jdhill 0 #26 March 7, 2005 QuoteJose Padilla. US citizen arrested within the US and taken overseas so US laws would not apply. What ever dumbass lawyer in the DoJ or DoD that said that would be OK needs to go back to lawschool. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #27 March 7, 2005 QuoteOne aspect I find sad about this is that the CIA can't cover their tracks better... Yes. If 60 minutes is calling them out... they've got other problems. If they're gonna do it, do it right at least.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #28 March 7, 2005 QuoteThe thing that bothers me is many will think 5% is ok if the persons in that 5% are not Americans, and that will just breed hate and rightfully so I might add. I don't know many folks who are part of the "many" you're talking about. In general, the vast majority of people I've talked to about these sorts of issues are just as concerned (or not) about mistakes when made with Americans and non-Americans.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #29 March 7, 2005 Quote In my opinion, it sucks that it has to exist... but it IS necessary to have this kind of operation going on. Running this sort of operation is necessary to keep the politicians in office. They need to do something before the next election so their opponent can't point out how soft they are in the war on terrorism. We'll have terrorism as long as we have royally pissed off people willing to accept the public relations problems that go with terrorism. Given the number of people who don't like us and lack the resources to fight us in a conventional war it's surprising we don't have more. Identification requirements, prohibitions on traveling with eyelash curlers, and bank account monitoring aren't going to stop people willing to risk death for their cause. We can't change this. Doing nothing won't have a real effect on terrorists. Passing no new laws and setting no precedent will make it harder to hold suspected terrorists on secret charges or ship them to foreign countries for processing. While today's suspected terrorist is probably a brown-skinned Muslim living here (Padilla) or abroad, tomorrow's may be a white patriot dissident citizen quoting Jefferson "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" or a European whose country will accept a few mistakes. This ignores the fact that terrorism is not a real problem for America. In the last decade we've lost orders of magnitudes more to drunk drivers than we have in terrorist attacks (notably 9/11, Oklahoma City, and the 1993 WTC bombing). Terrorism is less likely to hurt me than an over-sized SUV, renters contaminating my property with a calndestine meth lab, or even my own government kicking down my door. It's too bad the average voter doesn't realize this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #30 March 7, 2005 I did read. It seems you didn’t or missed the points you didn’t want to see. I know many that only hear and see what they want so they can go on with their false beliefs. Did you read about the guy in Germany? They got him because they mixed up names. So is that ok? Vietnam and Korea you do remember that we were at war with them right? They didn’t go to the pilots’ hometown and kidnap them. Please don’t give that oh were the criminals BS. I don’t hate America as a matter of fact I love this country. But I was also brought up to speak up when I see injustice. I was brought up to believe all people should have the same rights regardless of their religion, race, color or nationality. I don’t judge a whole nation or religion by the actions of a few I know better.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #31 March 7, 2005 QuoteI don't know many folks who are part of the "many" you're talking about. In general, the vast majority of people I've talked to about these sorts of issues are just as concerned (or not) about mistakes when made with Americans and non-Americans. Brother you have no idea how much I hope that your rightI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,122 #32 March 7, 2005 We talk about other countries, and their spiriting people away to be tortured. Pinochet did it in Chile; lots of people did it in Brazil and Argentina (heck, in Argentina there's a whole name for them "Los desaparecidos"). I'll bet the authorities in those countries thought they were probably guilty, too. In fact, based on a book I'm reading, that's exactly how they convinced themselves it was the right thing to do. The one thing that gave me a small inkling of hope (if the guy wasn't lying) was that he said that the information that was gotten was high-quality, and that you don't get good quality information from torture. I sure hope it was high-quality, because, well, you generally don't get good-quality information from torture. But if you think to yourself that other countries are barbaric because they attach cables to testicles, is it really that far away to figure out just exactly how far you go before it's unacceptable torture? Some of these guys are really bad. Removing them from the mainstream, and eliminating contact, will do as much to fuck up networks as many other things. It will also avoid the problem of having other countries hate you and denigrate you for what you're doing. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,122 #33 March 7, 2005 I'll agree with Tom, that most people I know seem to think what's wrong is wrong. The problem is that often the most extreme viewpoints get plenty of play, because the internet is so easy. