking us on the day we sell them the weapons.

That is kind of how it works for every nation.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[jakee 1,254]

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Decent: England, France, Germany,

Co-incedentaly, three other nations in the top 5 arms dealers. So who are they selling to?

Either way, you called 'bullshit' to Billvons unqualified statement that the US provides a large part of the worlds arms trade. Its pretty clear that you were wrong.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Everyone belongs in the decent camp. As long as they are not attacking us on the day we sell them the weapons.

That is kind of how it works for every nation.

Yep, that's a pretty solid summation. It's a wishful fantasy to think one country operates at a higher ethical plane.

[JohnRich 4]

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>If you're giving them to nations that aren't threatening others, that's not a problem.
>If you're giving arms to crackpots that threaten others, that's a problem.

I agree. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the USA, countries/groups change their designation from "friendly" to "crackpot" pretty quickly. It wasn't so long ago that the Mujahideen and Saddam Hussein were our friends. A good argument for not arming other countries.

If we hadn't helped Sadaam, the Iranian crackpots would have taken over all those oil fields, and from there, threatened Saudi Arabia next. Imagine what world oil prices would be like with Iran in charge of most of the supply.

It was the lesser of two evils, and absolutely necessary at the time, to keep the entire Middle East from being destabilized.

If the U.S. sits back and does nothing in international affairs, as an isolationist, all manner of hell will break loose in the world.

P.S.
Yesterday, kallend agreed with me.
And now today, billvon has agreed with me.
Pigs must be flying!

[billvon 2,400]

>If we hadn't helped Sadaam, the Iranian crackpots would have taken
>over all those oil fields, and from there, threatened Saudi Arabia
>next. Imagine what world oil prices would be like with Iran in charge
>of most of the supply.

Imagine what world oil prices would be if we had taken all that money we spent on supporting Saddam, and the two wars that followed, and put them into alternative energy. (Hint - if the US reduced its oil usage by even 30%, oil prices would fall faster than Saddam's statue did. Supply and demand.)

>It was the lesser of two evils, and absolutely necessary at the time,
>to keep the entire Middle East from being destabilized.

?? You haven't mentioned anything about stabilization, just oil prices. But if stability were your main concern - Saddam was doing an excellent job of keeping Iraq stable; no terrorist breeding grounds, civil wars or insurgencies. So it can't be that.

[JohnRich 4]

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Either way, you called 'bullshit' to Billvons unqualified statement that the US provides a large part of the worlds arms trade. Its pretty clear that you were wrong.

It's also pretty clear that you just blindly consider all arm sales to be "evil", without bothering to consider how those arms are used. Should we not help our allies defend themselves from foreign aggressors? Arms for self defense are not evil.

This is similar to the gun-control folks who consider everyone who owns a gun to be a bad person, without bothering to consider that there are lawful gun owners who are not criminals. Only the armed criminals are the problem. The lawful don't hurt anyone.

Likewise, in world affairs, there are nations with arms that don't bother anyone, and nations that threaten others.

So you need to get over the focus on total sales, because it is meaningless.

[JohnRich 4]

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>It was the lesser of two evils, and absolutely necessary at the
>time, to keep the entire Middle East from being destabilized.

?? You haven't mentioned anything about stabilization, just oil prices.

The two go hand in hand.

[billvon 2,400]

>The two go hand in hand.

Hmm. So saying "we went to war to stabilize the middle east" would be very similar to saying "we went to war over oil?"

[jakee 1,254]

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It's also pretty clear that you just blindly consider all arm sales to be "evil"

Do I? My dad works for one of the largest arms companies in the world, I'd better go and let him know I think he's evil (BTW, he works on mine sweeping techniques). Bottom line, Trent said it was 'bullshit' that the US supplies a large part of the worlds armaments - I say he is wrong. Morality, the 'blue' side and the 'red' side don't come into it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[akarunway 1]

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Chavez Kalashnikov Factory Plan Stirs Fear
Sunday, June 18, 2006 5:54 PM EDT
The Associated Press
By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — President Hugo Chavez's plans to build the first Kalashnikov factory in South America are stirring fears Venezuela could start arming his leftist allies in the hemisphere with Russian assault rifles....


Venezuela is also buying 15 Russian helicopters for $200 million, and Chavez said last week that his government would buy 24 Russian-made Sukhoi fighter jets.

