What I hate about the skydive community

[freethefly 6]

I am posting this to vent what is eating my soul. I am, also, posting this to vent my disgust in the skydiving community. I love jumping, yet, I do not care for a majority of people I have met in the nine years that I have been doing this. The egos of some is enough to make a vulture spew its gut on what is obviously an egotistic endevour. I know that I am going to get slammed for posting this and speaking what I feel. Yet, I do not give a flat out fuck what anyone thinks of me. I am heading back to the motorcycle clubs but will continue jumping regardless what people think of me. I have tried very hard to fit in. Yet, I feel that I am not very welcomed. I have met some very fine people and I do think the world of them and would give my life to protect those whom I consider to be my brothers and sisters, much like in the organizations that I rode in. What brought me to this point is what happened to Shayna and the poisonous puss that was spewed by so many including myself. When I rode with colors, we stood by each other and stood up for each other, No matter how wrong they were in what they may have done. That is not something that I have seen in this sport. The friends that I have lost in this sport were drug through the mud after their death. In the biker community that does not fucking happen. Say something bad about a bro or sister and your ass is chain whipped for degrading who is of your own kind. Unfuckingthinkable. What pisses me off is that I also drug Shayna and Rick through the mud. And, it is not just them. I have heard so much crap about other jumpers, I wonder if there really is a brotherhood in this sport or is it just the sport of one upmanship that drives it. The friends that I do have, I would take a bullet to protect. The same as when I rode in the clubs. If you are not willing to take a bullet, you do not belong. If you are wondering who the fuck I am, my name is Mark "Norton" Hamm 1%. I also post under the screen name " Flyingloom" for my embroidery business, which has gotten no support in this community. I have been jumping at Freefall Express in Mt. Vernon, Mo. where there are some real fine folks.Yet, I feel that I can no longer jump there as they have not supported my business and I no longer will support theirs. My money will be better spent next door. There are two dropzones at this location and there is friction between the two. What a load of crap. When I was in the organizations we fought for sometime over a bar in East St. Louis as being our turf. We ended that shit because that is what it was, shit. I watched a bro of mine take a round that some asswipe fired through a window. For what? A fucking waterhole. What abunch of crap. Our war ended when it was determined that we were stronger when we stood up for each other. Whether you were a Saddle Tramp or a Road Saint, an El Forrestero or an Outlaw it made no diff what MC you rode with, we were all the same. Now, in the St. Louis area all clubs gather to ride for what it is, a brotherhood. Leave your crap at the door or get your ass kicked and head stoved in. I am not seeing this in this community. Say I am wrong and blind but I have thought long and hard on what I should do to ease my own mind. I have spent the last few days contemplating suicide again. Not just over this but over what my life has become. I am sick and wish most of the time that it would all just end. I need to be in the company of people who actually care for one another. My bros in St. Louis have been contacting me to come back up and ride and enjoy the good times on the road. When I first learned of the HIV in me my bros and sisters were there. In this community I feel shunned by the people who know of my illness. This adds greatly to my depression and I can no longer handle what is eating me up inside. If I continue holding it all in I am going to eat fucking lead. I am not just mad at the skydive community but what has happened to the country I love. I am sick of all the fake patriotism that is so abundant in this country. I am sick and tired of all the crap that our government spews about how they are here when you are in a time of need. BULLSHIT. I see the same crap spewed here at speakers corner and other public boards around the net. What has become of compassion and love. Was it ever here in this country or any country for that matter. Has it ever actually been in the heart of the human race or is it just words that people speak to give themselves a sense of worth. I do not know and I doubt anyone knows. What I do know is that I am not feeling it. I have not felt it in quite awhile. When I rode, it was all around. Ever see bikers hug each other? It happens. We have the sense of belonging and care enough to stand up and show that there is love and compassion. In that world I felt true brotherhood. I do not feel that here. I have been awake for three days. No sleep. I do this constantly. I cannot sleep. I fear and loathe the nightmares and see only my end. When I sleep, I dream of my death. I need a break from what is obviously a troubled mind. I have so much baggage that I carry and I am so alone that suicide does seem to be the only way to end pain. I fully realize that I induced this malfunction in my life. Yet, I still refuse to let go of the toggles and prefer to fight it to the ground. I have very little idea why I do this. I have survived so much that giving up at this point would just be throwing the fight and letting my demons win. There is more than the first reasons that I stated in the beginning of this for why I am writing this. To get into that would take a team of psycologist to decipher. I am seeing a therapist for my depression. I am not sure what good it is doing as I am sitting here writing this. I also fully realize that this will most likely put me further out from the skydive community. Yet, I do not care. I have never cared what people thought of me and will not start now. To worry what others may think is pointless as it has no real bearing on ones life in general. Putting my real name in this will also, I realize, fully, will open me up to ridicule and suspiscion. Yet I no longer seem to care as I have lost all sense of that ego driven motor that makes one want to be seen as the rock of gibralter. I have taken a lot of crap from some on this board for being on disabilty. Hell I am trying hard to get off of it. I have recently been re-established on Medicare to combat AIDS and was told that leaving SSI I will lose my health coverage. And Medicare is NOT free. The Feds take $170.00 a month from my SSI to cover it. I just got a $47.00 increase in SSI. I do not get it as it is applied to the Medicare. Most jobs that I have looked into do not have the healthcare benefit that I need in order to fight AIDS. Medicare is no better. 3 months ago I weighed almost 170lbs. I am now at 140lbs. I do not eat but a few times a week. I have no appitite. Smoking pot kept my weight up but I have not smoked in quite awhile. But who really cares? I have not met many who does. For all the talk of compassion in this country, one would be hard pressed to actually find someone who does give a shit about others. Hell, who am I to talk. Before I was diagnosed, I made fun of anyone with AIDS, I am an asshole for doing that. And it is my own fault for contracting this. I did drugs and slept with an unusually high number of women. Over 800 was the count in a book I kept. That is no shit. I have been to every state but 4 and had my way with women in them all. My own fault. So, now where am I? Why am I writing this? And why would anyone post such a discription of theirself on a board for all to see and ridicule? Mainly, I needed to get this off of my mind as it is a cancer and it hurts a lot to be alone with it. I most likely will not return to this site. I most likely will return to St. Louis and the world that I know more than anything. I wish you all well. Goodbye