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #34 March 7, 2005 QuoteI did read. It seems you didn’t or missed the points you didn’t want to see. I know many that only hear and see what they want so they can go on with their false beliefs. Keep thinking that. I replied to your post that people would be outraged if the KGB had taken Americans. You never specified where they'd be taken from. Before you jump all over me, know what you wrote. QuoteDid you read about the guy in Germany? They got him because they mixed up names. So is that ok? Yeah, I read about him... that was the guy you said was tortured, when he himself said he wasn't. Is it okay that he was grabbed? No, it was a mistake. I should hope the people doing the grabbing learned a lesson. QuoteVietnam and Korea you do remember that we were at war with them right? They didn’t go to the pilots’ hometown and kidnap them. I'd say we were at war with terrorists too. We just don't have a central battlefield to openly engage them, do you think that makes a difference? QuotePlease don’t give that oh were the criminals BS. I didn't say they WERE criminals, I said they are suspected of being criminals. There's an important difference there. You cried "racism" that the US wants to travel and grab people overseas... I refuted you by saying were it not for the racist elitist attitudes of the terrorists, we wouldn't be engaged in grabbing suspected terrorists. The difference is, we wouldn't be hurting innocent people or kidnapping them if there weren't people out there trying to hurt us. Do you not believe that? QuoteI don’t hate America as a matter of fact I love this country. But I was also brought up to speak up... Did I ever say you hated America? Look, for someone accusing me of hearing only what I want to hear... you've got some work to do. If you can't see the difference between people who purposely attack and kill civilians because we're "infidels" and the people who go out and try to apprehend those same people... I can't help you.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #35 March 7, 2005 Quote Nope, I don't think so. The hatred began before things like this happened, so did terrorism. It's just another convenient excuse for people to use to justify their hate for the US. The hatred began back during the Cold War when US foreign policy was driven entirely by the myopic "our enemies enemy is our friend" principle. As a result the US backed up every crackpot dictator and totalitarian regime that claimed to be "anti-communist". Examples: the Shah of Iran and Saddam Hussein. The US govt would support an Arab dictatorship with the idea it was supporting the Arab people in the country. But from the perspective of the people, the US was supporting the govt that was victimizing them, and therefore the US was part of the problem, not the solution. The hatred also began when the US blindly supported the creation of Israel, and it's policy of driving Palestinians off of land they had inhabited for hundreds of years, justified by the claim that "God gave this land to the Jewish people". And now the US has adopted all of the tactics of the Gestapo and the KGB. Every time this crap comes out in the news, it only legitimizes what the terrorists have been saying, and further erodes US support and credibility in the world."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #36 March 7, 2005 I can't help you.Quote I am not the one in need of help here. I have always been able to see both sides. read the post right below your last one that should explain a few things.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #37 March 7, 2005 Thanks for the history lesson. Was I talking about the origins of terrorism, or just how this "discovery" that we'll go get people on the downlow would be another excuse for people to justify their hatred? QuoteThe hatred began back during the Cold War when US foreign policy was driven entirely by the myopic "our enemies enemy is our friend" principle... It's a real miracle we don't see Vietnamese and Korean terrorists, isn't it? Just an interesting example you forgot. Quote...the US blindly supported the creation of Israel, and it's policy of driving Palestinians off of land ... Your incomplete recount of history is pretty telling to your views and what I can expect to hear from you in the future. No matter what people like you will ever say... I will never beleive that a people who deliberately target and kill civilians just because they're white/black/American/Asian/Whatever... have any legitimacy whatsoever. For you not to see the difference tells me we have nothing to discuss, only more back and forth that won't convince anyone of anything.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #38 March 7, 2005 QuoteI am not the one in need of help here. I have always been able to see both sides. What "sides" are you talking about. Feel free to address me when you've read my posts. Quoteread the post right below your last one that should explain a few things. Since you seem to see things the same way, my reply to him applies to you.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #39 March 7, 2005 ***What planet are you from? I have a hard time to hear someone from "the land of the free" say that it is OK to deprive human beings of due process. If you feel that the constitution really does not matter, then what are you defending? Please tell me I misunderstood you. Uhhh...... because our constitutional guarantees don't apply to them............because they aren't US citizens........ because they are outside US territory..... and yes the constitution does matter to me...........that's why I choose to live here and in not in socialist Europe And you call Terrorists "human beings"..........oh wait a minute,maybe in Europe,you do call people that would indiscriminately kill innocent men,women and children" human beings"Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Maggotry 0 #40 March 7, 2005 You gotta admit you'd be pretty pissed off in the French snatched your mother/freefly buddy, beat 'im up for five month and then dumped him in Bulgaria, right? I guess the question to be asked is this: would you think it was fair if it happened to you or a loved one? I dunno why there's a distinction based on race/religion/nationality/ethnicity. People are people. Same hopes and dreams, most of 'em. You dudes fought like hell to get the nazis outta Europe. Dontcha think it's sort of wrong to use their methods? I mean I can see the need for good intel in the fight against terror, but to use any and all means? Slippery slope, that is. Ain't too much of a step going from torturing foreign nationals to using persuasive methods on Americans. I might be wrong though dude. This just doesn't sound like the way to fly to me. [edit] last lines for mark, not you trent :)] Oh yeah; about Europe: if you *really* want to be good at extracting info from terrorists, talk to the French or the Brits. They've had terrorism for decades and are pretty good at doing the dirty job. I've got friends in Iraq wearing nice camo fatigues right now. Your words are pretty strong considering a good deal of us (Euros) actually supported and support the overthrowing on Hussein and the overall war on terrorism.Our guys are dying over there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rasmack 0 #41 March 7, 2005 Quotebecause they aren't US citizens........ Thank you for that clarification. Someone once wrote: Quote We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights Apparently you don't believe that any more.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #42 March 7, 2005 QuoteYou gotta admit you'd be pretty pissed off in the French snatched your mother/freefly buddy, beat 'im up for five month and then dumped him in Bulgaria, right? Yes, I would be. I never said that their mistake in grabbing this guy was okay. I said I hope they learned from it. I also would hope that it doesn't happen again. I can, however, see the necessity in operations like this. Until there is a better way, what would you suggest we do? QuoteI dunno why there's a distinction based on race/religion/nationality/ethnicity. People are people. Same hopes and dreams, most of 'em. You're right, there shouldn't be any ethnicity or anything associated with it. It just so happens that, at the moment, we seem to be looking for Islamic fundamentalists who planning to, or have, attacked the US in some way. Someone else called the US racist for this practice of covert apprehensions. QuoteYou dudes fought like hell to get the nazis outta Europe. Dontcha think it's sort of wrong to use their methods? I mean I can see the need for good intel in the fight against terror, but to use any and all means? I hardly think that grabbing suspected terrorists in foreign countries is using any and all means. Would these people arguing against this practice be upset if it were Osama bin Laden that was grabbed? We haven't given him due process yet have we? Should we avoid picking him up just because he says he hates the US and has planned to attack it, or should we wait until we convict him then try to get him? QuoteSlippery slope, that is. Ain't too much of a step going from torturing foreign nationals to using persuasive methods on Americans. If there is GOOD reason to believe that a US citizen has done something like this, I'm all for his apprehension and questioning. Since, as Wendy points out, torture doesn't always yield good intel... I'd suggest we get the info another way. And as the article at the beginning of this post points out, the guy who was mistakenly grabbed was not tortured. So if we're the great evil that so many claim, why would we not have tortured that guy too? As I said, it sucks that it is happening... but it wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a perceived need for it. Until a better way of REALLY finding out what is going on with SUSPECTED terrorists is found... what would you suggest we do? I just hope that since it IS happening, that they take better care on who they pick up.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,384 #43 March 7, 2005 QuoteThanks for the history lesson. Was I talking about the origins of terrorism, or just how this "discovery" that we'll go get people on the downlow would be another excuse for people to justify their hatred? You are confusing justifying hatred with justifying actions. Their hatred can be justified. Targeting civilans cannot. QuoteIt's a real miracle we don't see Vietnamese and Korean terrorists, isn't it? Just an interesting example you forgot. In case you forgot, the US got the hell out of VN in 1974 and hasn't meddled in VN since then. SK is a thriving democracy, and NK is entirely under the thumb of a a very effective authoritarian regime that has isolated the country. Neither environment is conducive to a thriving terrorist organization."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #44 March 7, 2005 QuoteYou are confusing justifying hatred with justifying actions. Their hatred can be justified. Targeting civilans cannot. I am not confusing anything. Their hatred allows them to justify their actions against civilians. I'm not saying it makes any logical sense, but in their minds it seems to work. QuoteIn case you forgot, the US got the hell out of VN in 1974 and hasn't meddled in VN since then. In case YOU forgot, while we were "meddling" in Vietnam, we were supporting a regime in the South that many people says was incredibly paranoid and brutal. We also ran operations where we kidnapped people suspected of being VC or agents of the NVA. We also pulled out, leaving many people we said we'd help behind. You don't think that they were pissed off about that? You don't think that people in Vietnam were angry with the US for our involvement there? I'd say it is an even better example than the ones you used since we were directly and actively involved there, as opposed to just monetary and material support. QuoteSK is a thriving democracy, and NK is entirely under the thumb of a a very effective authoritarian regime that has isolated the country. So how would that prevent people in the South from being angry that we maintain a presence there? Or from dividing their countries, or for supporting a war that killed relatives? Again, there are reasons for people to be angry here too, and they are, there have been many protests against the US in S.Korea. But we still don't see them doing what they're doing in the ME. There are many people who have reasons to hate some other group or government. Some get past it and try to make things better. Others use that to justify their abhorrent actions. For those who chose to go on the attack, they (and you) should understand that our government probably won't be very nice to them.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #45 March 7, 2005 The problem with these types of operations is we really don’t know what happens to the people who they take. We have no way of knowing how many innocent people might have been killed, raped, or tutored. There is no system to stop abuse. Even when there were we had the prison scandal I wonder what the torturers do when they are sure they don’t have to answer to any one. When you have a government who takes part in something like this it gets very hard to believe in truth, justice and the American way. If we are claiming to be different. If we are claiming to be a nation who cares about human rights then where does torture fit? We can’t claim to be the beacon of freedom when we are kidnapping people from their homes.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,384 #46 March 7, 2005 Quote In case YOU forgot, while we were "meddling" in Vietnam, we were supporting a regime in the South that many people says was incredibly paranoid and brutal. We also ran operations where we kidnapped people suspected of being VC or agents of the NVA. We also pulled out, leaving many people we said we'd help behind. You don't think that they were pissed off about that? You don't think that people in Vietnam were angry with the US for our involvement there? I'd say it is an even better example than the ones you used since we were directly and actively involved there, as opposed to just monetary and material support. If you really want to dwell on Vietnam, then go look up the history of how the Geneva Conference of 1954 decreed that VN was to hold open elections to unify the country, but the US backed out of the agreement because the US govt feared that open elections would allow the Communists too much influence. I was in college when I ran across this claim. I couldn't believe it, so I did some research in the library. Every book I found, confirmed it. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war#Origins"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,384 #47 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuotebecause they aren't US citizens........ Thank you for that clarification. Someone once wrote: Quote We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights Apparently you don't believe that any more. That quote is still in there??? I thought Ashcroft had it removed."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #48 March 7, 2005 ***That quote is still in there??? I thought Ashcroft had it removed. Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #49 March 7, 2005 Don't feel bad, this happens all the time here. People forget the real intent of a post because they are hell-bent on arguing anything brought up. Unfortunately for you, this time, it further proves my point that your "excuses" for the arab world to hate us, is no better than countries like Vietnam could have... only some countries and people chose not to become terrorists. That was why Vietnam was brought up. Remember? Until you or someone has a realistic and better idea of how we should apprehend terror suspects abroad who are considered high priority, we have this method. And while not perfect, regrettably, it must have some value... because like I said, the evil capitalists that we are, I doubt it'd continue to get funding if it didn't amount to anything.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #50 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteGov't should make it up to them somehow Hard to do that without admitting that they did it in the first place, deniablity is the point of a clandestine operation... One aspect I find sad about this is that the CIA can't cover their tracks better... J They probably don't care. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Trent 0 #37 March 7, 2005 Thanks for the history lesson. Was I talking about the origins of terrorism, or just how this "discovery" that we'll go get people on the downlow would be another excuse for people to justify their hatred? QuoteThe hatred began back during the Cold War when US foreign policy was driven entirely by the myopic "our enemies enemy is our friend" principle... It's a real miracle we don't see Vietnamese and Korean terrorists, isn't it? Just an interesting example you forgot. Quote...the US blindly supported the creation of Israel, and it's policy of driving Palestinians off of land ... Your incomplete recount of history is pretty telling to your views and what I can expect to hear from you in the future. No matter what people like you will ever say... I will never beleive that a people who deliberately target and kill civilians just because they're white/black/American/Asian/Whatever... have any legitimacy whatsoever. For you not to see the difference tells me we have nothing to discuss, only more back and forth that won't convince anyone of anything.