Gay men/ rare STD/ and spreading HIV!

[storm1977 0]

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but most of the hype against gay AIDS isn't about concern for life, concern for tax enpenditures, or even concern for public safety, it's about designation and eventual legislation of morality.

Back that up... OR is this just your opinion?

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

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So then you're saying straight white people should have no social responsibility AND, having unwanted, neglected, often physically and mentally abused children is preferable to adults suffering their own consequences??? I'm done with this tread.

Nope, but if the problem is largest in one group, mainly due to the fact that the ACT of anal sex is more likely to spread a disease than let's say vaginal sex, then I would target that group.

Now, do hetero's do anal? Yes.
Do they do it with the frequecy and is the disease spreading as rapidly through them as it is with the
male gay community? No.

So, again I would target the Gay community.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

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Of course, you're a skydiver (i think...), so you are in one particular "high risk group", yourself.

As an aside, I wonder if you ever did have a skydiving accident and break your tib/fib and femur, would you expect others to pay for it? Or, would you turn down the insurance money, and insist to pay the hospital the full cash price, just on principle? Clearly, you risk such injury by engaging in such a risky sport.

Here is where I think your "Skydiver" analogy is wrong.

Skydiving is the ACT... It could be compared to the act of Sex.
Both have inherent risks associated with them. Is is more risky than say... driving a car 20,000 miles a year?

So, in order to PROTECT myself while skydiving I have a RESERVE parachute. While engaging in sex one can use a condom for protection....

You following so far.
Sex : Skydiving
Condom : Reserve Chute

Having unprotected anal sex with someone who is KNOWN to be HIV+ or has AIDs is the equivilent of Jumping out of a plane with no reserve chute and KNOWING there is a 60% chance of having a major Malfunction.

But that's OK with you right....
It doesn't matter that health care cost are astounding.
This type of personal behavior is Fine with you right?

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Botellines 0]

At the end of the day, you cannot get 44% of VIH. Either you get it or you don´t.
The sluttiest white heterosexual male have by far much more chances to get STD than the shiest gay. You can get your ass reamed everyday by a VIH positive gay and if you are lucky you will not catch anything, in the other hand, if you have bad luck you can get HIV the very first day you lose your virginity.
I know that there is diferent chances to get STD for doing this or that, but it only means that you have to have unprotected sex two times for everytime a gay does it, so what? are you willing to take the risk.
That is why statistics don´t really mean much when trying to decide who to target, just target everybody. See, little virus do not understand wether the host is gay or straight, the viruses do not have an agenda unlike some legislators.

[Ron 7]

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That is why statistics don´t really mean much when trying to decide who to target, just target everybody. See, little virus do not understand wether the host is gay or straight, the viruses do not have an agenda unlike some legislators.

You have to target someone...there is not enough money to target everyone.

If Gays and Black Women are the highest risk groups...They should be the ones targeted.

It's not racism, it's not bigotry....It's doing the most you can with what you have.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Casurf1978 0]

You're throwing a lot of hype at us w/o backing it up. You say that HIV/AIDS costs the healthcare system money. Where are these figures coming from? How much money is it costing us? You state that theres a 'gay lobby' group hiding figure yet you provide no data as to the group or the real figures. Then you say the following:

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Having unprotected anal sex with someone who is KNOWN to be HIV+ or has AIDs is the equivilent of Jumping out of a plane with no reserve chute and KNOWING there is a 60% chance of having a major Malfunction.

Have you done your research as to the varing infections rates between different types of sexual activities? Your statement is a huge assumption based on one partner telling the other he or she is positive and the other partner being a willing participant to have unprotected sex with someone who is HIV+. Again where are you getting this data from.

[AndyMan 7]

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Here is where I think your "Skydiver" analogy is wrong.

It wasn't an analogy. It was a question. I'm not surprised that you avoided answering it. I'm entertained by the notion that skydiving is "safe" if you use a reserve. I hope you see the obvious falacy. Skydiving isn't "safe", and you still risk major health care expenses, even if do you use a reserve. In the name of ethics, I hope you don't expect others to help pay for your injuries.

