9-11 loose change

[Samurai136 0]

So what you're telling us is that the Gnomes of Zurich orchestrated 9/11 for the end purpose of lowering the wage of Americans and flooding the country with illegal residents/ cheap labor?

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Michele 1]

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I certainly believe planes hit the twin towers. Penn I am not so sure, nor the Pentagon. While I have seen pictures with obscure pieces of airplanes at the Pentagon crash site, nothing you would think (like wings?) The hole seems small for the plane, and the video that has been released leaves MUCH to be desired. I would really like to see the hotel video or Highway dept video, but I doubt that will happen. CG is getting such that if they delay it a few more years, they could probably have a good one done by then

I appreciate the response.

So what do you think happened at the Pentagon? honestly, for me, the only question I have is the Pennsylvania one...it might have been shot down, and perhaps saved an additional thousand lives or so. We're not going to know that for certain unless and until the government tells us, but I could understand making that decision...as horrific and terrible as it would be, I really can understand it.

But what do you think happened at the Pentagon? And do you think that two commercial airliners brought down the WTC towers, and building 7, or do you believe it was something else? And if so, what else?

You have passionate beliefs which are different from mine, and I am honestly trying to see it from your perspective. Thanks.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[cumplidor 0]

My perspective is that I don't buy what mass media pumps out. I watch little to no tv and read no newspapers. My news comes from the Internet. I read sites that some find disturbing, but they do have useful information.

This is my belief in a nutshell-
-I believe that our government meddles in regional affaris of numerous countries around the world. (We give weapons to these guys, cuz they will do business with us, the others don't trust us.. etc)
-I believe that back door deals go on all the time between big biz and the federal govt- this influences the previous item.
-I believe the fed would lie to all of us in a second, actively lies to us via mass media to steer us into thinking what they want us to think regarding domestic and foriegn affairs. This also helps to cover up illegal dealings mentioned in the above two items.

Based on those three items, that would then make just about anything possible on 9-11. One thing about truth is sometimes it isn't known until much later.
Most Germans had no idea that the Reishtag fire that enabled Hitler and the Nazis to sieze power was actually set by the Nazis...

[Amazon 7]

Did you write the script for Syriana?

[ViperPilot 0]

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I watch little to no tv and read no newspapers. My news comes from the Internet

As unreliable as news can be, the internet is by far the WORST source of them all. No editors, any joe blow can write whatever the hell he wants on the internet. Not so much in print media.

[Michele 1]

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This is my belief in a nutshell- [snip] - Based on those three items, that would then make just about anything possible on 9-11. One thing about truth is sometimes it isn't known until much later.

Agreed about how long it will take to get facts known.

Given that, you haven't answered my questions, though. I understand standing from a position of agnosticism (used here to mean unknowing, thus not having a conclusion about X or Y), but it seems that you do have a strong opinion as what you think happened to the WTC and the Pentagon. Given that no one knows for sure, since we weren't there...but those were the questions, not necessarily where you get your news from, or what you think big biz and the g'ment are doing (and those are indeed interesting topics, just maybe for their own threads; trying to prevent thread creep here...).

So, what do you believe about how/why the WTC came down, and what hit the Pentagon? Again, I know you weren't there...but you're arguing passionately for a position, or that at least "X" position can't be right...so I am really curious as to what position you do believe is right? And yes, I can read details (i.e. long posts don't bother me at all) so feel free to elaborate.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[skygeek 0]

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I watch little to no tv and read no newspapers. My news comes from the Internet

As unreliable as news can be, the internet is by far the WORST source of them all. No editors, any joe blow can write whatever the hell he wants on the internet. Not so much in print media.

Umm isn't that the point of freedon of the prress? Being able to say what you belive without a filter or censorship?

Welcome to the New World Order. Expect no Mercy.

[rushmc 18]

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>Then Goodyear should make Tires that last 300,000 miles . . .

They can; you would hate them. Friction causes traction, and friction works by actually leaving a little rubber behind. Goodyear could easily make a flexible steel tire (they did for the moon rover) that would work OK on dirt, and would give you very little traction on concrete or asphalt.

So instead they make tires people will actually buy.

>GE should make lightbulbs that last 1,000,000,000,000 hours.

Again, they can. I have one of them here. It's a 10 watt bulb; it cost $230. (Well, it lasts 200,000 hours; about 20 years.) Why aren't you buying them? Are you in on the conspiracy?

>Gilette should make a razors that lasts more than 3 weeks.

They last several years for me.

>People do weird things for $$.

And people like you do weird things to avoid spending $$, like buying cheap light bulbs that burn out really fast, or buying tires with traction that don't last the life of the car. Do you do it because you want to destroy the planet, or because you like to keep as much $$ as possible? Well, believe it or not, other people are like you.

Wow, you and I go back and forth and then I read your posts in this thread. I think I have agreed with everything you have posted here

There is hope for us yet!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Guest 1010]

dude, I can't believe you are posting even ... you know they can figure out who you are by your IP number, right ......

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[4201 0]

That's a little too much for me. Where did these guys get their facts? The internet? Half of the gov docs they showed, i could not even read them cause they were too small. I'm no pro Bush guy; but, that video smelt like some straight propaganda. Aliens landing in Roswell NM; I can believe that! This garbage? I mean common man; don't you know tricks are for kids.

[cumplidor 0]

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what do you believe about how/why the WTC came down, and what hit the Pentagon?

how/why the WTC came down? It came down via controlled demolition. All 3 WTC buildings fit the description. Why would they do it? That is a cloudy issue that would only come out with a proper investigation. The 911 commission had too many conflicts of interest, and was not an inquiry into what really happened. If you recall, the 'investigation' didn't start until almost 1 year of resisting an investigation. It seems an incredibly odd coincidence that on that particular morning ALL Air Defense stood down. Yeah, saying they screwed up and thought it was a drill sounds WAY too fishy...or convienient.

Again why? Well, mr Silverstien did profit quite handsomely from it. Demolished and cleaned up two asbestos filled buildings that he had just leased less than 2 months before? again, sounds way to fishy. Not to mention, fraudulent.

Other parties have profited as well.

The oil companies who got to get the pipeline contracts in Afgan, not to mention the cluster bomb mfgrs which were bombing runs were typically along the path of the pipeline.

The companies that are 'helping' install and maintain 'democracies' in Iraq and Afgan, not to mention all the other countries we have US forces and civilian contractors in.
(That would be the Hallibutrons, Bechtel Group, Fluor Corp. read here http://www.opensecrets.org/news/rebuilding_iraq/index.asp)

In regards to what could have happened to all those people on those flights, I dunno. If they are willing to kill 3000 people in the towers, then 300 or so people shouldn't be that much more of a problem. It is strange to note that the families of the towers victims have filed lawsuits in NY to get more information released about the attacks. They have been very vocal regarding foul play. The families of victims on the planes however have done the exact opposite and staying totally mum. I find that odd.

Anyway, the Pentagon? I see a few airplane parts in some pictures, but not wreckage that supports a 757 plane crash. Beyond that, I am not sure. Some explosion took place, no doubt. Visible. There is alot of unreleased video that could close the issue, they REFUSE to release.


slightly new tangent...
You know these 'Christians' we have leading our government would seem alot more like Christians if they would only act like them. (And I don't mean the Christians during the crusades...) You know, the turn the other cheek, love your enemies, type.

I thought only evil people had a need to kill and tourture people and stuff like that (or have it done). I DO NOT FAULT OUR TROOPS! I am a veteran of the Army and totally understand the position they are in. They take orders. To exist in the military, you follow orders, period. No questions. questions = problems on the battlefield = failed mission

If evil people run our government, then they would be capable of anything, wouldn't they? And people that follow orders get promoted, those that don't demoted. Since Washington is a cesspool of power, money and corruption, the most evil will bubble to the top.