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[waltappel 1]

I have no clue where to start, but here goes.

Do not blame yourself for contracting HIV. Viruses don't give a flying fuck about who's "fault' anything is. Blame is irrelevant with disease, unless it is somehow intentionally inflicted. Blaming yourself will only take you further down--don't do it.

You spoke of warring biker factions. You are at war with yourself. That is a war you cannot win.

Another war you cannot win is one in which you expect others to cormform to your expectations of them and somehow feel that they are inferior or wrong if they do not meet those expectations. It is unfair of you to expect people to be like you or to think like you. One of the most precious things in life is freedom of choice--the freedom to influence your own path in life by the choices you make. There are some basic values of human decency that you feel those around you have violated, but who are you to judge them? We live in a world where it is very difficult for most people to do more than look out for themselves and their very closest loved ones. In this world, trust and love and a real connection between people is something to be earned and cherished. It does not come from your mode of transportation or the club you are a member of or the colors you wear. It develops over time, one-on-one.

What you speak of in the biker community has only rarely existed in the skydiving community.

Despite how many people feel and talk about it, the bottom line is that for nearly all who skydive, it is a hobby. Not a lifestyle, not a brotherhood and sisterhood, it is a hobby. That is where skydiving fits into their lives and where you, as a participant in the same hobby fit into theirs.

That is not wrong on anybody's part. That is a choice. Others have made their choices and you have made yours and you are being unduly harsh on the rest of the skydiving community for not seeing life through your eyes. That is something that is incredibly difficult to do and can take many years. Others' failure to see the world through your eyes does not make them bad people. We are just as human as you are.

That being said, I feel for you and the horrible blow that life has dealt you. I hope you are able to forgive yourself and the people around you for that and be at peace with yourself.

Walt

[Skyrad 0]

Eight years and you still think of Skydivers as a 'brotherhood'? I thought most people got out of that ideas in the first couple of years. We jump together and thats great, there are some people that become like family but generaly there is a superficial comradery at best. The Skydiving world is made up of members of the larger world and as such it is itself a microcosm of society at large. There are Skydivers who are great people and skydivers who are total arseholes. Some who are honourable and some who will steel your sunnies while you are doing a jump then swear blind they haven't seen them as you buy them a drink at the bar after the beer lights gone on.
I don't suppose that the biker world is any different dispite your belife to the contary.
Stay happy, stay safe. Good luck.

J

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rwieder 0]

Hell of a rant by the way. Sounds like your just really pissed at the world, not just the skydiving community. I'm not going to say the skydiving community isn't cliquish, because it is. But this is not your issue. Deal with it.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[RhondaLea 3]

I'm sorry, I'm just sorry. Don't take that as pity, because it's not.

Try to remember that there are a lot of people in the world who are even more isolated than you feel right now. And take some comfort that even if you haven't found the love you expected from the skydiving community, at least you found it elsewhere.

That makes you a lot luckier than most.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Mike111 0]

Very well said Walt

[UntamedDOG 0]

Quote

I did drugs and slept with an unusually high number of women. Over 800 was the count in a book I kept. That is no shit.

Oh, I really feel sorry for you now after reading that. I too am depressed, because I’ve only slept with 400 women. These low fuck numbers never stop hurting. Dude, at least you had fun getting HIV. Some people contracted the virus through no fault of their own. Imagine what its like for them. AIDS isn’t the death sentence that it used to be either. Just take your medication like a good boy.

You have lived a fast life and you are just now realizing the consequences. Skydiving is only as fun as the people you share it with. I am always trying out new DZ’s because I often grow tired of dealing with the same assholes every weekend. It keeps the sport fresh when you visit different locations.

The biker gang lifestyle that you speak of sounds pretty scary. You are never free when you belong to a gang. At least skydivers aren’t killing each other over a dropzone.

I know people tend to get depressed this time of year so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and just write this post off as written by someone who is feeling depressed. Dude, lighten up.

UntamedDOG

[markd_nscr986 0]

No ridicule here...........

Way back when........skydiving WAS more of a brotherhood........there were fewer of us around,alot were ex military,and we stuck together.There are about 8 or 10 of the old group that I havent seen for years,but if they were in a jam,I would help them out......likewise,I feel I could count on them to do the same for me......

I dont know you or how the HIV was contracted(and frankly,it's none of my business) but some lifestyles/behaviours carry large risks with them as you know all too well...........people that ignore or minimize the risks be it sexual behaviour,BASE jumping,motorcycling,skydiving,drinking and driving etc.tend to have it come back and bite them in the ass in a big way.......

I hope you dont think of your HIV as a death sentence,it doesnt necessarily have to be.........people have beat it...........

Hang in there...........

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[namgrunt 0]

I will not judge another man for what is in his heart.

but we all judge someone for there actions.

do good.be good to another..and you will be treated as you act..

sometimes we are our own worst enemy

I ask only to be judged by how I treat outhers.

the skydiving community is great but made up of different people with different histories.

treat everyone with respect..kindness..concurn and that is how you will be treated.
this aint no biker gang..dude


..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[hongkongluna 0]

Hey Bro,
Hope you're feeling a bit better since you posted this. Sometimes thats all it takes, getting it out. Can i make a suggestion? Go volunteer dude. Some people with endstage AIDS cant breathe! You can fly !

I know that when i'm stuck in my own shit, helping somebody gets me right out of it. Look up AIDS hospices & go help out. Write a gratitude list every day and you'll get out of this funk & be able to live & let live.

feel better.

