What Is Your Opinion On Feminists???

[skyyd1ve 0]

i consider myself a feminist, but i don't think i have the desire to be above men, just equal.
there are different types of feminists - gender feminists, moderate feminists, material feminists, libertarian feminists, ecofeminists, and radical feminists (who are pretty extreme in their views). the one universal belief, though, is that women and men ought to be equal socially and economically (for example, women still earn $0.75 for every $1.00 that a man earns).
i think a lot of people link radical feminism to a person when they hear "feminist" - it seems to be viewed as a negative thing. i think it's mostly radical feminists that believe women should be above men, etc.
what class was this in?

[justinb138 0]

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(for example, women still earn $0.75 for every $1.00 that a man earns).

That's not entirely true.

Check out these articles:
http://biz.yahoo.com/brn/050307/15226_1.html

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0223.html

The book being discussed in them is quite interesting.

[jenfly00 0]

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>My main problem with feminism? It isn't meant to support all women.

I think that's true of a small segment of vocal extremists in the movement, but not true of feminists in general.

Do you really think that's true? Women who work outside the home, for example, so often snub women who choose to stay home and raise their children....and vice versa. Maybe these women aren't feminists.... I don't really know exactly how that's really defined. Mimi Abramovitz would define feminism in much narrower and more extreme terms than I would.

Although I am pretty well educated and relatively independent, I really, really, REALLY like for a man to pamper me. I like to be treated "differently" than a man would treat his buddy. Although I do consider myself a bit of a feminist, there are other people on this site who absolutely believe that the way I like to be treated is discriminatory toward women. I, personally, would hate to see a time when I'm not treated like a lady by a man. Is that unfeminist of me? Is that unsupportable by feminists? Some of them? Most? I don't know.

linz

It's not supportable by me, for my values. The 'extras' you mentioned come with costs that continue to cotribute to a lesser status of women. If we truly seek equality, we need to let go of viewing ourselves as special.

Jen

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[skyyd1ve 0]

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(for example, women still earn $0.75 for every $1.00 that a man earns).

That's not entirely true.

Check out these articles:
http://biz.yahoo.com/brn/050307/15226_1.html

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0223.html

The book being discussed in them is quite interesting.

oh, but it is true...
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html
http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=8622
http://www.womensmedia.com/new/Lips-Hilary-gender-wage-gap.shtml
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/equalpayact1.html
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/CEA/html/gendergap.html

hope that helps =)

[justinb138 0]

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Quote

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(for example, women still earn $0.75 for every $1.00 that a man earns).

That's not entirely true.

Check out these articles:
http://biz.yahoo.com/brn/050307/15226_1.html

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0223.html

The book being discussed in them is quite interesting.

oh, but it is true...
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html
http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=8622
http://www.womensmedia.com/new/Lips-Hilary-gender-wage-gap.shtml
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/equalpayact1.html
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/CEA/html/gendergap.html

hope that helps =)

I read all of the articles you listed. Most had limited detail of the statistics used to make the determination.

The stuff I've read by Warren Farrell (IIRC, who used to be involved with NOW in California) I find much more convincing based on the level of detail present in his research that I simply didn't see in other studies.

I'm not convinced.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I heard a statement from one of my female professors the other day, talking about feminists.She stated that feminists have taken the desire of wanting equality with men, and taken it a step further, wanting to be above men. I have to agree with her on this subject. What do you think???

There is an old saying that women that strive to be as good as men have their sights too low.

The best definition I know of feminism comes from The Creation of Feminist Consciousness by Gerda Lerner. This book is usually available at your local library.

Feminist Consciousness:
an awareness …
-that women belong to a subordinate group
-that women have suffered wrongs as a group
-that the condition of subordination is not natural, but is socially determined
-that women must joined others to remedy these wrongs
-that women must and can provide a new vision of social organization that women as well as men enjoy self-determination and autonomy

Self-determination means 'Be all that you can be.' -just like the Army slogan. If that means being better than men in some area, so be it. If it means being equal to men, so be it. If it means choosing life as a stay at home Mom, so be it. It is all about choice and being able to have those choices.

Women have been denied access to education, jobs, and other endeavors.

Mary Wollstonecraft is usually considered the first feminist writer. She lived in the 1700's. She also died giving birth to Mary Shelly, the author of Frankenstein. Frankenstein is also consider to be a model story about how people that do not conform to social scripts become outcasts and vilified by society.

It wasn't until 1830 or so that women were allowed into colleges and universities. It is amazing that Princeton's president did not realize that thousands of years of socialization would take more than a few centuries to change.

Elizabeth Cody Stanton and Susan B. Anthony spent their entire adult lives trying to get women the vote in the US. They never lived to see that day. The groundwork they laid was picked up by the next generation. They provided the vision that lead to women getting the vote.

