I wish the price of gas in the US would DOUBLE overnight

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

haha ok whatever dude, i'm happy for you you have it so good and "way better than me" LOL. Probably a good job you worked so hard for yourself and have done so well - the extra cost of gas is going to cut a little deeper into your pockets

How clueless can you be. He just told you it wasn't going to affect him that much. Believe it or not, there are a great deal of people who aren't going to be affected much by rising gas prices. I know I'm not. You think an extra $10 or $20 per fill up means anything to those making well over 6 figures? The people you want to hurt with your little sandbox perspective are the poor. Get it yet?

Oh i get it just fine thanks. But as long as those making over 6 figures are ok, who cares!

Right?

Apparently not you, based on your little wish to hurt the poor.

I don't want to hurt the poor. The poor can't even afford a car in the first place. I would just like your average self centred American to stop whinging about paying "so much more for fuel". Get over it and stump up the change!

Edited to add - just to clarify, i'm not saying your average American is self centred. In fact i find it to be the opposite from my experience.

People always whine whenever they have to pay more for anything be it, milk, bread, meat or gas. Does that make them self-centered? Would you considerer skydivers who whine about increases in jump tickets self centered?

[billvon 2,426]

>How clueless can you be.

Your one warning (again.)

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

haha ok whatever dude, i'm happy for you you have it so good and "way better than me" LOL. Probably a good job you worked so hard for yourself and have done so well - the extra cost of gas is going to cut a little deeper into your pockets

How clueless can you be. He just told you it wasn't going to affect him that much. Believe it or not, there are a great deal of people who aren't going to be affected much by rising gas prices. I know I'm not. You think an extra $10 or $20 per fill up means anything to those making well over 6 figures? The people you want to hurt with your little sandbox perspective are the poor. Get it yet?

Oh i get it just fine thanks. But as long as those making over 6 figures are ok, who cares!

Right?

Apparently not you, based on your little wish to hurt the poor.

I don't want to hurt the poor. The poor can't even afford a car in the first place. I would just like your average self centred American to stop whinging about paying "so much more for fuel". Get over it and stump up the change!

Edited to add - just to clarify, i'm not saying your average American is self centred. In fact i find it to be the opposite from my experience.

People always whine whenever they have to pay more for anything be it, milk, bread, meat or gas. Does that make them self-centered? Would you considerer skydivers who whine about increases in jump tickets self centered?

More or less yes. Skydiving is a sport your CHOOSE to be in. We pollute the environment. We use up a scarce resource so we can do something pretty stupid but - as far as we are concerned - fun as hell. Should we be allowed to do this? Sure! Should we be entitled to whine when prices go up? Maybe initially but then it's time to pay up, move to another dz, or quit, but i don't want to hear whinging everytime the price of Jet A goes up. Skydiving is a choice, not a staple requirement.

If milk and bread double in price overnight - staple foods that many people rely on to live or to maintain a balanced diet - i would be side by side with the whiners myself, protesting in the streets. What i can't stand is those people whining about the extra cost of gas because it will increase the cost of their trip to the dz/beach whatever! You have a car, you are more fortunate than those that don't, so stop whining for something that kills the planet and is still damn cheap anyway, is what i'm saying.

I am obviously generalising very much in my "i hope the price of gas doubles" statement. I know this would affect the poor and those who have long commutes to work, and i wouldn;t wish that on anyone. But for those who are driving hummers and SUV's - those who have never cared about the true cost of owning a 9miles to the gallon car has for the rest of us - i have little to no sympathy to be honest.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

More or less yes. Skydiving is a sport your CHOOSE to be in. We pollute the environment. We use up a scarce resource so we can do something pretty stupid but - as far as we are concerned - fun as hell. Should we be allowed to do this? Sure! Should we be entitled to whine when prices go up? Maybe initially but then it's time to pay up, move to another dz, or quit, but i don't want to hear whinging everytime the price of Jet A goes up. Skydiving is a choice, not a staple requirement.

If milk and bread double in price overnight - staple foods that many people rely on to live or to maintain a balanced diet - i would be side by side with the whiners myself, protesting in the streets. What i can't stand is those people whining about the extra cost of gas because it will increase the cost of their trip to the dz/beach whatever! You have a car, you are more fortunate than those that don't, so stop whining for something that kills the planet and is still damn cheap anyway, is what i'm saying.

I am obviously generalising very much in my "i hope the price of gas doubles" statement. I know this would affect the poor and those who have long commutes to work, and i wouldn;t wish that on anyone. But for those who are driving hummers and SUV's - those who have never cared about the true cost of owning a 9miles to the gallon car has for the rest of us - i have little to no sympathy to be honest.

What do you think is going to happen to "those poor people" when the transport trucks - you know, the ones that bring the bread and milk to the stores? - can't run because the companies can't afford to buy fuel for them?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,644]

Quote

Quote

haha ok whatever dude, i'm happy for you you have it so good and "way better than me" LOL. Probably a good job you worked so hard for yourself and have done so well - the extra cost of gas is going to cut a little deeper into your pockets

How clueless can you be. He just told you it wasn't going to affect him that much. Believe it or not, there are a great deal of people who aren't going to be affected much by rising gas prices. I know I'm not. You think an extra $10 or $20 per fill up means anything to those making well over 6 figures? The people you want to hurt with your little sandbox perspective are the poor. Get it yet?

I make over 6 figures and I'm pissed about gas prices. $200 to fill up my plane this week!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,426]

>What do you think is going to happen to "those poor people" when
> the transport trucks - you know, the ones that bring the bread and
> milk to the stores? - can't run because the companies can't afford to
> buy fuel for them?

A company smart enough to buy efficient trucks will take over, and the more foolish trucking companies will go out of business.

An company I once worked for converted about 30 bread delivery trucks to electric power about 15 years ago. Works out well, because the weight of the batteries is offset by the (negligible) weight of the bread. Such things will allow bread delivery to continue.

There will always be poor. "Just letting them die" will never be an option in any humane society. If there is a failure in a system (food, water) that threatens their lives, then it becomes the job of the successful to take care of those who can't feed themselves - whether that happens at the private, state or federal level.

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Quote

More or less yes. Skydiving is a sport your CHOOSE to be in. We pollute the environment. We use up a scarce resource so we can do something pretty stupid but - as far as we are concerned - fun as hell. Should we be allowed to do this? Sure! Should we be entitled to whine when prices go up? Maybe initially but then it's time to pay up, move to another dz, or quit, but i don't want to hear whinging everytime the price of Jet A goes up. Skydiving is a choice, not a staple requirement.

If milk and bread double in price overnight - staple foods that many people rely on to live or to maintain a balanced diet - i would be side by side with the whiners myself, protesting in the streets. What i can't stand is those people whining about the extra cost of gas because it will increase the cost of their trip to the dz/beach whatever! You have a car, you are more fortunate than those that don't, so stop whining for something that kills the planet and is still damn cheap anyway, is what i'm saying.

I am obviously generalising very much in my "i hope the price of gas doubles" statement. I know this would affect the poor and those who have long commutes to work, and i wouldn;t wish that on anyone. But for those who are driving hummers and SUV's - those who have never cared about the true cost of owning a 9miles to the gallon car has for the rest of us - i have little to no sympathy to be honest.

What do you think is going to happen to "those poor people" when the transport trucks - you know, the ones that bring the bread and milk to the stores? - can't run because the companies can't afford to buy fuel for them?

Whoa, weird! Even though our petrol costs up to 3 times what it costs there, we still have milk and bread on our supermarket shelves. What the heck is that all about?!

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>What do you think is going to happen to "those poor people" when
> the transport trucks - you know, the ones that bring the bread and
> milk to the stores? - can't run because the companies can't afford to
> buy fuel for them?

A company smart enough to buy efficient trucks will take over, and the more foolish trucking companies will go out of business.

An company I once worked for converted about 30 bread delivery trucks to electric power about 15 years ago. Works out well, because the weight of the batteries is offset by the (negligible) weight of the bread. Such things will allow bread delivery to continue.

There will always be poor. "Just letting them die" will never be an option in any humane society. If there is a failure in a system (food, water) that threatens their lives, then it becomes the job of the successful to take care of those who can't feed themselves - whether that happens at the private, state or federal level.

The transport industry relies on the semis to get the food, fuel and supplies where they need to go. The fuel price hike will have a greater impact on the trucking companies than most any other industry save, perhaps, air travel. That increase will surely trickle down to increased prices.

As for the remark about a smart company buying efficient trucks - I call bullshit on that. OTR semis are pretty close to being as efficient as they can be for the weights they have to haul. There's no way in hell that any sort of electric or hybrid is going to be anywhere near as efficient, especially with the extra weight from batteries/motors/etc.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

People will go back to Ye Ole Days and buy local produce .... far better that shipping truck loads of what is esssentially air (in the case of bread), anyway.

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 2,426]

>There's no way in hell that any sort of electric or hybrid is going to be
> anywhere near as efficient, especially with the extra weight from
> batteries/motors/etc.

One of the surest way to lose a bet, I've discovered, is to claim that there is no way anone will ever come up with a better/more efficient device. I can think of half a dozen ways OTR bulk transport can become more efficient; Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo etc have looked into these tricks in great detail. The primary reason it hasn't happened yet is that it's cheaper to pay for gas than to pay for the upgrades, especially on a vehicle with a lifetime of 3-4 years.

[mnealtx 0]

Doesn't work that way - the midwest is America's "Bread Basket". Stores do buy local produce, yes.. but the bulk of the food comes from mid-America.

Cripple the transport truck system and you starve the country.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>There's no way in hell that any sort of electric or hybrid is going to be
> anywhere near as efficient, especially with the extra weight from
> batteries/motors/etc.

One of the surest way to lose a bet, I've discovered, is to claim that there is no way anone will ever come up with a better/more efficient device. I can think of half a dozen ways OTR bulk transport can become more efficient; Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo etc have looked into these tricks in great detail. The primary reason it hasn't happened yet is that it's cheaper to pay for gas than to pay for the upgrades, especially on a vehicle with a lifetime of 3-4 years.

Interesting - can you provide more info? Everything that I've found on it showed that they were at least a decade or more away from any sort of usable electric technology for OTR trunking.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,644]

Quote

>There's no way in hell that any sort of electric or hybrid is going to be
> anywhere near as efficient, especially with the extra weight from
> batteries/motors/etc.

One of the surest way to lose a bet, I've discovered, is to claim that there is no way anone will ever come up with a better/more efficient device. I can think of half a dozen ways OTR bulk transport can become more efficient; Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo etc have looked into these tricks in great detail. The primary reason it hasn't happened yet is that it's cheaper to pay for gas than to pay for the upgrades, especially on a vehicle with a lifetime of 3-4 years.

In small sizes, electronically commutated rare-earth-magnet motors with LiPo batteries are already as efficient as alcohol burning IC engines. Once the habit of LiPo batteries to explode is fixed, they'll probably move into larger sizes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

As for the remark about a smart company buying efficient trucks - I call bullshit on that.

Buy diesel trucks. Put vegetable oil in them. Job's a good'un.

[billvon 2,426]

> Everything that I've found on it showed that they were at least a
> decade or more away from any sort of usable electric technology for
> OTR trunking.

These were just from the last truck show alone:

-An APU that allows drivers to shut off their engines at night and still run A/C and heat

-Navigation systems that prevent drivers from getting lost (up to 2 hrs/week in some fleets)

-Tailcones to improve efficiency

-Pneumatic and hydraulic power recovery systems (i.e. non-electric hybrids)

-Gaseous injection systems (I don't really believe this one, but they claimed a 10% mileage increase for hydrogen injection)

-Flexible/inflatable air dams

-Under-trailer shrouds to improve efficiency

-Atkins-style diesels to improve partial-power efficiency.

-PSD-style CVT's to both improve mileage and force stochiometric operation for trap catalyst operation

Now, some of these are probably never going to see the light of day, and some won't be cost effective until diesel hits $4/gallon. But the ideas are there.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

>What do you think is going to happen to "those poor people" when
> the transport trucks - you know, the ones that bring the bread and
> milk to the stores? - can't run because the companies can't afford to
> buy fuel for them?

A company smart enough to buy efficient trucks will take over, and the more foolish trucking companies will go out of business.

An company I once worked for converted about 30 bread delivery trucks to electric power about 15 years ago. Works out well, because the weight of the batteries is offset by the (negligible) weight of the bread. Such things will allow bread delivery to continue.

There will always be poor. "Just letting them die" will never be an option in any humane society. If there is a failure in a system (food, water) that threatens their lives, then it becomes the job of the successful to take care of those who can't feed themselves - whether that happens at the private, state or federal level.

Since many of the trucking companies use Independent Contractors to haul cargo, higher fuel costs will likely put them out of business. How is the Independent suppose to compete with the larger trucking companies? He can't afford to just go out and spend $150,000 on a newer high efficient rig anymore than somebody poor can just go out and buy a higher fuel efficient car.

[billvon 2,426]

>He can't afford to just go out and spend $150,000 on a newer high
> efficient rig anymore than somebody poor can just go out and buy a
> higher fuel efficient car.

Then he will go out of business, and an independent with better resources/loans will take over his niche.

Independents have been battling with fleets for decades now. Prices for both of them are about to go up. The same niches for both will still exist, and both will have to pay for the new trucks. Given that independents are currently willing to spend tens of thousands on custom Peterbilt 379's, not all of them are going to go bankrupt. They'll just have to live with a less tricked-out, more efficient tractor.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm sorry to say that your wish for higher energy costs only to cause consumers to use less is flawed. You say the poor aren't effected since they don't own vehicles is not true. Everyone is effect. Why because of economics. Higher energy costs will effect virtually every commondity that society consumes. Higher costs lead to inflation, to higher interest rates and lower economic development, less jobs and more uncertainty and poverty.

Sure Americans could do a better job conserving natural resources. But to wish economic doom and gloom only because you don't like how a certain society lives doesn't make you a better person now does it? IMHO western society is in trouble. Let's not make it harder than it needs to be. Instead of working against each other, how about trying to work with each other. Or is judging people who are different from yourself what makes you tick?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

>He can't afford to just go out and spend $150,000 on a newer high
> efficient rig anymore than somebody poor can just go out and buy a
> higher fuel efficient car.

Then he will go out of business, and an independent with better resources/loans will take over his niche.

Independents have been battling with fleets for decades now. Prices for both of them are about to go up. The same niches for both will still exist, and both will have to pay for the new trucks. Given that independents are currently willing to spend tens of thousands on custom Peterbilt 379's, not all of them are going to go bankrupt. They'll just have to live with a less tricked-out, more efficient tractor.

Except that many Independents can't even afford a new rig so they buy used. With the fleets upgrading to newer vehicles, that only leaves the used ones for the poor independent. Would you also have the same perspective on someone poor living in N.O.? Just tell them to go out and buy a new Hybrid for $30,000.

BTW while we are on the subject of fuel efficiency, have you read the Oct issue of Consumer Reports? Big article about how the EPA mileage figures are grossly overstated. They tested the Honda Civic Hybrid and it only averaged 25 mpg. city. EPA rating was 48 mpg city. Just what I have been saying for a long time.

[shropshire 0]

O.K then ship stuff by train - surely far more payload per unit of fuel than using convoys of lorries.

Also, it could be a mind-set thing..... Some people like to look for problems and others for solutions.

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[shropshire 0]

You may like to add to that list ...... brake activated flywheels, which store engery released when vehicles slow down and use it again for acceleration.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[caz 0]

I really do think its quite amusing how none of the Americans replying on here appear to be getting the point of Newbie's thread at all.

He seems to be simply amused at the HUGE fuss you guys are all making about a price increase of your fuel, when it is still a huge amount cheaper than over here. If the price of fuel in the UK was $4 or $5 a gallon we would all most likely be out rejoycing in the streets!!

Forgive me Newbie if this isn't the point you were trying to make

~~~ London Skydivers ~~~

[Newbie 0]

Quote

I really do think its quite amusing how none of the Americans replying on here appear to be getting the point of Newbie's thread at all.

He seems to be simply amused at the HUGE fuss you guys are all making about a price increase of your fuel, when it is still a huge amount cheaper than over here. If the price of fuel in the UK was $4 or $5 a gallon we would all most likely be out rejoycing in the streets!!

Forgive me Newbie if this isn't the point you were trying to make

Your prize is in the mail.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[billvon 2,426]

>Except that many Independents can't even afford a new rig so they
>buy used.

Quite true. Same with some fleets. Result - some will go out of business, others will do better due to the increased markets that they will abandon. Capitalism in action.

>With the fleets upgrading to newer vehicles, that only leaves the
> used ones for the poor independent. Would you also have the same
> perspective on someone poor living in N.O.? Just tell them to go out
> and buy a new Hybrid for $30,000.

No, a bike would work a lot better, and they cost $100.

>BTW while we are on the subject of fuel efficiency, have you read the
> Oct issue of Consumer Reports? Big article about how the EPA
> mileage figures are grossly overstated. They tested the Honda Civic
> Hybrid and it only averaged 25 mpg. city.

I have a Honda Hybrid. One day I did my level best to get bad gas mileage - drove as fast as I could, slammed on the brakes as hard as possible (which was way more than the regen system could handle) turned off all the economy features etc. Got about 30 mpg. It averages around 45. I've gotten 66mpg by driving 55mph over 130 miles.

[dbattman 0]

How many KW do you think it would take to power a small car on a straight electric, something like an EV1? I've always been curious about the possibility of swapping out some of the battery packs for an electric generator. You'd still need storage to handle the peak acceleration load, but once you're up to speed how much continuous power do you think would be required.

Had an old roommate who's father leased an EV1 from Georgia Power as part of their fleet requirements. Great car, loved driving it.