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[beowulf 1]

Try to focus on the things you like rather then the things you dislike. That really applies to everything in life. The bad things are always there. It's the good things that make everything tolerable. If you can't see the good things, then you will never be happy. It's a choice we all make.

[AlexCrowley 0]

paragraphs.

look into it.

However, I totally agree with you about the skydiving 'community'. I've met some great people who I'd want to have as friends regardless of their hobby, but on the whole the rest is an illusion perpetuated by those who are nostalgic and actually DO have the community that is created by being a member of a very small minority and the rest by people paying lipservice to the whole 'brother/sisterhood' romanticism yet dont show it.

When you talk about bike clubs I understand exactly what you're saying about the differences.

I guess I'm not disappointed simply because I didnt enter the sport assuming that I would instantly bond with people. My bond with those people with whom I trained in the ring, and who I share lockers rooms with across New England - often guys I see one or twice a year for a few minutes here and there - is far greater than the majority of people I have met in the skydiving 'community'.

Thats not to shit on those who I do consider friends, and those at my dropzone. But the level of respect and trust isnt even in the same ballpark as those guys with whom I trust my life to in the ring with very very few exceptions.

Maybe I'll feel different when I have more than 40 jumps and have jumped with people and learnt more, but the vibe itself is so different that I really doubt it.

From my experience with biker gangs (more than a passing aquaintance).

I'd love to sit and vomit up why I think things are different - but its based on a risk vs reward. Jumping today is a fun yuppie sport thats hardly considered extreme by those drawn to it. There's no real reality involved in the risk we take. The generations (skydiving wise) previously relied on each other on so many levels that the community aspect was inevitable. Nowadays thats not the case.

blahblahblahblah.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[waltappel 1]

I think you are exactly right in that it is about risk. Human bonding and trust are earned and once you are off student status, it's pretty unusual for you to put your life in another's hands while skydiving. There is little opportunity for earning that trust.

We share a common risk and love of the same activity, but expecting a brotherhood/sisterhood out of that is naive and unrealistic. I was that naive and unrealistic years ago and was dumbfounded after getting monetarily jerked around by another skydiver. When I was whining about it to a friend, who was a non-jumper, he said something like, "So, you expect someone who is a shithead to treat you better than he treats other people because you share the same hobby?".

Sounds like a very naive expectation when put that way, and it really is.

Here's a more realistic view, coming from someone who has been in the sport for over 25 years.

The common thread among skydivers is the willingness to do something extraordinary. That doesn't mean that everyone who does it is an extraordinary person, but some are, and the fact that skydiving gives me the opportunity to meet some truly extraordinary people is good enough for me.

Actually, it's a lot more than "good enough". I have met some truly extraordinary people while skydiving, BASE jumping, and certainly through dz.com. I'm not going to list them because it would be a ridiculously long list and, being the mental klutz that I am, I'm sure I would leave off a few people who are truly near and dear to me.

I can easily think of a few people who I have met that I will love very deeply until the day I die, no matter what. They happen to be jumpers or former jumpers.

I'll settle for that.

Walt

[Lindsey 0]

Maybe coming up at a really small dz makes a difference, but my skydiving buddies are some of my closest friends. Of course, I've made 99% of my jumps with the same 5 or 6 people...and we've become pretty close. Idon't know how it'd be at larger dz's where priorities are different.

My skydiving buddies are also my biking buddies. If I recall from another thread, though, (and maybe I'm remembering wrong) we aren't people that you'd really care to ride with because we're not "real" riders or something like that??? Maybe I'm mistaken...that was a while ago. Everybody doesn't fit in everywhere. I hope that as you reflect on how you're feeling right now, you'll realize that skydivers are people.....regular ol' folks getting on with their regular ol' lives for the most part.