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But that's OK with you right....

Personally, no it's not.

I've been fascinated by the dichotomy you've shown by repeatedly making contradicting statements. You'll say "on one hand, I don't want people telling me what to do with my life, but on the other hand gay people shouldnt' do that icky, dangerous stuff".

I have no dichotomy. I don't want people telling me how to live my life, and I return the favor by not telling others how to live theirs.

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First, they came for the gays
and I did not speak out...

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[storm1977 0]

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I've been fascinated by the dichotomy you've shown by repeatedly making contradicting statements. You'll say "on one hand, I don't want people telling me what to do with my life, but on the other hand gay people shouldnt' do that icky, dangerous stuff".

I guess you didn't read what I wrote then.
I never said "I don't want people telling me what to do with my life" ....
I made a statement that people do tell me what to do and what not to do. I backed that up by saying the activities I am involved in such as smoking, cost the US tax payers money.... And that smoking or over eating are not good ideas.... I simple pointed out the Irony in a fat woman telling me smoking would kill me. Even you must be able to see the humor in that.

Earlier, you made a statement that the taxes on the cigarrests pay for the healthcare costs....WRONG. Didn't happen. Also, there was money give to each state after the Lawsuit against big tabacco... that didn't go to its intended target either.

As far as skydiving goes.... is it risky???? Compared to what? Yes it is risky, however, so is driving, so is sex, so is eating....

My statement was that when involved in Risky behavior, one should have a means to protect themselves. Does that mean accidents don'r happen??? NO, but it greatly reduceses them.

In skydiving we use reserves as back up. We use AADs , some people use RSLs ... etc.

When having sex (for purposes other than procreation) it would be smart to protect yourself from risk of infection by wearing a condom.
When having sex with an infected individual, not wearing a condom is the equivilent of what I said before.... jumping without a reserve have knowledge that there is a 60% chance you will have a major malfunction.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

here is just one instance...In CA where the taxpayers pay for AID meds.... THe Governer is trying to cut the program.

http://ga1.org/laglcan/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=315950

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

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R9E- AIDS/HIV STATISTICS IN MIAMI BEACH

The City Administration's report indicated that the Miami-Dade County Health Department reported a total of 24,137 Aids cases in Miami-Dade County; 2,388 of which were identified in the Miami Beach zip codes areas of 33139, 33140, and 33141. Of the Miami Beach AIDS cases reported, 2,212 are males, 93% of the total cases reported. The largest number of cases reported in Miami Beach is in the age group of 30-39 years of age. There are 1,174 cases reported in this age group, which represents 49 percent of the total number of cases reported. There were only six cases reported for ages 19 and younger.

The Race/Ethnicity breakdown of AIDS cases reported in Miami Beach indicates that 1,182, or close to half of all cases reported, are Hispanic. The second most affected group is White, Not Hispanic, with 1,023 cases reported, which represents 43 percent of all cases reported.

The Exposure Category reported by the Health Department also shows that the leading category of exposure to the HIV virus remains Men Who Have Sex With Men, with 1,700 cases reported, or 71 percent of all cases reported. The second exposure category listed is Injecting Drug Use, with 183 cases reported, or eight percent of all cases reported. In addition, the Health Department also reports that there are 759 HIV cases in Miami Beach (HIV carriers of the virus have not been clinically diagnosed with AIDS). Overall, the number of HIV/AIDS cases reported in Miami Beach is 3,147.

Based on these alarming statistics, I encourage all individuals who fall under these Exposure Categories to please protect themselves based on the recommendations of the Health Department.

For additional information, please contact Ms. Evlyn Ullah, Director of HIV/AIDS, Miami-Dade County Health Department at (305) 377-5022. Ms. Ullah will be able to provide you with information/literature regarding HIV/AIDS transmission and prevention. Her office can also provide information and data regarding HIV/AIDS in general.

from: http://www.miamibeachfl.gov/newcity/cityhall/garcia/nl062701.htm

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Casurf1978 0]

Both good articles, but the cost of treating 23.9K patients at $15K a year is 385M, when taken as a percentage of Ca's GDP, 1999 $1.3Trillion its aprox 0.0003%. Hardly a huge health care cost. I totally agree with you that knowingly having unprotected sex with an HIV+ indivual is f-ing stupid. Still that's no reason to deny them meds or let them die. In 1998 we, CA, spent more than 7.7Billion treating obesity related illnesses. In 1998 obesity and overweight related illnesses cost our, USA total, health care system 72B USD, 92B USD in 2002 dollars. Yet you dont see me saying withhold the meds from the fat people and let them die.

