swoopfly 5 #1 August 29, 2014 A pilot wanted to fly 2 cessnas in formation on the same jump run and drop tandems. I expressed my concern and he acted as if all cessna dz operate this way, saying they all do it. I observed my concern as another tandem opened 500 ft above me just off to the side (too close for my comfort). I agreed planes do fly together in formation when there are big ways and the people in both planes want to be on the same jump, but TANDEMS? he even went to the length to say its in the FAR and reg. So thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,057 #2 August 29, 2014 My thought is that the pilot is making the job into all about him and the other pilot. I would never get on an airplane if this was the plan.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 271 #3 August 29, 2014 I don't know what the heck his thinking was, but I think it could be made to work, even if not particularly practical. Normally if you have two Cessnas, from what I've seen, you'll make sure the second doesn't drop until some minutes after the first, to make sure the airspace at opening height is clear. A visual confirmation is useful too - making sure nobody is open high, or that for example tandems on the previous load are indeed well clear and low. (I've been at a DZ with 4 C-182's dropping tandems all day, so it was common to be visually checking that the previous tandems were no longer below.) If you used two Cessnas in a loose formation, and dropped in succession, one plane first and then the other -- with appropriate time spacing -- it would be like having a single, larger aircraft dropping more jumpers. Seems similarly safe. Still, there are inefficiencies in getting a formation together due to different climb rates, and generally having to maneuver a formation more conservatively, making good spotting harder. So off the top of my head, it would generally just be better for a DZ (& its finances) to stagger takeoffs so the two planes will arrive on jump run some minutes apart.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #4 August 29, 2014 Going totally against manufacturer's recommendation, fuck, they don't even have regulation against this but I've seen, heard up to 6 way tandem being done. Three ti, and three passenger. Headdown round exit. Track off, dump the drogue, stack the deployment.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wstcstcmtr 0 #5 August 30, 2014 If you didn't think it was safe then why did you do it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #6 August 30, 2014 swoopflyA pilot wanted to fly 2 cessnas in formation on the same jump run and drop tandems. I don't see the advantage of doing this, and there are certainly downsides. Remember that midair collision not too long ago? It can be hard enough to make an emergency exit by yourself. Trying to do that with a scared passenger would probably be harder. Just the complication factor alone that someone else mentioned makes it a bad idea. Quote he even went to the length to say its in the FAR and reg. So thoughts? FAR's let you do a lot of things, many with varying degrees of risk. The FAR's don't even require us to open our parachutes. It's perfectly legal to go in, as long as your reserve is in date. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,229 #7 August 30, 2014 As long as the formation has six minutes of separation between aircraft. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 597 #8 August 30, 2014 First time I have heard of dropping tandems from planes flying in formation .......... But I have only been doing tandems for 30 years. First, formation flying slows down the entire DZ because you have to wait for the second batch of students to sign waivers, pay, train, dress, send selfies, walk to the plane, board the second plane, start the second plane, etc. It is far more efficient to quit wasting time waiting for the second plane because turning a profit while turning tandems is all about turning students as quickly as possible. OTOH What advantage did the pilot see to flying Cessnas in formation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #9 September 1, 2014 Do Cessna formation loads with experienced jumpers, not tandems who have no idea of the risk, which is not included in the UPT or Strong Waiver. Why do stupid stuff with tandems? If the reason is to stroke your own ego, then you should be fun jumping, not taking tandem students.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 597 #10 September 1, 2014 fencebusterDo Cessna formation loads with experienced jumpers, not tandems who have no idea of the risk, which is not included in the UPT or Strong Waiver. Why do stupid stuff with tandems? If the reason is to stroke your own ego, then you should be fun jumping, not taking tandem students. ........................................................................................ Agreed The only time I have flown formations in Cessnas was when we were trying to build ten-way formations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 119 #11 September 1, 2014 riggerrob***Do Cessna formation loads with experienced jumpers, not tandems who have no idea of the risk, which is not included in the UPT or Strong Waiver. Why do stupid stuff with tandems? If the reason is to stroke your own ego, then you should be fun jumping, not taking tandem students. ........................................................................................ Agreed The only time I have flown formations in Cessnas was when we were trying to build ten-way formations. The pilots need to have their act together. Used to do a lot of 10 ways out of Cessnas back in the day. With one inexperienced pilot in the chase plane one day he completely messed up the formation on exit, was slow to power off and lost sight of the base plane, and then allowed the chase plane to drift over the top of the base. In the excitement of the exit, the chasers left. The a/c formation went south very quickly. One just missed the prop, one just missed the left leading edge of the wing, one went between the wing and the tailplane, the other two went down the right side of the base plane, and the base pilot needed a new set of underpants. Pilots should not be practising their formation flying with a load of meatbombs on board. Tell them to do it in slow single seaters. We did get the 10 way speed star together but there were some shoook up jumpers in the circle. Edited to add: The inexperienced pilot was axed from flying formation loads, mainly becaused he'd ignored the briefing about this very scenario playing out.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #12 September 1, 2014 Why bother? Seriously, what are they going to do, build a 4-way? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #13 September 1, 2014 stayhighGoing totally against manufacturer's recommendation, fuck, they don't even have regulation against this but I've seen, heard up to 6 way tandem being done. Three ti, and three passenger. Headdown round exit. Track off, dump the drogue, stack the deployment. Smart! Their packers must be flawless, and never ever pack a drogue that gives them a hard pull!"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 271 #14 September 2, 2014 obelixtim Pilots should not be practising their formation flying with a load of meatbombs on board. Tell them to do it in slow single seaters. I know exactly what you mean, and it makes sense if talking about pilots who go, "Hey, wanna try some formation flying? I've never really done it!" But I'm not against pilots learning on the job. Few pilots hired by a DZ flying C-182's have prior formation flying experience, so the only realistic way to do formation flying is to do it flying skydivers. Under supervision in a graduated manner of course. It isn't as if the DZO is going to send pilots off on some formation flying course. At least that's all how it has been locally. I've been on 2,3, and 4 C-182 loads over the years, few of which likely would have happened if one were relying only on pilots with prior formation experience or certifications. I'll also note that the original post could apply to either a tight formation or a loose formation, which are different animals even though some basic skills are in common. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 119 #15 September 2, 2014 pchapman*** Pilots should not be practising their formation flying with a load of meatbombs on board. Tell them to do it in slow single seaters. I know exactly what you mean, and it makes sense if talking about pilots who go, "Hey, wanna try some formation flying? I've never really done it!" But I'm not against pilots learning on the job. Few pilots hired by a DZ flying C-182's have prior formation flying experience, so the only realistic way to do formation flying is to do it flying skydivers. Under supervision in a graduated manner of course. It isn't as if the DZO is going to send pilots off on some formation flying course. At least that's all how it has been locally. I've been on 2,3, and 4 C-182 loads over the years, few of which likely would have happened if one were relying only on pilots with prior formation experience or certifications. I'll also note that the original post could apply to either a tight formation or a loose formation, which are different animals even though some basic skills are in common. I agree with pilots needing to learn to fly formations, but they should have some experience first, and if you are going to introduce someone to doing so, the other pilot should have a lot of experience and mentor the newbie. Formation flying especially with jumpers exiting different aircraft is not easy at all. A lot more complex than normal formation flying. Lots more is at stake. It sounds like these guys just wanted to try it out, which if it doesn't work properly is going to cost the jumpers, if only in time and unsuccessful formation skydives. Having two newbies flying close formation together is not really a good idea. As has been said about tandems, whats the point of it?.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #16 September 2, 2014 Not if the rig has a BOC pouch so loose that you tuck in the drogue completely inside.I love loose BOC pouch on a tandem rig. I always pick the rig with the ginormous opening on the BOC. Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swoopfly 5 #17 September 3, 2014 I think the initial intention was to keep an eye on the other plane as y climb to altitude, as air traffic controllers didn't want to have to keep an eye and tell both planes where they are at all times. The pilot seemed to do this at another dz, so I gave it a go thinking he might know what he was talking about. After the trial run I knew my instincts were right as they most always are, and it was one of the dumbest ideas ever! I asked you other skydivers because this pilot was also a low time jumper and gave me the attitude as if I am dumb for even questioning him! But yes I know to go with what I believe and he is an idiot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #18 September 3, 2014 swoopfly I think the initial intention was to keep an eye on the other plane as y climb to altitude, as air traffic controllers didn't want to have to keep an eye and tell both planes where they are at all times. I've heard of this happening before and ATC telling the guys they didn't have time to baby sit them. Any group of jump pilots should be able to separate themselves from each other just by following a basic climb route away from the DZ and a little company radio communication. On the other hand, ATC's job is to give the jump pilot traffic information when the pilot makes the "one minute prior to jump" call. If the air traffic controllers refuse THAT, please PM me with the details. At that point you literally have a federal case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #19 September 3, 2014 swoopflyhe even went to the length to say its in the FAR and reg. So thoughts? Well, if they're flying in the US airspace... I'd like to know what FAR he's thinking of. The one I think of: Quote § 91.111 Operating near other aircraft. (a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard. (b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation. (c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight. "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #20 September 4, 2014 theonlyski (c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight. We are extremely lucky the FAA lets jump operations fly as Part 91 operations, general, instead of the much more restrictive Part 135, flying for hire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 597 #21 October 1, 2014 .... The pilots need to have their act together. Used to do a lot of 10 ways out of Cessnas back in the day. With one inexperienced pilot in the chase plane one day he completely messed up the formation on exit, was slow to power off and lost sight of the base plane, and then allowed the chase plane to drift over the top of the base. .... The inexperienced pilot was axed from flying formation loads, mainly because he'd ignored the briefing about this very scenario ... .................................................................................... The quickest way for a pilot to get "sent home" from a FAST clinic is to continue flying a blind approach to a formation. Formation And Safety Training camps are hosted several times a year by the North American Trainer Association. They run separate FAST camps for different types of airplanes. For example: only T-28s are welcome at one camp. A second camp might only welcome Beechcraft T-34 Mentors, while a third camp only welcomes T-6 Texans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites