Is this legal?

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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No, definitely not. I got into skydiving doing a KNVVL (Dutch USPA) approved static-line course. The smallest canopy I've ever flown was a 170 loaded at 0.9. Most of my skydiving has been on Manta 220s and 260 square foot accuracy canopies.

I got into BASE jumping doing two, not one, first-jump-courses, and followed up with multiple experienced mentors.

Respectable and awesome progression in my opinion.

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I've done my fair share of stupid shit, but most BASE jumpers would say I've taken a fairly conservative and well prepared road into BASE.

I also happen to the founder and maintainer of BASE WIKI. I'm all for knowledge dissemination and giving people the most information and training they can possibly get before commiting to gravity.

Ive done my share as well, Ive done stupid shit and against what my instructors would recommend had I asked them. I will continue to do stupid shit but I would never blame my instructor. I learned by who I feel are the best. They are the best becasue I saw the spirit they had for student safety and skydiving. Do I think their word was the end all be all in the sport? No, not at all. However thats where over time I have done things that I wanted to try pushing my personal limits. Ive fractured my back, broken my nose, and tore my acl , etc . I own every single accident, I take the blame for my actions in the air and never have I blamed my training or lack there of. When I tore my acl for hours after the words out of my mouth were "Im a fucking idiot, should have listened to Mike" I am not justaflygirl, I was not sleeping with my instructor, and I do not ever blame my instructors for my inablity to land safely, they did their job they were "TRAINED" to do, and funny enough her husband was my tandem master.

Many people have talked in here how skydiving is freedom and not to regulate it etc etc , and you talk alot of base .... I do not compare the two and find them different sports for the most part with very few similarities.

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It's the multitude of skydivers that come to experience it as just another pasttime like golf and bowling.

Thats your perception and although I guess its easy to come to that conclusion I am a new skydiver with barely over 100 skydives, I have a right to ask questions, I have a right to wonder things, because as a person who is still learning I have so much to learn and that comes from asking questions, and going over the details, picking them apart because it is me who must decide when I get on that plane, who with, and will I make the right life saving decsions based on all possible outcomes. Just because some new skydivers act one way does not mean all do. However how the hell are people supposed to learn when they post something, show emotion over a students safety and are flamed for it? Sorry if I was not born to know all the details, and thank goodness my skin is thick. I will continue to ask questions and I will continue to state how I feel and seek information on why my feelings are mis-guided or mis-informed because I have no problem admitting I have alot to learn.

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However, when you start referring back to the pioneers in the sport you're crossing a line. Some of the pioneers would laugh at the kind of MTV past-time our sport has become.

And what about the pioneers who would be pissed that they took our injuries we could avoid because they made it happen, they took our pains in the sport to make it safer. For every pioneer who would be pissed that it is now a sport and not just "lifestyles for those with bigger balls" there is one who died in vein creating a sport that is now not just for "the good ole boys" This is a hobby for me not a lifestyle. If it had to be a lifestyle I would not be able to be in it, so does that mean I deserve the sky less because Im not all about popping a tent and cutting my life away for the sky? I dont rely on a AAD, will and have jumped without one (so happens my collision that broke my face was without a AAD) I dont rely on others to hold my hand. I do expect that students are hand held and protected while they are learning that there is so much more to learn then what they get on the ground in those 4 hours of training. Thats where this causes a problem for me.

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I do know Calvin and he is a respected skydiver, climber, rope-jumper, paraglider pilot, BASE jumper and airplane pilot. He knows a thing or two about risk management.

That may be. Also add things like liar, and forger to the list. Maybe its his injuries from his most recent paragliding accident that has him admitting to these things, like pencil packing, fucking with a AAD and training people and lying to the dz, but if he were smart hed not talk about it, or better yet not do it.

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I'm also confident that his friend would admit his mistake and take full ownership, should any accident have occured.

Back to beating the horse, Im sure if at this point a accident occured he would take ownership of the problem, but had he hurt someone or gotten hurt on that first jump that was above his experience then it falls on calvins shoulders as well, he encouraged and helped this person lie to the dropzone, thats my opinion.

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it is rather condenscending towards the general populace to assume they don't have the intelligence to separate sheer stupidity from pilot error.

You give general populace to much credit. Lets remember such skydivers as Lutz and Shanya Richardson ..... the general population are completley ignorant when it comes to skydiving and the dynamics of parachute flight. Is it their fault they are ignorant to it? Not really, its not how they live, not what they read about daily.... but thats besides the point....

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Somebody once said; "...I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me..."

And others have said "there are old , and there are bold, but there no old bold".... Can my 15 mins be up? If Calvin had not lied and helped forge the logbook, this thread wouldnt have a reason to exist. He may have the ability to instruct better then anyone alive, but all of that is negated the moment he trained his student to lie. This sport is based alot on trust. How can we trust people when they are willing to risk others lives by lying?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[billvon 2,400]

LMWB, lifewithoutanet, enough already. Your one warning(s.)