[storm1977 0]

I never implied we should denign them meds or let them die... I said we need to get the Gay community more involved in policing there own.... This is the whole point of the thread. If we as tax payers are paying 300million in CA for meds, wouldn't it be nice to only have to spend 50 on Safe Sex programs and 100 million on meds....

If we can get the Gay community to spend more time on awarness and prevention, it may save all of us money and heartache...

EXAMPLE: Again, I am a smoker.... Have you seen the "Truth" advertizing on TV. Haven't you noticed it is more and more difficult for smokers to smoke.... Eventually, there will be less and less smoking. That can only benefit everyone right? Whether it is financial, physical or emotional benefits.... It will help everyone (Except tabacco companies).

The same can be done with the AIDS problem in the Male Gay community.

My arguement at the beginning of this thread though was by saying this, I am immeadiatlely labled a homophobe.... Why? Because I think it is in everyones best interest to stop the Spread of AIDS?

The gay community can do something about this.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 2,433]

>I said we need to get the Gay community more involved in policing there own....

They are extremely involved. Go into any bookstore and look at what's available in the gay sexuality section. At one predominantly gay area on Fire Island, a volunteer group gave away 9000 condoms over the course of two years. (Conservatives, needless to say, are generally outraged by such things.)

>The gay community can do something about this.

They are.

[storm1977 0]

Giving out condoms doesn't teach Safe sex.... I am not saying it is a bad idea, but it is well known that people in posession of condoms are not that much more likely to use them just because they have them.....

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[kelel01 1]

Eh?

I think someone with a condom is going to be a lot more likely to use one than someone without a condom.

It's hard to use something you don't have.

And seriously, there's a HUGE anti-HIV movement in the homosexual community.

[billvon 2,433]

> Giving out condoms doesn't teach Safe sex....

No. But if 2000 are given away freely by a volunteer group, it means that people are using them for safe sex and it's not costing the government a dime - which is how things should work in an ideal world.

>I am not saying it is a bad idea, but it is well known that people in
>posession of condoms are not that much more likely to use them just
> because they have them.....

People who have them are a lot more likely to use them than people who don't have them. I don't know of anyone who has used a condom that wasn't there.

[storm1977 0]

Well, naturally you can't use what you don't have, but typically it is not the problem of "not having them". The problem is typically people not wanting to use them.

There is this"It won't happen to me" mentality in the general population...gay, straight, bi.... Simply hand out condoms doesn't help very much.

Like I said, it is not a BAD thing, however, someone payed for the 9000 condoms... Maybe that money would have been better spent on some sort of group meeting with a guest speaker... Someone directly affected by the disease.

Everything helps, don't get me wrong, but I can't imagine that passing out 1000's of condoms really address or fixes the problem.
The mindset of people needs to change.

Maybe I have unprotected sex all the time... Some group passes out condoms.... I take two of them. So, the next two times I go and use them. But once they are gone I go back to my old ways.
Again, they protected me those two times... and who knows, maybe that actually did prevent me from getting something, but that was a very temporary fix to a longterm and larger problem.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 2,433]

>Like I said, it is not a BAD thing, however, someone payed for the 9000
> condoms... Maybe that money would have been better spent on some
> sort of group meeting with a guest speaker...

--------------------------------
The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Community Center
NY, NY

Second Tuesdays Lecture Series

Created in 1985, the Second Tuesdays Lecture Series is the Center’s oldest cultural program, bringing prominent speakers from the arts, politics and academia to discuss issues relevant to the LGBT community. The March 1987 lecture, when guest speaker Larry Kramer spoke about the devastating plight of the AIDS crisis, was the founding meeting of ACT UP (AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power).