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #38 March 7, 2005 QuoteI am not the one in need of help here. I have always been able to see both sides. What "sides" are you talking about. Feel free to address me when you've read my posts. Quoteread the post right below your last one that should explain a few things. Since you seem to see things the same way, my reply to him applies to you.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #39 March 7, 2005 ***What planet are you from? I have a hard time to hear someone from "the land of the free" say that it is OK to deprive human beings of due process. If you feel that the constitution really does not matter, then what are you defending? Please tell me I misunderstood you. Uhhh...... because our constitutional guarantees don't apply to them............because they aren't US citizens........ because they are outside US territory..... and yes the constitution does matter to me...........that's why I choose to live here and in not in socialist Europe And you call Terrorists "human beings"..........oh wait a minute,maybe in Europe,you do call people that would indiscriminately kill innocent men,women and children" human beings"Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maggotry 0 #40 March 7, 2005 You gotta admit you'd be pretty pissed off in the French snatched your mother/freefly buddy, beat 'im up for five month and then dumped him in Bulgaria, right? I guess the question to be asked is this: would you think it was fair if it happened to you or a loved one? I dunno why there's a distinction based on race/religion/nationality/ethnicity. People are people. Same hopes and dreams, most of 'em. You dudes fought like hell to get the nazis outta Europe. Dontcha think it's sort of wrong to use their methods? I mean I can see the need for good intel in the fight against terror, but to use any and all means? Slippery slope, that is. Ain't too much of a step going from torturing foreign nationals to using persuasive methods on Americans. I might be wrong though dude. This just doesn't sound like the way to fly to me. [edit] last lines for mark, not you trent :)] Oh yeah; about Europe: if you *really* want to be good at extracting info from terrorists, talk to the French or the Brits. They've had terrorism for decades and are pretty good at doing the dirty job. I've got friends in Iraq wearing nice camo fatigues right now. Your words are pretty strong considering a good deal of us (Euros) actually supported and support the overthrowing on Hussein and the overall war on terrorism.Our guys are dying over there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #41 March 7, 2005 Quotebecause they aren't US citizens........ Thank you for that clarification. Someone once wrote: Quote We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights Apparently you don't believe that any more.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #42 March 7, 2005 QuoteYou gotta admit you'd be pretty pissed off in the French snatched your mother/freefly buddy, beat 'im up for five month and then dumped him in Bulgaria, right? Yes, I would be. I never said that their mistake in grabbing this guy was okay. I said I hope they learned from it. I also would hope that it doesn't happen again. I can, however, see the necessity in operations like this. Until there is a better way, what would you suggest we do? QuoteI dunno why there's a distinction based on race/religion/nationality/ethnicity. People are people. Same hopes and dreams, most of 'em. You're right, there shouldn't be any ethnicity or anything associated with it. It just so happens that, at the moment, we seem to be looking for Islamic fundamentalists who planning to, or have, attacked the US in some way. Someone else called the US racist for this practice of covert apprehensions. QuoteYou dudes fought like hell to get the nazis outta Europe. Dontcha think it's sort of wrong to use their methods? I mean I can see the need for good intel in the fight against terror, but to use any and all means? I hardly think that grabbing suspected terrorists in foreign countries is using any and all means. Would these people arguing against this practice be upset if it were Osama bin Laden that was grabbed? We haven't given him due process yet have we? Should we avoid picking him up just because he says he hates the US and has planned to attack it, or should we wait until we convict him then try to get him? QuoteSlippery slope, that is. Ain't too much of a step going from torturing foreign nationals to using persuasive methods on Americans. If there is GOOD reason to believe that a US citizen has done something like this, I'm all for his apprehension and questioning. Since, as Wendy points out, torture doesn't always yield good intel... I'd suggest we get the info another way. And as the article at the beginning of this post points out, the guy who was mistakenly grabbed was not tortured. So if we're the great evil that so many claim, why would we not have tortured that guy too? As I said, it sucks that it is happening... but it wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a perceived need for it. Until a better way of REALLY finding out what is going on with SUSPECTED terrorists is found... what would you suggest we do? I just hope that since it IS happening, that they take better care on who they pick up.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #43 March 7, 2005 QuoteThanks for the history lesson. Was I talking about the origins of terrorism, or just how this "discovery" that we'll go get people on the downlow would be another excuse for people to justify their hatred? You are confusing justifying hatred with justifying actions. Their hatred can be justified. Targeting civilans cannot. QuoteIt's a real miracle we don't see Vietnamese and Korean terrorists, isn't it? Just an interesting example you forgot. In case you forgot, the US got the hell out of VN in 1974 and hasn't meddled in VN since then. SK is a thriving democracy, and NK is entirely under the thumb of a a very effective authoritarian regime that has isolated the country. Neither environment is conducive to a thriving terrorist organization."