When I was a kid I was not allowed to join Little League Baseball. I played 500, hot-box and real baseball games with the boys during the week, but come the LL games I no longer was allowed.

When I was going off to college I could not attend the military academies, even though I really wanted to go to USAFA. I definitely had the intellect and physical strength, but women were not allowed.

I think that people that have never experienced 'denied access' first hand do not completely understand the implications.

Some women may come across as 'having an axe to grind', but most women do things that project a new vision of what can be and have the strength and courage to follow their desires. They overcome social obstacles by just doing what they want to do.

Once you realize that you can do what you want to and do not understand why other women just do not go out to get what they want, you start helping other women realize that they must believe in themselves and that social mechanisms are the greatest impediments. This is where and when separatist groups come into play.

Separatist groups are always a controversial subject. In some cases, it is seen as a good thing. A computer club might have a special interest group in C++ or whatever. That is perceived as good because the whole group does not want to listen to boring pointer conversations. A women's special interest group is perceived as a bad thing. I was actually boo'ed at a Sacramento PC User Group meeting (about 600 people, mostly men) by announcing the local Webgrrls chapter. I guess the concept of women getting together was too intimidating. One women was told by her husband that she could not attend the Webgrrls meetings. This was totally insane. She was a new web developer and wanted to learn more stuff. Her husband objected because it was women only. If you cannot find a place to talk frankly about how the rest of the world treats you, it is very hard to understand that you are not alone. It is very hard to understand that social conditions are the cause, not your innate value or skill level.

There are blacklash issues to deal with too. There are new generation issues. Some women coming of age today, do not realize how good they have it. Many girls grew up playing Little League and soccer. They figure it has always been that way. They do not realize that that is a new thing. The world has changed, but there are still gender biases.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[rehmwa 2]

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Many girls grew up playing Little League and soccer. They figure it has always been that way. They do not realize that that is a new thing.

Great example - for the health of this little girl, do we:

1 - Act like this is normal and how it should be and expect her to play ball with the other little girls and boys on an equal basis (and also have that expectation of the little boy she is friends with) or;

2 - Explain to her how terribe her mother was treated and that she has it 'special' and she better watch out for those bad and evil boys who will take that game away from her unless she builds a girls-only team and stops playing with that little boy. (in otherwords, put a big resentful chip on her shoulder for when she grows up). Oh, and in the meantime, make the little boy cry once a day for the actions of his grandpa, but don't tell him that, just tell him he's bad.

It's a real issue, do we project our bad experiences on the youth because we still feel the pain? or do we raise them with the expectations of correctness without subjecting them to that pain? Lessons in morality can be made without having to point at some 'bad guy'.

I think your 'new generation' issue isn't an 'issue', it's a statement of victory and that we're growing out of these petty differences. We should revel in it, not be in denial and force our kids to relive those times.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,436]

> (for example, women still earn $0.75 for every $1.00 that a man earns).

Let me ask you this, then.

Let's say working men and working women both make an average of $20 an hour. But for every 100 men that work, 75 women work and 25 prefer to stay home and take care of the kids. Their average is therefore $20/hr men, $15/hr women. Is that fair? Must women make more than men to make it fair?

[rehmwa 2]

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>
Let's say working men and working women both make an average of $20 an hour. But for every 100 men that work, 75 women work and 25 prefer to stay home and take care of the kids. Their average is therefore $20/hr men, $15/hr women. Is that fair? Must women make more than men to make it fair?

Men: $20/hr*100/100 = $20/hour
Women:$20/hr*75/75 = $20/hour, not $15

Are you sure you are not talking about quotas rather than salaries? I'm interested in your point, but am not following it.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[justinb138 0]

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> (for example, women still earn $0.75 for every $1.00 that a man earns).

Let me ask you this, then.

Let's say working men and working women both make an average of $20 an hour. But for every 100 men that work, 75 women work and 25 prefer to stay home and take care of the kids. Their average is therefore $20/hr men, $15/hr women. Is that fair? Must women make more than men to make it fair?

Based on what I've read, the average male works around 44 hrs per week, and the average female works around 41, which accounts for a portion of the pay gap. Also, of all the people that are killed in workplace accidents, men acount for 97-98 percent of them. If I can find some of the studies I've read, I'll post the statistics.

[billvon 2,436]

>Men: $20/hr*100/100 = $20/hour
>Women:$20/hr*75/75 = $20/hour, not $15

That is true if your criteria is WORKING men and women. If it is to compare ALL men to ALL women, then the average salary for women will be lower if they work (on average) fewer hours than men. It's a specsmanship issue, one that often clouds the issue when it comes to pay equity.

[lawrocket 3]

It is being reported that famed feminist Andrea Dworkin died yesterday.

Andrea Dworkin seems to me to be the example of the type of feminist that the first post was referring to - the feminist accused of being man-hating cultivating victimology of women.

While I do not entirely buy this line of argument (for example, Andrea Dworking NEVER claimed that "all sex is rape" despite the assertions from various right and left wingers), her writings were often viewed as espousing that undercurrent.

My belief is that there is a legitimate chance that the "victimology" of her writings and ideals, and her ideas and ideals were a foundation for many feminist thinkers and ideologues, could have had an opposite effect of that intended. While many viewed her writings as empowering, her writings necessarily caused a sense of fear among many women.

Hers was apparently a life beset with violence, rape and prostitution in her earlier years. This obviously would give a different societal viewpoint.

But this sort of writing, while well-intentioned, could have the same effect as "all drugs are bad." Some people truly believe that all psychotropic substances are bad, and thus blind themselves to the good effects that they can have. The same likely holds true for many women who view society and men with a sense of fear, blinded to the flip side realities of relationships and trust.

Karl Marx had good ideas that were ultimately perverted by others. I think that Andrea Dworkin is much the same.

I'm interested to read the obituaries and op-ed pieces about her life. Hopefully, she will be viewed as a person whose viewpoints ultimately caused good things to happen, and not be remembered as one whose thoughts and writings bred contempt, fear and divisiveness.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Skyrad 0]

Feminists? What you mean like women what has sex wiv women. Ai! Me finks dey is well fit. Big up de Feminists!! Woopwoop!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jenfly00 0]

There are blacklash issues to deal with too. There are new generation issues. Some women coming of age today, do not realize how good they have it. Many girls grew up playing Little League and soccer. They figure it has always been that way. They do not realize that that is a new thing. The world has changed, but there are still gender biases.
---------------------------------------------

Excellent points. The world has changed and yet some 'feminists' have not. I'm in my early 30's and I grew up in a world that offered women special legislation and social considerations. As a path to equality, perhaps these were good. Are they now??? If we want equality, do we still insist on the social and legal special considerations? Doesn't really seem fair or equal does it?

Jen

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[rehmwa 2]

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>Men: $20/hr*100/100 = $20/hour
>Women:$20/hr*75/75 = $20/hour, not $15

That is true if your criteria is WORKING men and women. If it is to compare ALL men to ALL women, then the average salary for women will be lower if they work (on average) fewer hours than men. It's a specsmanship issue, one that often clouds the issue when it comes to pay equity.

OK, I get your point. It's a dirty trick if that type of thing is being done.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SpeedRacer 1]

Andrea Dworkin once said "the penis is violence". And Katherine Mckinnon (not sure about the spelling) said "the only difference between rape and seduction is that in seduction the rapist bothers to buy a bottle of wine."

There was this extremist element popular in the 70s who basically believed that all heterosexual sex is rape, even if they didn't come right out & say it as such.

Speed Racer
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[MakeItHappen 15]

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Great example - for the health of this little girl, do we:

1 - Act like this is normal and how it should be and expect her to play ball with the other little girls and boys on an equal basis (and also have that expectation of the little boy she is friends with) or;

2 - Explain to her how terribe her mother was treated and that she has it 'special' and she better watch out for those bad and evil boys who will take that game away from her unless she builds a girls-only team and stops playing with that little boy. (in otherwords, put a big resentful chip on her shoulder for when she grows up). Oh, and in the meantime, make the little boy cry once a day for the actions of his grandpa, but don't tell him that, just tell him he's bad.

I would think that each parent can determine how to raise their kids. They have more options than the two you give here. Historical perspectives are always good to teach. It gives you an idea of how the world changes and how it stays the same.

Raising Our Athletic Daughters is another good book that provides many ideas how sports teach many of life's lessons. It also discusses how all of a sudden at puberty sports may become 'undesirable' or un-lady-like and how to deal with that.

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It's a real issue, do we project our bad experiences on the youth because we still feel the pain? or do we raise them with the expectations of correctness without subjecting them to that pain? Lessons in morality can be made without having to point at some 'bad guy'.

I think your 'new generation' issue isn't an 'issue', it's a statement of victory and that we're growing out of these petty differences. We should revel in it, not be in denial and force our kids to relive those times.

The issue is teach the history, whether it's women's history, skydiving history, physics history, the Holocaust or what ever subject. That way you appreciate the advancements.

A great book on the History of Women's sports in the 20th century is Coming On Strong by Susan Cahn.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Tonto 1]

The feminists are the freedom fighters, and the chauvanists are the despotic dictators.

Long live the resistance!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[rehmwa 2]

I was only speaking to the establishment of separatists groups and the motiviation of the more extreme element to perpetuate terrible behavior onto their offspring.

Consider that we can certainly teach history without escalations that create separatist groups based on situations that do not apply today. The trick is to understand history, not let it evoke an unreasonable and emotional response. Those groups train a behavior we are supposed to be evolving away from and maintain stereotypes, not eliminate them or make them based on the positives.

As a society, we don't tend to fix problems, we tend to overreact to problems. That is the history lesson that needs to be learned.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyyd1ve 0]

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> (for example, women still earn $0.75 for every $1.00 that a man earns).

Let me ask you this, then.

Let's say working men and working women both make an average of $20 an hour. But for every 100 men that work, 75 women work and 25 prefer to stay home and take care of the kids. Their average is therefore $20/hr men, $15/hr women. Is that fair? Must women make more than men to make it fair?

i don't understand how you got those numbers or where you are going with this..?
sorry =(

[Ron 7]

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oh, but it is true...

Actually its not.

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http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2005/politics/men-earn-more/

Argues Warren Farrell, women earn less because of the career decisions they make; moreover, he suggests that when pay is compared for the same actual amount of productivity, women actually make as much or slightly more than men. Maybe both genders can learn something worthwhile from this book about career choices and their impact on quality of life.

Farrell, W. (2005) Why Mean Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap — and What Women Can Do About It. New York: American Management Association.[Amazon UK | Amazon US]

Why Men Earn More argues that while discrimination sometimes plays a part, both men and women unconsciously make trade-offs that affect how much they earn. Farrell clearly defines the 25 different workplace choices that affect women’s and men’s incomes—including putting in more hours at work, taking riskier jobs or more hazardous assignments, being willing to change location, and training for technical jobs that involve less people contact—and provides readers with specific, research-supported ways for women to earn higher pay.
Why Men Earn More, with its brashness in the face of political correctness, is sure to ignite a storm of media controversy that will help to make this thoroughly pragmatic exposè Warren Farrell’s next bestseller.

About the Author:

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Warren Farrell, Ph.D. (Carlsbad, CA) is an internationally esteemed expert on gender issues, and the only man to have been elected three times to the board of directors of the National Organization for Women (NOW) in New York City. Financial Times named Dr. Farrell one of the world’s leading thought leaders. He has been interviewed by Larry King, Peter Jennings, and Barbara Walters, and has appeared many times on nationally syndicated TV shows such as Oprah, Donahue, and CNN’s Sonya Live. He is the author of many books, including the bestsellers Why Men are the Way They Are and The Myth of Male Power.

Some of the reasons he states is:

* Men tend to work more physically demanding jobs that pay better.

* Men tend to work more and worse shifts.

* Men tend to spend more time working prefering money to a home life, while women tend to make choices that are more focused on a family than moving up.

* Many women take family are out a few mths to a few years to rasie children. This damages the career path sicne they are not in the work place..My own Mother took a few years off to raise us, and suffered due to being out of the workforce.

*Men ask for rasies more. Men will risk his current job to get a raise.

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http://www.hardatwork.com/Escalator/raise.html

Ask for a raise. This is absolutely basic, but it's amazing how few people actually do it. Sometimes people don't want to put the boss on the spot, or run the risk of being turned down. But if you don't ask, everybody thinks you're satisfied. Research shows that women ask for raises even less frequently than men. Natalie Eldridge, a career counselor at the University of Texas, says: "Women don't ask for a raise as often as men simply because they don't usually think of it. Though they think they're worth a raise, they wonder if they're worthy of one. But if you put your request in non-threatening terms, the worst that will happen is that you won't get your increase . . . but if you don't ask, you'll never get one."

There are other reasons.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

Ask any woman, "Were you ever told that you had other options than a 9-5 job?" Women will say, "stay at home mother".

Ask a guy the same question. "Crack dealer" is arguably a career.

We need to get away from the idea that there are two classes of adults.

[skydiverton 0]

Women are supperior above men, but only when washing dishes

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[bobsled92 0]

Economically speaking: The economy has taken ADVANTAGE of the situation and forced women to HAVE to get jobs that require a certain level of pay to afford the cost of living.
Women that want to be "stay at home Moms" cannot afford to do so anymore because of the IDEA of 2 income homes being the norm and now cars, house etc can be based on 2 incomes rather than one.
My wife runs the "Mom's group" at out Church and the repeated subject of the group and other area groups reflects this problem in constant discussion.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[kallend 1,651]

Women are definitely discriminated against in academia. The route to tenure at a typical research university is quite incompatible with pregnancy and childrearing. Women academics tend to end up in untenured positions or leaving. Condi Rice was definitely an exception.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.