"Shoot to Wound"

[JohnRich 4]

News:

New York State Sen. David Paterson is pushing a bill that would require cops to shoot to wound, rather than using deadly force.

The bill also would create a new provision for second-degree manslaughter that would be reserved specifically for an officer who "uses more than the minimal amount necessary" to stop a crime suspect.

In a memo urging its passage, Paterson wrote: "There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objective."

Paterson (D-Harlem) wrote that a police officer, under his legislation, "would have to try to shoot a suspect in the arm or the leg."

Source: New York Daily News

[lawrocket 3]

How stupid is that? If a situation calls for the use of deadly force, use deadly force. Isit that hard to understand at its bare essential?

It's also a good way to cause collateral damage. "Aim for his leg?" Well, if you are a little left or right, you've just sent a round downrange towards whomever is in the background. It's why we "aim center mass." A little off in any direction will result in a hit. Trying that with a leg or arm will result in bad things, indeed.

This is a telling wuote: ""There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objective." (emphasis added).

Yeah, it may. It MAY accomplish the same thing. But in situations where it doesn't, well, there's trouble.

What's the next step? "Reports reveal that a number of police shootings resulted in death from damage to the femural artery. Our new policy will require officers to avoid at all costs the possibility of damaging the femoral artery. Therefore, all gunfire is to be directed toward the suspect's hands, for we do not wish to have this problem with the radial or subclavian arteries."

Hogwash.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,398]

there are certainly police agencies around the world who actively engage in shooting to wound and actively train that as well.

I don't think legislating it would be the right way to go about it. Assuming you would want to change towards that.

[rehmwa 2]

Cool, just like in the movies. Just shoot the gun out of his hands from 50 feet away, shooting from the hip, while riding a motorcyle, over cobblestones, at night, while eating sammich.

the asswipe has likely never even seen a gun of any type, let alone shot a handgun

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[miked10270 0]

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News:

New York State Sen. David Paterson has been watching far too many feckin' Hollywood Movies and thinks they're real! "

Maybe he would be better off getting funding for research into Star-Trek Phasers which the cops would then always use on "Stun".

Failing which... He should spend some time firing one of those Evil-Cop-Sidearms and see just how easy it is to shoot the bad guy's hands off!

No offence to all you regular shooters, but a sidearm is NOT a precision tool! Nor is a rifle on an erratically moving target!

A little LESS time on video games (where bullets travel instantaneously and with a flat trajectory) and a little more time learning at first hand what a REAL firearm can do is needed here.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[SkyDekker 1,398]

Like I said, the concept is certainly in place at various law enforcement agencies around the world. Nothing new there.

[miked10270 0]

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there are certainly police agencies around the world who actively engage in shooting to wound and actively train that as well.

There are? WHERE!!?

Even in the Gun-Hating UK, where EVERY cop who uses a firearm then has to face a court case (not an internal investigation, a full-blown court case), Cops are taught to shoot to kill. Actually, it's called "Shoot to Stop" but if lethal force IS used, then it's a given that the suspect will stay "Stopped".

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[speedy 0]

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There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objecive

Do anyone really disagree with this statement? I certainly don't.

And if a less extreme measure may not accomplish the same objective.... ask again, but nicely.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Scoop 0]

Crazy and not practical. If the time comes for you to shoot someone (god forbid) the adrenalin you would have in this type of scenario would make it near impossible to aim for the legs or arms. The body can only cope with gross motor skills in these situations, fine skills go out the window as anyone would know if ever been put in dangerous situation

If you have to shoot someone something has alread gone very very wring, so just do it

[SkyDekker 1,398]

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There are? WHERE!!?

I know for a fact it is the case in The Netherlands. It is my understanding that German police is trained similar as well.

[rehmwa 2]

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In a memo urging its passage, Paterson wrote: "There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objective."

I think the implication in his statement is that he's taking it as a given that a typical cop would choose to "terminate another's life" even when he could avoid it. This is extreme bias against a human being that chooses law enforcement for a career.

Typical of many people's "expect the worst of everybody you've never met" attitude.

