GPRS Cell Phones on Jump Planes

[riggerrob 561]

Trivia.
Different countries have different regulations.
For example, the FAA dumps all over anyone using a cell phone on American registered aircraft. On the other hand, Transport Canada routinely publishes telephone numbers of control towers and encourages pilots to carry cell phones and plan on phoning the nearest control tower when their certified radios quit.
Also, I routinely use my cell phone to call the Pitt Meadows control tower when I drive the fuel truck around the airport. Pitt Meadows control tower has never complained about me phoning them.

[LouDiamond 1]

I happend to find an article on this exact subject in todays washigton post titled : FAA commisions safety study of in air cell phones. I'll put in some blurbs of interest.

Question posed by the study: Do wireless telecom devices on commercial A/C interfere with Nav equip?

study to be conducted by non profit group RTCA on effects of laptops,cells and handhelds.

Experts say there is no proof that wireless devices interfere with nav systems.

there's potential of interference from these devices, but no one has ever been able to cooborate that when you turn an electrical gizmo on, it will cause an airplane failure.

group met for the first time last month and will meet again on 22-24 July at RTCA Hqs. Study to be completed by oct 2005.

Study in 2000 found cell phone use at high altitude caused blocked or dropped calls on the ground due to signals being spread accross several base stations.

players inthe study: execs from ther airlines,A/C manufacturers, and makers of wireless devices. Reps from cell phone co. such as Verizon are also participating.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Interestingly, there was never a similar regulation passed concerning PCS phones. No doubt just a loophole.

Correct. The FCC's airborne cellphone prohibition is in Part 22, which is specific to 800 MHz cellular service; there is no corresponding rule in Part 24, which governs PCS. (IIRC) I presume the same issues apply.

I am SUCH a geek.

_Am

I can't remember the stats of GSM - but would that band be covered as well in part 22?

I will mention that I've been told that TDMA doesn't work in the midwest at 9000AGL

I am curious - how do they handle cell phone usage from those on the Skydeck at the top of the Sears Tower?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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You always will. My PCS phone makes my earphones click whenever it checks in with the tower or right before it rings.

And that's what I call communication interference. It must be turned off.

And I have found my GSM phone to cause more interferance on electronic devices in my household to be more prevelant than my TDMA phones ever did. There is a constant click when you place it near a speaker, and a buzz a few seconds before the call hits the phone.

Also to note - the 900mhz cordless phone I have emits a constant beep near any speakers in my place, but my 2.4g router and house phone do not.

Outside of my watch and Cyrpes, just about any electical device I have will be turned off on the plane. Why would I even want to push the issue to prove a point?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[diverdriver 5]

I just flew a trip and had a Nextel phone left on. I heard a double click just after takeoff and then nothing. I thought maybe they had just turned it off or something. But then on short final at about 200 feet (right where we might be told to go around for any reason) the clicking in my headset just went nuts! I've never heard more interference than I did on that flight this past week. Seems the Nextel phones are nasty on the repeater. Anyway, I was none too pleased and let the offender have an earful.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[riddler 0]

I am really tempted to invent a device that signals cell phones to turn off in certain venues. You could set one of these up at movie theaters, plays, airplanes, etc. When the cell phone got within range, it automatically stops transmitting wirelessly (and hopefully also stops beeping).

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[LouDiamond 1]

Save your time and energy. there already is a device that will eliminate cell phone, pagers etc from receiving signal. It is aimed at movie theatres and "zones" where that type of traffic is not wanted,

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[quade 3]

Actually, in some countries (thank god not the U.S.) cell phone jammers are legal and in use at restaurants and theatres.

Fortunately, in the U.S. cooler heads have prevailed and jammers are illegal. However, any facility that really wanted to make themselves "CellPhoneProof" in the design and construction phase could easily do so for just a few bucks.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nightjumps 1]

Wouldn't it be better to do gear checks on your fellow skydivers and focus on the dive on the ride to altitude and leave surfing the net to the office?

[PilotMike 0]

Next time you get in your jump plane, look at the compass. It is required to have a deviation card on/near it. This shows a correction based on 'magnetic deviation' which is the result of local magnetic fields produced by metals and electrical systems in the aircraft.

This card is calibrated without anybody elses' electrical systems onboard, let alone running. You can also try putting electrical devices next to the compass and see what it does. I know it's only the compass but when the airline says 'interfere with navigational equipment' they aren't lying. A compass off by a few degrees won't crash an airplane but if it can be avoided, I say avoid it...

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Benefitting from the 'free capture of verticality.'

[lazyfrog 0]

in switz we sometimes use them in flight to get info about weather down on the groud or other stuff during special jumps... knock on wood, never affect our plane... Pilatus Porter... Swiss Plane... ;-)

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Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[billvon 2,462]

>This card is calibrated without anybody elses' electrical systems
>onboard, let alone running.

>A compass off by a few degrees won't crash an airplane but if it can
>be avoided, I say avoid it...

While this is true, a cellphone generates almost zero DC magnetic interference (which is what compasses care about) compared to motors, which operate via magnetic fields. So if you have a motor in your camera you are at greater risk using it than a cellphone, at least in terms of magnetic deviation.

[billvon 2,462]

Update on the issue from cellular-news.com:

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America's Continental Airlines has followed the lead set by American Airlines last month and has also announced a policy revision allowing customers to use their cellular telephones sooner after an aircraft lands at its destination. Under the new policy effective cellular phone use is permitted after landing when advised by the flight attendants. Previously, phone use was restricted until the aircraft door opened at the arrival gate.

"Many of our customers will find it beneficial to take advantage of a few extra minutes of 'talk time' as their aircraft taxis from the runway to the gate," said a Continental spokesperson

[diverdriver 5]

Has anyone considered the FAR that requires passengers to listen and comply with crewmember instructions? How are they going to be able to hear a FAs calls to evacuate when they have a damn plug in their ear and are gabbing away? You think all the other people leaving in a rush will clue them in? It won't. I've seen it. People will just sit there like a lump and become a hazard to the people around them. This is a bad move by the airline industry.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[LouDiamond 1]

No matter what you do, Darwin will always find a way to find a few canidates. Do you honestly think everyone listens to the FAs when they go through the emergency procedures? What next, no magazines or reading materials out while the FA are talking? People talking on cell phones after landing aren't any more of a hazard than the plane full of idiots who stand up in the aisle before the door is even open.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[diverdriver 5]

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No matter what you do, Darwin will always find a way to find a few canidates. Do you honestly think everyone listens to the FAs when they go through the emergency procedures? What next, no magazines or reading materials out while the FA are talking? People talking on cell phones after landing aren't any more of a hazard than the plane full of idiots who stand up in the aisle before the door is even open.

They are a hazard to themselves and when they get hurt they sue my airline for their stupidity and stupid jurors (not a true jury of their peers....that would mean airline personel would have to be on it) award millions in damages and the big evil airline companies pass the burden onto concessionary contracts to the employees. Thanks alot.

Did you know that every once in awhile an airplane loses its brakes and runs into the terminal? Yah, there's a reason why you aren't supposed to get up until the seatbelt sign is off. Seen it.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[LouDiamond 1]

I think your taking this example a little out on the deep end. People are sueing everyday over stupid shit so even if the moron had been listening to the FA what's to stop his family from sueing the airline because he knew he was about to die and didn't call on his cell phone because it was prohibited? I know that sounds far fetched but it's really pretty grounded in reality. Obviously, the use of cell phones while on the ground has passed whatever safety measures the airlines feels are important. It's all about the dollar, if Airline X allows cell use but airline Y doesn't, who do you think is going to see an increase in sales? It's all a gimmick and really has nothing to do with cell phone use and intereference with avionics since the plane is still on the ground and not even on taxi more than likely.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[diverdriver 5]

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It's all a gimmick and really has nothing to do with cell phone use and intereference with avionics since the plane is still on the ground and not even on taxi more than likely.

I'm telling you that it DOES interfere with communication! Man, how many times do I have to post that? I hear clicking in my headset when a cell phone is on. I hope that communication they are trying to tell me isn't that I need to avoid a large object coming at me. I don't care what lab tests they think they've done. I'm telling you what happens on the line in real life. This is a bad idea and will jeapordize people's lives.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[LouDiamond 1]

I get it and I have no doubt that there may be some interference but the Airline right now is using this as a seat seller. So that means someone up in the food chain has decided to allow it to happen or maybe they don't have any reported cases of interference from their pilots so they feel there is no safety issue at all.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[spedbus 0]

actually the way most mountainous cell tower arrangements are made is that the antenna array is set up near the peak of the mountain and the footprint (range of communicability) is therefore the entirety of the mountain itself as well as much of the surrounding areas at lower altitudes.

You'll lose speed, but keep altitude. It will look like you have a choice, speed or height, but either way you're still gonna nose-dive into the ground.
-Chuck Palahniuk

[AndyMan 7]

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I'm telling you that it DOES interfere with communication!

A very interesting article, I found on slashdot.

http://search.nap.edu/issues/19.2/strauss.htm

"Unlike most articles on the subject, this one neither pooh-poohs the risks ('We have estimated that reported events are occurring at a rate of about 15 and perhaps as many as 25 per year') nor exaggerates them ('RF interference from consumer electronics is unlikely to have figured in more than a few percent of commercial air accidents, if any at all, during the past 10 years.'). Instead, it presents a sensible plan for dealing with the risks that will accompany the inevitable expansion of the range of electronic devices passengers will use in flight, including cell phones and wireless computer networking."

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[nigel99 151]

The major issue that the UK has with phones on an aircraft is that the power control on your phone cranks up the power to max as signal is lost - on GSM this can be upto 8watts on an 800Mhz phone. Added to the number of phones impacts the collective interference in a plane. It amuses me when I fly that people don't "use" their phones but they do leave them on! If it is not off you may as well use it.

And if you're interested just watch for a 1/5th of a second flicker on the onboard screens next time you fly in Europe - when a person hasn't switched off their phone you can usually see the interference on the nearest monitor.

(no comment on USA - but I'm an RF engineer in the UK so I know this market - although the physics is the same all over the world).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I love the kinda discussions we get through here - few other web sites can have such varied topics.

[BIGUN 1,095]

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The problem is that some times cell phones can impact systems or communications with their repeater and a lot of time they don't. When the conditions are right they can. Many will say that the wiring is shielded. But what if the shielding is chafed? Wire chafing has been a problem at some point on any aircraft. Any aircraft has issues while they age. You willing to bet your life on it not happening on this flight? Turn your cell phone off. It's the law.

I do a lot of business traveling... Coolest trick I've ever seen: Doors close, flight attendant comes on the PA and politely requests everyone turn off their cell phones. About 8 seconds later, she comes back on and says, "Our on-board computer tells us there's still 7 cell phones in the "On" position, please check your phones so we can back from the gate."

I was sitting in the back of the plane and it was like watching a dumpster diving contest while everyone was diving for their cell phones to make sure they weren't the culprit.

I was crackin up.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[cpoxon 0]

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I know using a cell phone on a commercial plane can effect instruments/communications.

Not for much longer?

Emirates to allow in-air mobile use from January 2007

http://www.aeromobile.net/

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live