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #44 March 7, 2005 QuoteYou are confusing justifying hatred with justifying actions. Their hatred can be justified. Targeting civilans cannot. I am not confusing anything. Their hatred allows them to justify their actions against civilians. I'm not saying it makes any logical sense, but in their minds it seems to work. QuoteIn case you forgot, the US got the hell out of VN in 1974 and hasn't meddled in VN since then. In case YOU forgot, while we were "meddling" in Vietnam, we were supporting a regime in the South that many people says was incredibly paranoid and brutal. We also ran operations where we kidnapped people suspected of being VC or agents of the NVA. We also pulled out, leaving many people we said we'd help behind. You don't think that they were pissed off about that? You don't think that people in Vietnam were angry with the US for our involvement there? I'd say it is an even better example than the ones you used since we were directly and actively involved there, as opposed to just monetary and material support. QuoteSK is a thriving democracy, and NK is entirely under the thumb of a a very effective authoritarian regime that has isolated the country. So how would that prevent people in the South from being angry that we maintain a presence there? Or from dividing their countries, or for supporting a war that killed relatives? Again, there are reasons for people to be angry here too, and they are, there have been many protests against the US in S.Korea. But we still don't see them doing what they're doing in the ME. There are many people who have reasons to hate some other group or government. Some get past it and try to make things better. Others use that to justify their abhorrent actions. For those who chose to go on the attack, they (and you) should understand that our government probably won't be very nice to them.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #45 March 7, 2005 The problem with these types of operations is we really don’t know what happens to the people who they take. We have no way of knowing how many innocent people might have been killed, raped, or tutored. There is no system to stop abuse. Even when there were we had the prison scandal I wonder what the torturers do when they are sure they don’t have to answer to any one. When you have a government who takes part in something like this it gets very hard to believe in truth, justice and the American way. If we are claiming to be different. If we are claiming to be a nation who cares about human rights then where does torture fit? We can’t claim to be the beacon of freedom when we are kidnapping people from their homes.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #46 March 7, 2005 Quote In case YOU forgot, while we were "meddling" in Vietnam, we were supporting a regime in the South that many people says was incredibly paranoid and brutal. We also ran operations where we kidnapped people suspected of being VC or agents of the NVA. We also pulled out, leaving many people we said we'd help behind. You don't think that they were pissed off about that? You don't think that people in Vietnam were angry with the US for our involvement there? I'd say it is an even better example than the ones you used since we were directly and actively involved there, as opposed to just monetary and material support. If you really want to dwell on Vietnam, then go look up the history of how the Geneva Conference of 1954 decreed that VN was to hold open elections to unify the country, but the US backed out of the agreement because the US govt feared that open elections would allow the Communists too much influence. I was in college when I ran across this claim. I couldn't believe it, so I did some research in the library. Every book I found, confirmed it. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war#Origins"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #47 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuotebecause they aren't US citizens........ Thank you for that clarification. Someone once wrote: Quote We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights Apparently you don't believe that any more. That quote is still in there??? I thought Ashcroft had it removed."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #48 March 7, 2005 ***That quote is still in there??? I thought Ashcroft had it removed. Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #49 March 7, 2005 Don't feel bad, this happens all the time here. People forget the real intent of a post because they are hell-bent on arguing anything brought up. Unfortunately for you, this time, it further proves my point that your "excuses" for the arab world to hate us, is no better than countries like Vietnam could have... only some countries and people chose not to become terrorists. That was why Vietnam was brought up. Remember? Until you or someone has a realistic and better idea of how we should apprehend terror suspects abroad who are considered high priority, we have this method. And while not perfect, regrettably, it must have some value... because like I said, the evil capitalists that we are, I doubt it'd continue to get funding if it didn't amount to anything.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #50 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteGov't should make it up to them somehow Hard to do that without admitting that they did it in the first place, deniablity is the point of a clandestine operation... One aspect I find sad about this is that the CIA can't cover their tracks better... J They probably don't care. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