Not only is the bill stupid in context, it's a complete waste of time. It's only value is in the PR this congressman will get from those constituents too stupid to realize the insult he's making on a certain group of people. In abstract, that's fine, but the cops I know are my neighbor, several skydivers. So when he assumes this law is needed, he's commenting on the character of these people, not some abstract faceless hypothetical cop that only lives in the imagination of a splintered left wing group.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[christelsabine 1]

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Crazy and not practical. If the time comes for you to shoot someone (god forbid) the adrenalin you would have in this type of scenario would make it near impossible to aim for the legs or arms. The body can only cope with gross motor skills in these situations, fine skills go out the window as anyone would know if ever been put in dangerous situation

If you have to shoot someone something has alread gone very very wring, so just do it

Scoopy, you are wrong. If adrenaline is taking over control over your well trained actions, you simply are in wrong job and should definately only keep a broom in your hands. (Perhaps to ride home on it)

German police as well as special forces are trained to "stop" with a shoot at first, in case of deadly danger for a victim, to place the lethal shoot immediately. Adrenaline never should have any influence on those actions. Though, I have to admit that for a simple police officer only dealing with speed racers or drunken teenies, adrenaline surely IS a point. But, they have to train permanently to keep cold blood in difficult situations.

You only should enjoy adrenaline in skydiving

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Scoop 0]

No doubt armed police have extensive training. But if you've ever tried even handcuffing an offender when your adrenaline is through the roof its very very difficult. Shoot the mass. Im sure even the best marksmen lose their edge in high stress situations which is why the likes of the SAS etc have constant training in high stress situations like 'the killing house' using live rounds.

Anyway, besides the point. Any action you take using a gun is classed as deadly force and as such you should have to justify the use of the said deadly force.

If minimum force will suffice, use less. Pepper spray, baton, dog.

Adrenaline is your friend, embrace it but be aware of what it does to you. I would say if you can shoot someone without even having your heartbeat raise you are in the wrong job, should consider becomming a hitman or something

[Darius11 12]

If you have ever been in a high stress satiation you know that is not possible unless you are a sniper many many yards away.

If a guy pulls a gun you wait to long to aim you get sent home in a coffin. If I was a cop and felt someone was going to attempt to kill me I would shoot them anywhere I could.


If this is the full description of what they are purposing it is truly stupid.


We should convict and punish accordingly the very few bad cops we have for there crimes. Not punish every one.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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If minimum force will suffice, use less. Pepper spray, baton, dog.

great idea, shoot the criminal's dog. That'll work

if you can't shoot the crook, what fun is it. shooting a baton or a dog just isn't as fun

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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German police as well as special forces are trained to "stop" with a shoot at first, in case of deadly danger for a victim, to place the lethal shoot immediately. Adrenaline never should have any influence on those actions.

Funny thing. German air force pilots must be trained to NOT shoot down hijacked airliners. They are simply to monitor the situation and report back to base: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/15/AR2006021501333.html. Since warning shots will only waste the taxpayer monies, and may even harm someone down on the ground, they are to be avoided as violative of German law …


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[JohnRich 4]

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Skydekker: I know for a fact it is the case in The Netherlands. It is my understanding that German police is trained similar as well.

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Christelsabine: German police as well as special forces are trained to "stop" with a shoot at first, in case of deadly danger for a victim, to place the lethal shoot immediately.

Well, well, there seems to be a disagreement between the two of you over whether lethal force is justified immediately in Germany to stop a dangerous suspect...

Which one of you is wrong?

---

Meanwhile, back on the U.S. side of the issue... Let's see, what would be the result of the implementation of this policy?

1) The cops will aim for the hands or legs and often miss, allowing the criminal to kill the police officer, because the criminal has no such limitations placed upon him, or;

2) The cops will ignore the rule and shoot for center mass, leading to them being put in prison for manslaughter for trying to protect their life from a violent criminal.

I wonder how many police recruits New York can find to do that difficult job under those circumstances?

For those of you who answered "great idea", would you be willing to be a police officer under this law?

[Andy9o8 2]

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..some abstract faceless hypothetical cop that only lives in the imagination of a splintered left wing group.