Is it odd to you that our President's grand father Sen Prescott Bush was investigated (but exonerated) of collaborating with the enemy (Hitler's Germany)? They accused him of stuff like money laundering I believe. This was well after they had declared war on others and was a country to be concerned with.

Isn't it odd that our President's father was investigated (but exonerated) in the Iran Contra weapons deals?

Do you find it odd that MANY of the folks in our current administration were part of the administration during Iran-Contra?

It seems to me that some very strange things have been going on and it is easier to believe that the corrupion and evil is in udder control rather than individuals with strong morals and backbones.

It just seems to me that there are way too many negative things going on and not enough individuals demanding the truth.

[cumplidor 0]

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dude, I can't believe you are posting even ... you know they can figure out who you are by your IP number, right ......

I am well aware, but feel that risk in minimal compared to the need for the US population to wake the hell up.

This country was founded because a group of individuals felt they were getting a raw deal from the British Empire, and didn't want their lives dictated to them. After all, that was why they took the huge risk to come to the new world anyway right? To get away from the oppressive King? To be free. The vast majority of the population at that time supported the King however. But the PATRIOTS fought for the freedom for everyone, even the loyalists.

Every day more patriots step up and demand more accountability. The Dixie Chicks were some of the first. Charlie Sheen is one of the latest. google 'sheen 9-11' for one of the most visible 9-11 critics to date - but still not getting any real attention... hmmm.

[mnealtx 0]

I support the fact that you're going to need a LOT of countervailing proof to convince me that the 9/11 attacks were staged, especially since one of my coworkers WAS in the Pentagon the day of the attack.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[cumplidor 0]

I am not even going to attempt to convince you otherwise. I don't believe that is possible. Which is fine, I respect you and your belief.

The way the towers collapsed, just simply watching them fall, and the all too convient really wierd things (finding unscathed passport, positively id'ing 60+ orgainc bodies via DNA @ Pent - but titanium and steel plane being 'vaporized' to the point there is no signifigant wreckage, lack of a real investigation without conflicts of interests by those conducting the investigation, resistance of investigation by administration for almost 1 year, ease which we went to war after events and then quickly justified Iraq war, ease with which they id'ed attackers (like less than 48 hours?), the list could go on ad nauseum). It is just too many odd things, for my brain to not ask more questions.

[mnealtx 0]

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I am not even going to attempt to convince you otherwise. I don't believe that is possible. Which is fine, I respect you and your belief.

The way the towers collapsed, just simply watching them fall, and the all too convient really wierd things (finding unscathed passport, positively id'ing 60+ orgainc bodies via DNA @ Pent - but titanium and steel plane being 'vaporized' to the point there is no signifigant wreckage, lack of a real investigation without conflicts of interests by those conducting the investigation, resistance of investigation by administration for almost 1 year, ease which we went to war after events and then quickly justified Iraq war, ease with which they id'ed attackers (like less than 48 hours?), the list could go on ad nauseum). It is just too many odd things, for my brain to not ask more questions.

I fully respect your right to ask questions - I'm saying that there is a preponderance of evidence that you will have to disprove...that's all.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[cumplidor 0]

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I'm saying that there is a preponderance of evidence that you will have to disprove.

Quite the contrary, I believe the administration has much more to prove that it happened the way they say it did. Many answers that the administration has provided are questionable and it has answered some questions the way some get answered around here- selectively so as to not jepordize an individuals overall position. Questions get too tough, or I fail to bite on the 'less than cerebral' replies, then things simply get ignored.

But I suppose it is really a matter of perspective as to what happened, which leads us to having to come to ones own conclusions as to what happened, thus doing ones own investigation.

I am just trying to get more folks to demand more answers.

[skygeek 0]

I have a question.


What about all the firefighters and rescue personal that, on video , you can see talking about the explotions going off in the towers as low as the 8th floor BEFORE the building colapes?

Or the Witnesses that said a bomb went off in the basement of tower 1 near the time of the first impact?

Would you belive people that were there?


We teach them to take their patriotism at second-hand; to shout with the largest crowd without examining into the right or wrong of the matter--exactly as boys under monarchies are taught and have always been taught. We teach them to regard as traitors, and hold in aversion and contempt, such as do not shout with the crowd, and so here in our democracy we are cheering a thing which of all things is most foreign to it and out of place--the delivery of our political conscience into somebody else's keeping. This is patriotism on the Russian plan.
- Mark Twain, a Biography

Welcome to the New World Order. Expect no Mercy.

[cumplidor 0]

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What about all the firefighters and rescue personal that, on video , you can see talking about the explotions going off in the towers as low as the 8th floor BEFORE the building colapes?

Or the Witnesses that said a bomb went off in the basement of tower 1 near the time of the first impact?

That is one of those ignored points I was refering to-

[champu 1]

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Quite the contrary, I believe the administration has much more to prove that it happened the way they say it did. Many answers that the administration has provided are questionable and it has answered some questions the way some get answered around here- selectively so as to not jepordize an individuals overall position. Questions get too tough, or I fail to bite on the 'less than cerebral' replies, then things simply get ignored.

Well one of the problems I have when trying to refute arguments that the plane crashes weren't the reason the WTC towers collapsed, or that a 757 didn't crash into the pentagon, is that I'll put forth what I know about the construction of the particular buildings and planes in question, physics, and engineering. Then I'll explain that when I put together the multiple video angles I've seen of the towers, and the photos of the pentagon with what I've learned, I don't see a controlled demolition of the WTC or a global hawk/missile having crashed into the pentagon.

What I'm usually met with in return is "well the tower collapses looked like controlled demolitions to me" or "But what about the dozens of people near the pentagon that said what flew by sounded like a missile to them" or "If a 757 crashed into the pentagon, I know there'd be more debris."

And at that point I'm at a bit of a loss to go on. I'd say 50% not sure how to start my argument over again, and 50% apathy as to whether or not I ever convince them. So... congratulations, I guess that means you win.

[billvon 2,446]

>I have been a welder in a past life and the type of steel used and
>the thickness is simply not able to be overcome by collapsing floors.

Which is like saying "I skydive and I know that falling bombs simply cannot penetrate concrete - cause I've never seen it." The WTC was not designed to withstand the loads of half a million tons of concrete falling on it. When that overload was placed on it, it collapsed.

>this was enough force to simultaneously SHEAR OFF 2 foot tall steel I
> beams reinforced with and completely pulverize 3' floors of
>concrete?

Yes.

Let's look at the physics. The top 15 floors of the North Tower weighed about half a million tons. Normally that's dead weight, designed with (say) a 4 to 1 safety margin, accounting for wind loads, live floor loads etc. Once the fire weakened the structure, one floor collapsed. Let's say it fell 12 feet, crushing everything weak (furniture, non load bearing walls etc) until it contacted the concrete, decelerating in the final 6 inches. That's a load of 12 million pounds; 6 times what the structure was designed to withstand.

Now, you're a welder. What happens when a beam is loaded to 6 times its yield strength?

>Over and over again for 80+ floors?

Yep. Once that first floor goes, the upper mass retains some of its energy, and the next floor is overstressed even more.

>The 'shearing' & 'pulverising' process also takes time. It is simply
>more time than pure freefall allows for.

It wasn't freefall. It should have taken 8 seconds for that chunk of the north tower to hit the ground; it took over 9 by video records. Most of that extra second was likely taken up by the first floor below the collapsed floor yielding. After that, the force was so great that the floors below were pulverized instantly. We are talking forces 10 to 100 times greater than the structure was ever designed for.

>Bill you put serious words in my mouth. I did not say that, they
>obviously have vacines for most of those.

So it sounds like they'd rather cure people than treat them.

>My statemnet, is that they healed people, there would be no sick
> people, or put themselves out of work. Perhaps you support this way
> of doing business?

I do indeed. My wife is a doctor; she would love to not have to treat childhood leukemia. She wouldn't be out of a job, of course. Even if you cured every serious disease out there, 99% of her job (seeing kids with broken arms, runny noses and beads stuck in their ears) would continue.