Tuesday, February 10, 2004
Fresh Perspectives Challenge Familiar Ideas on HIV Prevention and Gay and Bisexual Black Men

We welcome the creators of the new anthology, Think Again: Colin Robinson, Steven G. Fullwood and George Ayala. This is a ground-breaking book that may be the first of its kind to present essays and narratives about HIV risk and prevention by and for black men who have sex with other men. A short reading will be followed by a roundtable discussion of this work and its far-reaching implications.
----------------------------------

Google on "HIV 'guest speaker' gay" - I got 103,000 hits.

>Maybe I have unprotected sex all the time... Some group passes out
> condoms.... I take two of them. So, the next two times I go and use
>them. But once they are gone I go back to my old ways.
>Again, they protected me those two times... and who knows, maybe
> that actually did prevent me from getting something, but that was a
> very temporary fix to a longterm and larger problem.

And you realized that sex with condoms is quite doable. And if that volunteer group is still around, you just might take two more. Small steps, but enough small steps results in a lot of distance traveled.

[Ron 7]

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And you realized that sex with condoms is quite doable. And if that volunteer group is still around, you just might take two more. Small steps, but enough small steps results in a lot of distance traveled.

fixing the symptoms, not the problem.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,433]

>fixing the symptoms, not the problem.

The gay community is currently doing both. Most good programs do.

[Ron 7]

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>fixing the symptoms, not the problem.

The gay community is currently doing both. Most good programs do.

Im not saying they are not..but if you had to choose between fixing the symptoms, or the cause...Which would you target?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Botellines 0]

So how do you fix the cause? banning sex altogether? Though abstinence is beyond doubt the best way to avoid STD is quite utopical.

[Ron 7]

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So how do you fix the cause?

More focus on education people WHY then need protecting rather than just handing it out.

When I was in the Military on long weekends they would force us to take a condom before we left....Even me when I was married. It did not help any..Guys still got STD's (Bragg I believe was #2 of STD's in the Army)...Now once I had to take a guy down to the clinic so he could be "rodded off the range"...And them made him tell the story to the Platoon and tell them how it hurt like hell to pee, so bad that he HATED to piss.

Well the rate dropped in my platoon. See just handing out condoms does not fix the problem....Teaching WHY will.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Botellines 0]

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You have to target someone...there is not enough money to target everyone.

I would say that most if not all of the help towards preventing HIV comes from non guvernamental groups that do not charge for those services... I may be wrong, but i doubt money is a factor when working toward such a goal. In any case, you can see it as an inversion.

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If Gays and Black Women are the highest risk groups...They should be the ones targeted.

Maybe so, but if it was up to me, i would target the people who is in the most likely age to do stupid things ¿16-25?, or maybe middle school and high school students who are discovering sex.
I mean, gays are at higher risk if we group the population by sexual orientation, and black females if we group the population by gender and ethnicity, but there is all sort of grouping possible that will make the fight against HIV much more useful.

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It's not racism, it's not bigotry....It's doing the most you can with what you have.

You will agree with me that the government has an agenda. The government is trying to promote abstinence among the youth, and it is also well known the little simpathy it has for gay people. So if the government is to be consistent with his agenda, it will not give condoms in a high school and will have a bias about who contributes most to the spread of HIV/AIDS.

As i side note, i remember how hard it was for me when i was 16 to get a condom in a little town in colorado and how popular was having sex in that high school. A recipe for disater if you ask me.

[kelpdiver 2]

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but most of the hype against gay AIDS isn't about concern for life, concern for tax enpenditures, or even concern for public safety, it's about designation and eventual legislation of morality.

Back that up... OR is this just your opinion?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...your past postings and current ones on all powerful gay lobbies in DC (snicker) suggests we have a duck.

It wouldn't be the first time that someone picked an easy minority target while ignoring much bigger issues (but with a large stakeholder) - smokers, gays, motorcyclists, skydivers - all are easy to pick on. By default of their minority status you can claim their behavior isn't common sense, as shown by the fact that well over half the population won't do it.