McCormack said Washington will ask the Russians to reconsider the deals.

If he's only making 20-30,000 AKs a year,I'd guess that at least the first 5 years production will go to self-defence, then to weapons replacement. It doesn't sound like an export operation. The AK103 IS a better infantry weapon than the FN-FAL and I can understand his military's desire to replace this ageing infantry weapon.

As for the Russian helicopters & jets... Are these to replace the American ones he can't get parts for anymore? I recall that Chavez was vilified for getting rid of his F-16s a while ago.

The US position kind of reminds me of Captain Edmund Blackadder in 1917 describing the British Army He'd Joined:

"...back in the old days when the prerequisite of a British battle was that the enemy should, under no circumstances, carry guns... Even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight most were two feet tall and armed with dried grass."

(The battle of Mboto Gorge)
"...Ten thousand Watutsi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves. After the battle, instead of taking prisoners, we simply made a huge fruit salad. When I joined up, I never imagined anything as awful as this war (WWI). Fifteen years of military experience perfecting the art of ordering a pink gin and saying 'do you do it doggy-doggy?' in Swahili, then suddenly four and a half million heavily armed Germans hove into view. It was a shock, I can tell you."

After all, if the US has to go in and restore Venezuelan democracy by ousting a democratically elected leader, they don't want any of that "Resistance" stuff getting in the way, do they!

Mike.

Oh fuck. My second best laugh of the day. Thanks

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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If the USA had a puppet in office there we'd be giving them all they want til they didn't go w/ OUR policy then we'd just WHACK EM AND TRY TO INSTALL A NEW PUPPET GOVT.

When ALL of your friends inside and outside of a country express their desire to be invaded to get rid of Chavez... it makes you wonder. When you talk to people from a country and they PREFER when they had a totalitarian dictator to the quack they have now... it makes you wonder. When Chavez villifies some of his best customers and raises cries of "power to the workers, to the poor" it makes you wonder. When a "democratically" elected president nationalizes many major companies and replaces the people who built these companies with his own, mildly retarded cronies... it makes you wonder. When a president allows Chinese military access to his armies... it makes you wonder.

It doesn't take a puppet government to NOT be a fuckin' retard. Just wait.

"When a "democratically" elected president nationalizes many major companies and replaces the people who built these companies with his own, mildly retarded cronies">>>>>" Except for a few words is sounds like the Bush administration

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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Dude, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Surely you're not starting to believe all those "guns are dangerous" liberal gun-o-phobes! Guns are no more dangerous than bathtubs; just read the many informative threads here.

Surely you're not spinning, distracting, or otherwise trying to put words in someone's mouth so you can make some kind of "point", are you? Nah, YOU'd never do that!

If you don't think that Chavez's lunacy, military buildup, coziness with the Chinese, modifications to the constitution to keep himself in office, and extreme corruption are a problem... there's not much helping you. Good luck with your next "logical" deduction.

Except for a few words it sounds like the Bush administration. Am I repeating myself? LOL

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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Bill, Bill, Bill.... *sigh*

THE ISSUE isn't that he's making some guns. THE ISSUE is his continued push towards becoming a military dictator hell-bent on regional destabilization. It doesn't take any stretch of imagination at all to think that he'll be supplying his "revolutionary" friends in neighboring countries soon. This is just one more straw on the back. I didn't think I'd have to spell that out for you.

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The world is awash in weapons; we make a large chunk of them.

BULLSHIT BILL! Show me how many crackpot regimes are using our weapons versus how many are using the Chinese and former Soviet supplied weapons. Get real, man. Think N.Korea is dangerous? Who sells them their shit? Think Iran is dangerous? Who sells them their shit? Think Chavez is dangerous? Who sells them thier shit? Think Islamic extremism is dangerous? What kind of weapons are they shooting in the air while babbling anti-western crap? Come on.

But... you have your argument all planned out. Don't let me interrupt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/politics/30weapons.html?ex=1283054400&en=3cfe3f671fb60922&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss. But depends if they are are friends at the time or not I reckon

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[fasterfaller 0]

"So the AK is superior? on what fucking planet does this occur?"

On planet earth . The Ak is one of the most durable weapons ever built . They run and they run and they don't stop . I own full auto AK's and M-16's . With a M-16 as designed at the sixties along side a AK designed in the same era , the AK will run better and is less likely to fail during use . The M-16 will fail before a AK does . I have AK's that have survived 50-60,000 rounds and keep on going without cleaning , try that with a M-16 .