[MyTwoCents 0]

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"Sometimes a bad teacher will find a bad student, they'll fuck it up and a person will die. That's a price I'm willing to pay for freedom."

Sweet of you to be willing to risk other peoples lives.

I didn't risk any lives. People make their own choices. All we can do is give advice and try to mitigate consequences that go beyond the individual. I would have encouraged Calvin's friend to take a course. I wrote the getting-in-to-BASE part on BASE WIKI and I strongly urge everybody therein to take a First Jump Course (among taking other preparations).

However, what I think is a good idea is not what matters here. In my Speaker's Corner opinion, limits to freedom are bounded in as far as they affect other people's lives and the environment. In this case, I don't think there is a problem. In the case of driving on the right side of the road, I do think there is a problem; that's why it's the law.

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That is probably the most ridiculous statement on the internet today.

What is? That I'm okay with that occasionally people die so I can enjoy greater freedom? It's not a black and white thing; I'm happy I'm not on a curfew after eight PM just because I might get mugged on the streets in the dark. Conversely, I'm happy that I don't have the freedom to drive on the wrong side of the road.

A whuffo could easily extrapolate your insinuation that my statement was ridiculous by claiming that skydiving should be forbidden alltogether, because some people might die.

If I worded it this way; sometimes a skydiver will fuck it up and die. That's a price I'm willing to pay for having the freedom to skydive.

Is that a ridiculous statement as well? That would be odd, considering you have 1800 skydives.

Did Calvin's friend do a smart thing? I don't think so. There are better ways to get into skydiving.

Should it be made illegal? I prefer not.

[jdatc 0]

I don't usually engage in such banter- but, let me throw my hat in the ring.

To the original, which has been hashed out, legal yes. I could grab a friend who's a pilot, bomb out of the plane over an uninhabited area low(i.e. my own property) and open up at 7' and god know's it be legal as long as I had complied with FAA regs.... concerning ATC, notams, certified, blah blah blah...

oh wait, what's this in my pocket an FAA work id, commercial pilot license, Aircraft Dispatcher license, etc? Wait, I still get to keep all of these even if someone went to Johnny law, cause all I did was ignore some USPA regs?

hmm... the practiced approach is one thing, legal approach is another... but is it really the point?

People sometimes here it seems spend way too much time concerning themselves with other people then with themselves.

I could understand Lisamariewillbe's post if calvin showed up at the dropzone with a friend and they went tracking up the flightline, endangering others and drinking beer at the same time.

Seems to me she is just trying to stir things up. But what do I know. I just sit hear and see people with 10k posts and XXX jumps and say hmmm..... Maybe they should read more, think more, jump more, and post less....


But then again, what do I know?

ps Calvin, I'll jump with you anytime. we can take turns flying the jump plane.

[SwampThing 0]

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I just sit hear and see people with 10k posts and XXX jumps and say hmmm..... Maybe they should read more, think more, jump more, and post less....


But then again, what do I know?

ps Calvin, I'll jump you anytime, we can take turns

Group hug everyone??

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

[Scoop 0]

So it seems it is legal. Whoever wants to jump out of an aircraft must realise that it is a potentially dangerous activity. They can seek training in whatever way they feel appropriate to, it is their choice. If someone is actively encouraging newbies into the sport with inadequate training, that is different. But as already been stated, just because they arent USPA centres doesn't mean they are automatically dangerous.

Leave them to it I say.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Group hug everyone?

Dude look at your avatar, I aint hugging you till you shower first

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Calvin19 0]

holy shite. i need to think about what i make up before i post it.

sigh, sorry guys. i need to keep my trap shut. its no good these days.

i have said many times to disreguard whatever i write online. i should be more open about it.



but about my paraglider crash, there was in this thread a quote from a local paragliding 'instructor'. throughout my coma, this persons credentials were questioned a lot. I am not saying she was wrong, but i am saying that my instructor looked at flying later that day, and he said the winds had switched west. he did not check the winds at 7am (neither did forementioned 'instructor'), and we launched at 7-730am. (like she said, we need a NE to SE wind to fly safely at wonderland.

I honestly do not remember any of that day, the other pilot flying with me does, and he swears that it was southeast. i trust him, but i would feel much better if i knew that that day was for sure very bad west wind day. i lost a lot of faith in paragliding from that crash. I completely concede that i fucked up. it was a huge mistake, HUGE. weather database reads that the upper winds were fairly strong that day out of the west. so, unless there was a light SE breaze flowing that morning, (wich is a common thing for that site, several people get up early to beat the turbulant conditions the sun brings), I must have launched in a rotor. My paragliding instructor had a very similar accident years before me, at the same sight. (we are both in the 'brain injury club') he is the best paragliding instructor in Co, and in the last 6 months have flown with him a lot.

so, since this thread is a personal attack on Calvin19, (kidding, i deserve this shit for a big mouth) i am telling you that i very well may have fucked up really bad. If i didnt, then i sold a paraglider with a pretty bad unnoticable flaw to someone in Tx. I think i fucked up. I learned a lot from it. and it hurts me every day. it is the price i pay for such a mistake. it wont happen again.

oh, and the kids they mentioned as the younger ones in the article on my crash, i know those guys and have flown with them a bit. they are not as bad as you would think. they fly VERY old paragliders though. kinda scary. one of them recently bought new gear with a reserve equiped harness, i had to hook him up with the guy selling it though. he was kinda lazy.

people, sorry for causeing such a fuss with made up shit. at least its stimulating converstion. please, dont listen to me. i have a problem with posting stupid shit. i have asked a few moderators to ban me from all forums, but i have gotten no response. this is really not a joke, i have tried to change my password so i could no longer log on, but i still have the 'forgot password' thing.

dont listen to me. really, im not going to destroy this beautiful sport, or slow it down with a bunch of shit i make up while im bed ridden.

goodnight.

[diablopilot 2]

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Ill get flamed for this, but I think there should be laws about our instruction. Were not playing scrabble.

Who you trying to save? Leave well enough alone before the goombahs in the govermant coats and hats come over regulate this sport to the point you have to fill out triplicate paperwork for each jump.

Are you saying you don't have enough personal responsibility to jump safely without goverment regulation? Currently one jackass going off and reciving inadiquate trainint (if it wasn't a troll) isn't hurtting anyone, including you or the image of this sport.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Changed my opinion pages ago, I was just looking for ideas and to learn and understand. Im not trying to save anyone nor am I trying to knock them off.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[DougH 270]

You did? Don't back peddle so fast that you trip!!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Im not back peddling, is it not okay to change my mind about having more govt regulations? Would you prefer if I stuck by wanting the FAA involved in stdent training?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[DougH 270]

Maybe I should have used more 's

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[lisamariewillbe 1]

That would have been helpful .... ive got a flu , no coffee today, im not perky

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[recovercrachead 0]

Well we had a blast at the time with our bandit jumps.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[dorbie 0]

People outside the USPA have no say in it's rules and have as much right to skydive as you or I. The only entity with a valid objection here is the dropzone who have probably choosen to operate under USPA guidelines and were lied to and their business/reputation placed at risk.

Worse things happen. kids do drugs, teens street race, students binge drink, idiots base jump. So some guy learned skydiving the old fashioned way and got lucky. I doubt everyone fully appreciated the risks, but it went OK. He should be discouraged from trying it again though. Another friend might freak and I've seen some insane AFF video. It's a dumb thing to do but it's done now and legally.

[Buried 0]

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What I feel is "horrific", is people who promote the idea of removing a freedom, because of how that freedom sits with their emotions.

well then you should move out of the USA since the trend over the last 10-15+ yrs is moving PC. People, lawsuits, etc have been made because people's feelings get hurt and all this SH@T.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Would you prefer if I stuck by wanting the FAA involved in stdent training?

Oh Hell No! Please, our DZ does a fine job of training our students. We don't need 12 more layers of government interference.

[diablopilot 2]

Another thought for those that might not have looked into the history of our sport.

Anyone care to venture how AFF developed?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Zing 2]

Ever hear of Bob Sinclair? Maybe Ken Coleman? There were a number of others too.

Zing Lurks

[diablopilot 2]

That's the point I was trying to make. People had the same reactions to what they were doing in their day, as some of those made in this thread.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Another thought for those that might not have looked into the history of our sport.

Anyone care to venture how AFF developed?

Absolutely right. Back at my first DZ in the pre-AFF 70's, when girl jumpers got stuck on 5 or 10 second delays due to stability problems, an experienced male jumper would often "volunteer" to take them up for a linked 2-way from 8,000 to help them get dialed in. Usually worked, too.
P.S. male students, being FNG's, didn't get this; we just had to figure it out for ourselves.

[grue 1]

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It seems that many newer, less-experienced jumpers want to see the USPA rules, guidelines, etc. made into laws with criminal penalties. Most older, more-experienced jumpers do not want that.

As a newer, lesser experienced jumper, I'm going to go ahead and note that as soon as the FAA starts jumping up everyone's ass, the sport is going to lose a lot of the appeal.

The United States government in general, and the FAA in particular, have a long track record of showing they don't know what the fuck they're doing, and it's generally bad to be associated with anything they shine their eyes on.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

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What I feel is "horrific", is people who promote the idea of removing a freedom, because of how that freedom sits with their emotions.

The111 for president! YOu've got my vote

cavete terrae.