You mean like the Michigan Militia?
Oh, wait; that's a splintered RIGHT wing group. Completely different. Lawlessness only comes from the left.
Never mind.

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[christelsabine 1]

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Skydekker: I know for a fact it is the case in The Netherlands. It is my understanding that German police is trained similar as well.

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Christelsabine: German police as well as special forces are trained to "stop" with a shoot at first, in case of deadly danger for a victim, to place the lethal shoot immediately.

Well, well, there seems to be a disagreement between the two of you over whether lethal force is justified immediately in Germany to stop a dangerous suspect...

Which one of you is wrong?

Each one is correct, JR. There are 2 different situations, well enough explained to be understood. You know, in many cases there is more than just one option.

To kill a simple street gangsta by shooting in his head after he stole an old ladies' wallet is a little harsh, or not? To immediately do a lethal shoot into the head of a psycho holding a (hand) gun to the head of a kid is recommended, right?

See, JR, this is called the difference. Our police staff is trained to quickly decide on more than ONE solution of a difficult situation. But that's just our forces. We do not train killers.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[christelsabine 1]

....German air force pilots must be trained to NOT shoot down hijacked airliners. They are simply to monitor the situation and report back to base: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/15/AR2006021501333.html. Since warning shots will only waste the taxpayer monies, and may even harm someone down on the ground, they are to be avoided as violative of German law …

[JohnRich 4]

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To kill a simple street gangsta by shooting in his head after he stole an old ladies' wallet is a little harsh, or not? See, JR, this is called the difference. Our police staff is trained to quickly decide on more than ONE solution of a difficult situation. But that's just our forces. We do not train killers.

So you think that American police shoot suspects for minor crimes, use their guns are cure-all's for every situation, and are trained executioners. Okaaaay...

It's always fun to watch you destroy your own credibility. Thank you for the entertainment.

[JohnRich 4]

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....German air force pilots must be trained to NOT shoot down hijacked airliners.

You are right. This is a very new law. Personally, I would
like to see it changed. But, as we Germans try hard to avoid violence... I do not accept nor do I understand that law. For me it's plain BS.

[christelsabine 1]

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To kill a simple street gangsta by shooting in his head after he stole an old ladies' wallet is a little harsh, or not? See, JR, this is called the difference. Our police staff is trained to quickly decide on more than ONE solution of a difficult situation. But that's just our forces. We do not train killers.

So you think that American police shoot suspects for minor crimes, use their guns are cure-all's for every situation, and are trained executioners. Okaaaay...

OH, JR, dear! You and your gallopping phantasy.... I was not talking about you(r country), ya know... But now, as you said it, it's worth to spend another second of thinking about it.

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It's always fun to watch you destroy your own credibility. Thank you for the entertainment.

Nice to see you're back, Johnny!

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[lawrocket 3]

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There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objecive

Do anyone really disagree with this statement? I certainly don't.

And if a less extreme measure may not accomplish the same objective.... ask again, but nicely.

No, I don't disagree with the entirety of the statement. However, I disagree with part of it - the part about "There is no justification." Wrong. I disagree. Wholeheartedly. In a situation where you honestly and reasonably believe that you may be killed, to kill someone is, in my opinion, justifiable.

Ooops! It turned out that the guy had an extremely realistic toy gun. Well, tough noogies. Was it reasonable to think the guy was packing real heat? If so, did you honestly believe you were about to be attacked with deadly force? Well, then, use deadly force.

If someone brings a gun into the mix, you better not have a mere billy club. You better be able to defend yourself.

Again, I'll repeat, if a situation calls for deadly force, then deadly force should be authorized. Cops shouldn't be shooting people who don't have a weapon or pose a reasonable threat. Then the shooting is not justifiable. BUT - if someone is threatening someone else with death or great bodily harm, then deadly force should be used.

Hopefuly, the perp will live. But a situation will get worse if a cop is using a pistol to try to shoot a small point target that is actively moving.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,881]

> . . .and are trained executioners.

Uh, they are. The targets they use during training aren't silhouettes of koala bears, they are of people. They are trained to kill. That's what the poll is about, no?