[kenneth21441 0]

its amazing how we the US sent troops there back in the early 90's to train there Airborne forces after the Airborne attempted to take over the government and now here we are buying arms not from the US but from our old enemy.

I am not saying that the AK is a worthless weapon its mostlikly the best in the world. Stick that thing in sand and fire it, stick it in water and fire it.

Take the M16 and do the same and hear a click if that.

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[kallend 1,623]

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>If you're giving them to nations that aren't threatening others, that's not a problem.
>If you're giving arms to crackpots that threaten others, that's a problem.

I agree. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the USA, countries/groups change their designation from "friendly" to "crackpot" pretty quickly. It wasn't so long ago that the Mujahideen and Saddam Hussein were our friends. A good argument for not arming other countries.

If we hadn't helped Sadaam, the Iranian crackpots would have taken over all those oil fields, and from there, threatened Saudi Arabia next. Imagine what world oil prices would be like with Iran in charge of most of the supply.

!

If we hadn't overthrown a democratically elected Iranian government in 1953 and installed in its stead a puppet hated by his own people, imagine what the situation in the middle east would now be like.

Imagine.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Trent 0]

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Either way, you called 'bullshit' to Billvons unqualified statement that the US provides a large part of the worlds arms trade. Its pretty clear that you were wrong.

Hahaha, all of you guys are deluding yourselves. You have TWO examples to use... stinger missiles and the contras... forget that those are pretty uncurrent and that we don't see many of those weapons doing much damage. We also don't see many Japanese or Taiwanese F-16's at the muzzle of the jihad or the genocides in Africa. No... those conflicts are reserved for the RPG, AK, and the machete. If you guys want to insist that the US is contributing to global unrest with it's arms deals MORE than the manufacturers of the actual weapons being used all over the world... go ahead.

It's really amazing that people will argue against the obvious. It's okay though... whatever makes the US look bad must be true because you all say so.

Go ahead, tell us how the AK is NOT the most prolific weapon in the hands of bad guys worldwide... then tell us how it's the US's fault that there are guns everywhere.

Oh, hello again!

[sfc 0]

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Either way, you called 'bullshit' to Billvons unqualified statement that the US provides a large part of the worlds arms trade. Its pretty clear that you were wrong.

Hahaha, all of you guys are deluding yourselves. You have TWO examples to use... stinger missiles and the contras... forget that those are pretty uncurrent and that we don't see many of those weapons doing much damage.

How about bullets are they outdated?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5081360.stm


Look at the end of the page, the USA exports more bullets than the next five largest exporters combined. Even though some contries did not factor in this graph it is still evident that the USA is very heavily involved in a large part of the worlds small arms trade.

Just like oil it is all about money, we make money from selling guns and bullets, too bad if some of them are used to kill us, well then we just have to sell more to kill the folks we sold them to in the first place.
At least it is good for business

[miked10270 0]

I think that AKARUNAWAY probably hit the nail on the head with his link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/politics/30weapons.html?ex=1283054400&en=3cfe3f671fb60922&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss.

In particular:

"The United States once again dominated global weapons sales, signing deals worth $12.4 billion in 2004, or 33.5 percent of all contracts worldwide. But that was down from $15.1 billion in 2003."

Think of the armaments industry workers! We're losing sales guys!! If these factories close, then we'll have to import weapons for our own military!!!

As for the AK Vs AR debate, I thought that had been settled long ago.

The AR (M-16, etc...) is the lighter (in every respect) and more accurate weapon. The better choice IF you have a well trained and disciplined army... A professional army with troops who are certain to maintain their weapons.

However...

The AK can stand far more abuse and lack of care. It is easier to operate with minimal training. The better choice if you are raising an "Army" by handing out green fatigues and a gun. The better choice for conscripts and militias.

In effect, it is far quicker and cheaper to produce a soldier capable of using an AK than it takes or costs to produce a soldier capable of using an AR.

The resulting AK fire may not be as accurate, but rest assured there will be a hell of a lot of it!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[jakee 1,254]

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If you guys want to insist that the US is contributing to global unrest with it's arms deals MORE than the manufacturers of the actual weapons being used all over the world... go ahead.

Did ya even read what I posted?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?