It sounds like you really are in a funk. I hope it gets better. I wonder if, maybe because of your experience with bikers, you maybe have had expectations about jumpers that just weren't realistic. Maybe if your expectations changed then you'd be able to see the good in these folks again. I've seen a lot more good in jumpers than bad....but again, I think that's people in general....

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rehmwa 2]

You don't join a brotherhood just by taking up a sport and hanging out. If you can, then that's a pretty shallow 'brotherhood' if you ask me.

But you can find brotherhood within any activity by finding people who appreciate who you are, not what you do. Even in skydiving (especially lately). If you couldn't, then go somewhere else or find a different crowd and figure out where you are doing it wrong.

pretty easy to blame everyone else, because you sound so flawless and easy to hang with

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[LuvToFly 0]

Friendships made years ago can have a very different texture to those established today, and some of the reasons are based on the changes in society. Both of my older brothers rode with colors and you're right, it was surely a brotherhood. But people coming into riding today don't seem to have that same connection.

With the relative affluence in the US, we have come to need each other less and less. My parents, and my grandparents before them told me great stories about the extraordinary ways even neighbors used to help each other. And these were not neighbors you necessarily knew that well. Leaving a child with a neighbor for a few hours in those days was not unusual. Each did for the other, and when times were lean, they helped each other. This, while not universally true during the 40's, etc .. was very prevalent.

Now, many live in sterile neighborhoods, with each member of the family having their own car - so even interdependence within a family is largely a thing of the past. It's not unusual today to see a modern housing development with houses built just 20' apart and many, many people still don't know their neighbors.

This affluence has created less interdependence, and as such, has affected all areas of life socially. When I was a kid, it was enough to be interested in the same things to make friends. Today it is different and we tend to be much more selective in who we choose to let into our world. Not only because we can afford to do so, but also because trust has eroded over time.

Do I think this is healthier? Not at all, but it is in many cases reality. And while not a terrific reality, we humans have survived by adaptation - and part of that means accepting the fact that things do change.

You clearly have depression at work in your life and that's a really tought spot to be. I've been there myself. The, "everything sucks" mantra is something that most fall towards when they do deep depression. But there are still many good things, and yes, good and decent people. I don't know how many of them are in the skydiving community, but I do know there are jerks everywhere. I like the previous poster's advice to try to contribute to someone else's life to get you back on track.

In a way, skydiving might not be a great place to look for the type of comradarie that you described. It's not like a soccer team where each member is interdependent on another (Airspeed, etc excluded) When you stop and think about it, we are taught from the very beginning of the sport to depend on ourselves, alone. We are responsible to take care of things single-handedly, from packing to pulling - and everything in between. In an air of such self-reliance, it might be the wrong venue to expect such brotherhood. Sure, getting on a big way might seem like a connection, but nothing like what you are describing. In a sense, it is a very isolated sport as there is no one but you in the end to take care of things or get you down to the field without breaking a leg.
One thing I would say is I'd avoid spending any time blaming others for feeling miserable though. It will only prolong the depression you are feeling. Once we make others responsible for our bad feelings, we have no control over the situation to bring ourselves out of the funk - "other people" control us at that point and that's not good.

Perspective sounds too easy, but let's face it, that's exactly what it is. One person sees something as a wonderful opportunity, while another sees the very same situation as a burden. There are probably equally as many motivations of why individuals skydive. And yes, I am sure that some of them are pure ego. But you'll find those kind of folks in any endeavor.

My original instructor reminded me to smile on my third AFF. I wasn't scared or unhappy - it just didn't occur to me. When I asked him why, he said if I wasn't having a blast, to quit because why do it? It's true, and if you're not having fun, I'd try something else.
Sounds like you've made some poor choices in the past. I think everybody has in some way. What you do with what you have to work with from this moment on is all that really counts though.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[marcandalysse 0]

well said walt!

marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[Slink2 0]

!

[TomAiello 25]

All,

I've cleaned this thread up.

Please try to take this in the spirit in which it was offered. If it degenerates again, I may move it out of SC.


Freethefly,

Let me know if you'd rather have this in the (somewhat more warm and fuzzy) Bonfire.

Thanks!

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[drdive 0]

Thanks for the cleanup.
Ed

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[freethefly 6]

Tom,
What I have been recieving since I have posted is what I need to hear. If I rubbed anybody the wrong way, I am sorry as it was not meant that way. I have been to a number of psycologist to come to grips with all I have done to people and to try and make sense of it all. In some way I believe I am seeking a religion of sorts. I use to believe that I was above it all, untill I was brought down. Only recently have I learned how far down it is that I went. I need to bare everything and put it out for all to see. Somewhere in this, someone else will see themself on the same road that I rode and hopefully detour so as not to crash as I have. The psycologist have told me time and time again that by continuing to keep my feelings bottled is only a means to an end. It is alright to show that you are weak and that is a very strong thing to do. To many people refuse to let their walls down and they live a miserable life because of it. There is liberation in letting go of it. I feel much better by starting a process that I should had started long ago. Instead I refused and it has brought me to this point. I pray that someone else will recognize this same reluctance in their own life and seek help for it. I know that I was unduly harsh on the skydive community as everyone does have opinions and my expectations are just that expectations. Not everyone will understand this. I am only now, after so many years of people bowing to me out of fear, starting to realize the crime in what I have done. I have embraced the 7 deadly sins for so long that it was all I knew. I have cursed the Gods and all that they stood for all the while believing that I myself was the only God. I have faced many people and beat them down only to be beaten down by a virus that I cannot kill. It is the smallest of things that will bring a stone wall down and expose an ugly truth about to yourself. Years ago I would had laughed at a person for doing what I am doing now. I was unlearned in so many ways and uncaring to the feelings of so many. I am looking to find peace in my heart and to be able to forgive and love myself. It is the only way that I have to go. To often do we read on this board of a suicide of someones loved one. I know all to well what they were feeling and know how alone one feels when they think there is no out for them. Baring my soul for all to see is my out and I will continue baring all. It is the only road to salvation and it is a long road to travel. I am not hiding behind a screen name as I posted my real name, as I am a real person. There are so many good people that I will meet along the way and I do appreciate their warmth and wish them well in their travels through life and hope that they to arrive at a their final destination safe from harm.
I will be off line for awhile has I have to get repairs to my computer.
May you find shelter on the shores of Heaven and peace in the heart of your Lord. Mark S. Hamm

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[goofyjumper 0]

The only thing I can say is to the people who know this guy......go and see him.
He sounds suicidal!
If I am wrong then sorry but, NOBODY HAS AN EASY LIFE!
Just try and do the best you can. There are people there for you, that is the way life works.
blue skies!

-----------------
I love and Miss you so much Honey!
Orfun #3 ~ Darla

[jdthomas 0]

Hammy

Hey bro.. we need to go make a few fun freefly dives soon.

Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[tbrown 26]

I think that a post that ridicules and makes fun of someone who says they're suicidal should be deleted and I wish you would do it. I am referring to one of our favorite pests at these forums. If he wants to criticize skydiving in So. Cal, or the Conatser family, then fine. They can stand up for themselves. But allowing a post that taunts a person of declared suicidal intetions is unconscionable.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

I think that a post that ridicules and makes fun of someone who says they're suicidal should be deleted and I wish you would do it. I am referring to one of our favorite pests at these forums. If he wants to criticize skydiving in So. Cal, or the Conatser family, then fine. They can stand up for themselves. But allowing a post that taunts a person of declared suicidal intetions is unconscionable.

I don't think such posts should be deleted.

It gives the people who make them a free pass. Better that the unmitigated meanness and lack of empathy should be out there in the open so that everyone can know what sort of person they're dealing with.

There's enough support in this thread--and in the kinds of threads that attract psycho ravers and trolls--that the garbage can be ignored except to the extent it lets you know who to avoid.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb