ChasingBlueSky 0 #1 June 30, 2005 http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-home30.html U.S. blasts town for using Patriot Act to evict homeless NEWARK, N.J. -- The U.S. Justice Department criticized a New Jersey city Wednesday for invoking the USA Patriot Act to justify kicking homeless people out of its train station. In an answer to a lawsuit brought by a homeless man ejected from the Summit train station, the city cited a section of the Patriot Act regarding ''attacks and other violence against mass transportation systems.'' But Kevin Madden, a Justice Department spokesman, said Summit has no business invoking the anti-terrorism law in that way. ''The Patriot Act is a law enforcement tool to identify and track terrorists and stop them from further attacks on America,'' he said Wednesday. ''To apply it to this case is, shall we say, an overreaching application of the law.'' The city is among several defendants being sued in federal court by Richard Kreimer, 55. He is seeking at least $5 million in damages, claiming he and other homeless people have been unlawfully thrown out of train stations since August._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #2 June 30, 2005 What a caring sharing world we live in. On another thread, we discussed the 3rd world.... it's here, right under our noses..... if we only cared enough to look. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #3 June 30, 2005 > . . . invoking the USA Patriot Act to justify kicking homeless people out of its train station. Imagine that! Government abusing its power. No one could possibly have seen that coming! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #4 June 30, 2005 Devil's Advocate: The train station is not a homeless shelter. If they don't have a ticket indicating they belong there, then they should move on to somewhere else. The real patrons don't want to stumble all over the homeless people who don't belong there. Would you want homeless people camping out in your DZ's indoor packing area? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 June 30, 2005 $5 Million for getting kicked out of a place. if he wins, we won't need affordable housing (which the government can now take take your house away in order to use it that way). The bums can all buy mansions. Edit: Certainly it's an abuse of the P-Act when likely loitering laws could have been invoked for the same purpose. use the laws on the books people. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #6 June 30, 2005 QuoteWould you want homeless people camping out in your DZ's indoor packing area? Lots of homeless people live at dz's. Some live in tents some are more fortunate to live in trailers but some sleep on the floor of the packing area and live out of their car. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #7 June 30, 2005 Quote Would you want homeless people camping out in your DZ's indoor packing area? Uh, drop by on sunday morning, there will probably be a few....illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #8 June 30, 2005 Quote> . . . invoking the USA Patriot Act to justify kicking homeless people out of its train station. Imagine that! Government abusing its power. No one could possibly have seen that coming! Imagine that, a local government abusing a federal statute and the feds (justice department spokesman) dressing them down for the abuse. You wouldn't have predicted that. edit: "But Kevin Madden, a Justice Department spokesman, said Summit has no business invoking the anti-terrorism law in that way. " ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #9 June 30, 2005 QuoteDevil's Advocate: The train station is not a homeless shelter. If they don't have a ticket indicating they belong there, then they should move on to somewhere else. The real patrons don't want to stumble all over the homeless people who don't belong there. Would you want homeless people camping out in your DZ's indoor packing area? DZ= Prizate property (and there are plenty of bums there) Train Station = often open 24 hours/day, open to the public. While in college I used to go to O'Hare Airport to think and do homework. I would sit at the gates for hours on end watching planes take off. It was a favorite spot of mine. Why was I never kicked out?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #10 June 30, 2005 ''The Patriot Act is a law enforcement tool to identify and track terrorists and stop them from further attacks on America,'' he said Wednesday. ''To apply it to this case is, shall we say, an overreaching application of the law.'' Note what he says. He didn't say that this is an illegal application of the law. He didn't say that the plaintiffs should strike the affirmative defense of the Patriot Act. In a sense, he admits that this law can be used, as it is written, by the local government to do what it is doing, but that it is not what this law intended to do. Dang, look at how easy it is for governments to screw with individuals with the patriot Act. Pass the Tylenol.... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #11 June 30, 2005 >Lots of homeless people live at dz's. WHAT? Potential terrorists with access to large aircraft? Call the Justice Department, quick! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 June 30, 2005 QuoteIn a sense, he admits that this law can be used, as it is written, by the local government to do what it is doing, but that it is not what this law intended to do But that's ok, we have the supreme court in there to make sure that the laws are applied 'as intended' - right? It's their only job. I mean, they haven't screwed up that aspect of the job lately. Right? I mean, if they went and screwed up on something simple like Private Property rights or something like that misapplied at a local level then I'd be worried about something similar like this being abused at a local level. But of course they are freaking 'dial in' aren't they? Oh crap! ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #13 June 30, 2005 QuoteWHAT? Potential terrorists with access to large aircraft? Call the Justice Department, quick! I thought about this quite a bit, but decided we are to fanatical about skydiving to let some stupid terrorist take our jump craft. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #14 June 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteWould you want homeless people camping out in your DZ's indoor packing area? Lots of homeless people live at dz's. Some live in tents some are more fortunate to live in trailers but some sleep on the floor of the packing area and live out of their car. Cute. Yeah, but those homeless people buy jump tickets, and therefore deserve to be homeless there. The homeless people at the train station don't ride the trains - they just want a roof over their head. They should go find a roof at a homeless shelter, and leave the travelers and commuters alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #15 June 30, 2005 QuoteWhile in college I used to go to O'Hare Airport to think and do homework. I would sit at the gates for hours on end watching planes take off. It was a favorite spot of mine. Why was I never kicked out? You had probably bathed within 24 hours, wore clean clothes, weren't laying on the floor drinking cheap wine, and weren't annoying travelers by begging for money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #16 June 30, 2005 >You had probably bathed within 24 hours, wore clean clothes, weren't > laying on the floor drinking cheap wine, and weren't annoying > travelers by begging for money. I remember a certain boogie where none of those things were true . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #17 June 30, 2005 Quote>You had probably bathed within 24 hours, wore clean clothes, weren't > laying on the floor drinking cheap wine, and weren't annoying > travelers by begging for money. I remember a certain boogie where none of those things were true . . . Plus I was in college _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnyboydan 0 #18 June 30, 2005 The big problem is this, public or not, people pay to use the train station. So why should they have to put up with beggers and others just hanging around. If the homless want to hang out find a open field or somewhere where no cares or goes. But no they want to get your money or hang out in the nice heated place that I paid for. You call that fair. Get a life bud.johnnyboy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnyboydan 0 #19 June 30, 2005 As far as calling camping out jumpers that hang out at DZs or camp there. Come theyare there for a reason to jump, thats not even the same thing.johnnyboy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #20 June 30, 2005 QuoteThe big problem is this, public or not, people pay to use the train station. So why should they have to put up with beggers and others just hanging around. If the homless want to hang out find a open field or somewhere where no cares or goes. But no they want to get your money or hang out in the nice heated place that I paid for. You call that fair. Get a life bud. Out of site, out of mind. Once you don't have to see them anymore they are no longer a problem, huh? Effective social reform You paid for Grand Central Station or Union Station? Was that check or cash?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnyboydan 0 #21 June 30, 2005 I thought you were talking about cleaning up a place where people pay to use to up-grade etc. But you want me to fix the problem, don't sit around and say I have to put up with them. Start a business or something with government to employ the homeless. Then maybe they could rent a room and buy food. But most don't want to work or try to work. Thats ok with me too, if you want that life live it. But why are you asking to put with up with it, I didn't choose that life nor want to be around it. So stop forcing it on me and do something for them. Have you? As a matter of fact I do when I eat out and have left overs I always packit up and give it to someone. What's your deal just like to talk and no solutions?johnnyboy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #22 June 30, 2005 >So why should they have to put up with beggers and others just >hanging around. They don't. If you do not want to have your sensibilities offended by poor people, pass a law against loitering in the train station. Then use that law to evict them. Saying that they are terrorists who might want to blow something up is an abuse of the law. You can justify anything that way - heck, skydivers using a skyball are clearly terrorists dropping missiles over a transportation hub. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnyboydan 0 #23 June 30, 2005 Hey I uderstand what you are saying about the law that's given, I totally agree. I'm just saying just because some wants to hang somewhere doesn't make it ok.johnnyboy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #24 July 1, 2005 Quote>So why should they have to put up with beggers and others just >hanging around. They don't. If you do not want to have your sensibilities offended by poor people, pass a law against loitering in the train station. Then use that law to evict them. Saying that they are terrorists who might want to blow something up is an abuse of the law. You can justify anything that way - heck, skydivers using a skyball are clearly terrorists dropping missiles over a transportation hub. Exactly - make the law and stand by it. Don't abuse or misinterpret an existing set of laws - apparently that's for the higher courts to do. I bet the community already has loitering laws but just never enforced them until they lost their effectiveness. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #25 July 1, 2005 You know, when I was younger and backpacking through Europe, I spent the night at more than a few train stations. My clothes weren't clean, I doubt I was freshly showered, I *might* have been drinking cheap wine and I'm sure plenty of travelers and commuters found me annoying. But I didn't get kicked out and the only place I was remotely hassled was in what was then known as Yugoslavia. (you know, back when it was a communist country?) I'm sorry the homeless are so offensive to you but that really wasn't the point of the original post. It was yet another example of the Patriot Act being abused. Big surprise there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