Every once in a while a doctor discovers a cure or a vaccine for a serious disease. When he does that, he wins nobel prizes, makes millions (or even billions) of dollars for himself and his company, and becomes a hero to millions of people (and rightly so.) A bit of an incentive for even evil doctors, no?

>Huh? Which one would that be?

The company manufacturing the cure. Because if one company has the patent on the cure for lung cancer, they can name their price.

>It becomes my issue when I cannot find chewing gum anymore that
> doesn't contain aspartame or acesulfame K (both toxins)

Then you're not looking!
http://www.oryans.com/ciglgumallna.html
That search took 10 seconds.

>and I simply have a problem with corporations being allowed to push
>their addictive, unhealthy products onto ignorant people.

I prefer the freedom to choose for myself.

>Not to mention, Genetically Modified foods are becoming
> commonplace and are dangerous too. Most of our soybeans, corn
> and potatoes are now GM crops. I don't call that much of a choice...

??? You have complete choice. Plenty of stores offer organic foods. They are more expensive, but that's what freedom is all about. Making your choices and then paying for them.

>Wow, I don't think everyone is out to get me, and it is not the govt
> trying to poision us. (its the corporations) The govt is just allowing
> it, because . . . .

. . . because we life in a free country. They can do whatever they want (within limits of course.) So can you.

Do you really want the government to tell you you can't drink beer?

>I think trying to make evil, greedy corporations accountable for what
> they encourage us to do to ourselves, is actually very reasonable.

I think it is more reasonable to hold people accountable for what they do to themselves. The attitude you express above is why DZ's get sued by people who cut away at 50 feet, and is why car manufacturers get sued because a drunk driver plows into a parked car at 40mph.

We have been moving towards a culture of professional victims for some time now. "It's not my fault I'm fat! It's those evil greedy corporations." "I didn't kill that family of 5 by getting drunk and plowing into them! It was their van's lack of a rear airbag that the greedy, evil corporations were too cheap to put in." I think that's the wrong direction to go in, myself. You can disagree; heck, it's a free country (much to some people's dismay.)

[SpeedRacer 1]

billvon has just demonstrated a good example of a "Fisking"

Speed Racer
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[popsjumper 2]

I had to look it up...

yep, good stuff Fisker Bill!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nanook 1]

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What about all the firefighters and rescue personal that, on video , you can see talking about the explotions going off in the towers as low as the 8th floor BEFORE the building colapes

Explosions don't necessarily mean bombs going off.

Remember that the two main suporting structures are the outside walls of the building and the central core. The core started to collapse first , and the outer walls were pulled down with it. That's why you see a lot of "Explosive action" before the visible collapse started to happen

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Or the Witnesses that said a bomb went off in the basement of tower 1 near the time of the first impact?

Question here is, how near the time? There are express elevators the height of the building that expanding burning av-gas can rush down. especially if the elevators are above the impact point.

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Would you belive people that were there?

Yes I would. I beleive they saw explosions. I'm pretty sure none saw actual bombs before they went off though.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[cumplidor 0]

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What happens when a beam is loaded to 6 times its yield strength?

Well, that would depend on where the load occured versus the beam's support, and where that is located. Every horizontal beam had numerous supports from the vertical beams.

If fires were to have caused the structural damage as they would have us believe, then perhaps I could see a couple of floors collapsing, the force of the 1/2 mil tons being continually reduced with every floor it hits, due to the force 'shearing' huge I beams and 3+ feet of concrete. This downward force would eventually loose momentum to continue 'shearing' I beams and 3+ foot of concrete.

IE: The amount of force to 'shear' each floor would have to be the same or more for each and every floor, all the way down. But the amount of force available to 'shear' each floor is reducing with each floor collapsing, due to force being transferred to the floor below it. So it would seem impossible since the amount of available force is reducing with each floor...

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That's a load of 12 million pounds; 6 times what the structure was designed to withstand.

Thats only the first floor. The next floor will have less force due to laws of physics.

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>It becomes my issue when I cannot find chewing gum anymore that
> doesn't contain aspartame or acesulfame K (both toxins)

Then you're not looking!
http://www.oryans.com/ciglgumallna.html
That search took 10 seconds.

Thanks for finding that, I was really refering to the checkout line at any convience or grocery store. I know we can FIND these items that are not deadly to us, but how difficult?

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>My statemnet, is that they healed people, there would be no sick
> people, or put themselves out of work. Perhaps you support this way
> of doing business?

I do indeed. My wife is a doctor; she would love to not have to treat childhood leukemia. She wouldn't be out of a job, of course. Even if you cured every serious disease out there, 99% of her job (seeing kids with broken arms, runny noses and beads stuck in their ears) would continue.

I apologize, I meant the Medical Industry would prefer to treat rather than cure. I know Doctors myself who are incredibly caring individuals, but don't spend enough time researching homeopathic and holistic remedies. I admire anyone who is able to day in and day out see the vicitms of our societies evils.

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I think it is more reasonable to hold people accountable for what they do to themselves. The attitude you express above is why DZ's get sued by people who cut away at 50 feet, and is why car manufacturers get sued because a drunk driver plows into a parked car at 40mph.

There you go again, lumping my arguement in with idiototic arguements to attempt to minimize mine ... I certainly do not advocate people suing for stupidity. I do advocate lawsuits for criminal neglect, especially when a profit is being made from it.

If you see this as an attempt to be ir-responsible, please point that out eactly how you see that. I see it as exactly just the opposite, I am trying to get people to BE responsible and educate themselves rather than just buying into whatever the mass media spews.

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They can do whatever they want (within limits of course.) So can you.

So you endorse food manufacturers adding known carcinogens to their food? Do you also endorse high powered lobbists to buy off certain folks so they can allow them to add the carcinogens? Sure we all have choice about whether to buy them or not. But hell, what if you don't know it can hurt you, what happened to choice?

Your wife is a Dr. Do you or she disagree with the statement 'Aspartame is a harmful product?' If it is not harmful, then why do you say that? Cuz the FDA says it is okay? hmm. FDA didn't say it was okay for 16 years... Then within months after Reagan is elected, WHAM!- new FDA chief, and Aspartame is Approved! sound fishy to you? it should...

Has anyone heard of flouride? they add it to most municipal water supplies. It is highly toxic at higher levels. But they say it helps make stronger teeth and bones? Well, we should about have no cavities then (if you get city water) and no broken bones. hmm. Do you know where that flouride comes from? It is another industrial waste product that comes from scrubbing the inside of coal smokestacks. (DU is an industrial waste product too!) hmm. more industrial profits at our expense...

[SpeedRacer 1]

This "treat rather than cure" argument is one of the most persistent pieces of BS floating around out there.

what is the difference between "treating" and "curing"? If you say that the researchers want the disease to continue for life & never end, you're just plain wrong. Many diseases persist in spite of treatment because they are DIFFICULT to cure! Cancer can be cured by these treatments most of the time, but sometimes it can't. Cancer is a difficult disease because it is one of your own cells that are proliferating out of control. It's very difficult to get rid of just the cancerous cells without harming your healthy cells.

I did cancer research for many years. Believe me, scientists in this field are not "holding back" from finding cures. What we have now is the best we can come up with.

If you think scientific research for curing diseases is easy, I welcome you to go through the education & difficulty of doing what I & other scientists do.

And the argument that we're holding back from cures to preserve our livelihood is crap. If we found an instant, near-perfect cure for say, lung cancer we would not be out of a job. Hasn't it occurred to you that both the scientists & the organizations they work for would have the ability to move on to other projects??

Look at polio. They used to treat large numbers of polio victims by putting them in very expensivve iron lungs. All the money for the iron lungs & the expense of taking care of the polio victims was mostly wiped out when the polio vaccine was invented. Why didn't the Vast Corporate Conspiracy assassinate Dr. Salk?

Speed Racer
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